Titegroup and the 357 mag

[paraord]

So my casting has expanded to my .357 mag. I never really put my 686 4" through the paces with the cost of 357 mag at the time, but now I'm shooting my 44 mag for 13 cents a round so why the heck not right? It should only be cheaper.

Anyways I have 3 powders that are all on the load data on my lyman. AA#9, IMR-4227, and now titegroup. I was up at my localendar shop and he had some so why not. It shows 3.1-3.5 grains for 38 special but nothing for .357 mag. Any suggestions on a max for the full .357 and titegroup? My cast boolit is the 358429.

[RogerDat]

Lots of loads shown at the Hodgdon online manual.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Select caliber, weight, then jump over to individual powders and pick titegroup rather than going through the brands. I selected all bullet weights and they had some load data for all of them.

[paraord]

I did that, for the 170 grain they had a jacketed sierra. What's the rule of thumb for charges recommend for jacketed and using them for cast?

[Walkingwolf]

I did that, for the 170 grain they had a jacketed sierra. What's the rule of thumb for charges recommend for jacketed and using them for cast?

Reduce by 10% and work your way up, keep in mind that cast may not have the same OAL, and probably will have more or less volume in the case depending on seating. I am using 3gr titegroup for 38spl, 167 grain PC LFP. 750fps out of a GP100 four inch, 650 with a two inch Rossi 352. Accurate with very very mild recoil.

[RogerDat]

I talked to Hodgdon at one time asking about this issue regarding a heavy bullet and they suggested for cast loads using jacketed data start with 70% of the max. That is multiply the max by .7 and you should have a safe start load without going down so low that there is not enough pressure for good load.

[tazman]

I talked to Hodgdon at one time asking about this issue regarding a heavy bullet and they suggested for cast loads using jacketed data start with 70% of the max. That is multiply the max by .7 and you should have a safe start load without going down so low that there is not enough pressure for good load.

That's good to know. There are many cast boolits weights that match some jacketed loads but have no data of their own. This gives a good place to start.

[swmass]

I load titegroup in 357. Works great for me. I load 5 grains under a 158 grain lee rnfp. Decent amount of crimp with the lee FCD. I believe these are max loads or damn near max. They shoot nice tight groups (no pun intended), give me enough kick for my liking when I'm not up for the w296 loads, and they are decently clean. Keeping in mind your boolits are gonna be 12 grains heavier.. I believe mine drop at 160. Not trying to give you any specific data, just throwing some info out there. I probably found that load on hodgdobs website but I can't remember. Try reducing the charge a bit to account for the weight and work your way up from there. Also keep in mind that the 5 grains I'm using is max for 158 grains. Give yourself enough room for the first load so you know you'll be alright and go from there. Stay safe.

[str8wal]

I load 4.8 grains and a 158 JHP. It is like 38+P in a 357 case. Easy shooting with a pretty good punch.

[Blackwater]

The problem you're dealing with is that lead bullets are easier to push down the barrel than jacketed IF you're using fast powders AND loading to basic .38 or .38+P pressures. The lead bullets usually give higher velocity because they're easier to push down the barrel, too, and the lube probably may be another factor. When you start getting up there in pressure, though, lead, being softer than J-bullets, CAN at least sometimes and in some circumstances, produce MORE pressure. What I think happens here is that the bullet, on ignition, answers to inertia and wants to remain still. When all that pressure hits its back end, the front of the bullet still wants to sit still, and the pressure on the back is pushing, there's nothing to do but for the middle of the bullet to expand outward, pressing it ever more tightly against the cylinder/barrel walls. Varied alloy may do this to a greater or lesser extent. Ultimately, the answer to what kind of pressures and charges are OK in .357, the answer must be "it depends."

Having said that, I'll say that I once shot a lot of 142 gr. Lee SWCHP's ahead of 5.0 gr. of 700-X in .357, and it was less than a max. load according to the primers. That powder is very close to Titegroup, and if it were me, I think I'd probably start at 4.0 or if I were really wanting some velocity (even if not max - slower powders will be needed for max. vel.) maybe 4.5 gr. Keep a VERY close watch on your primers, and if they appear ANY more flattened than a full factory .357, reduce the load. I suspect something on the order of 4.7 to 4.8 gr. will likely give you happiness, if it's to be found with this wt. bullet, but never having tried it, that's just a suspicion, and NOT a recommendation. Could be 4.5 may give you happiness and best accuracy. I'd almost surely start at 4.0 gr. or maybe 4.2, if it was me. Powders and guns and loads can do some strange things, and fast powders CAN spike rather quickly at higher pressures, so this must always be a concern.

[tejano]

In my Wiley Clapp Ruger GP100 I have used Rimrock's 170 gr. Keith bullet and 5.5 gr. of Titegroup with good results.

[paraord]

Thank you guys. It really is good to know that 70% thing as a rule of thumb. Also the 3-4 range is a great starting point. I will likely start with 3.5 grains just to finally get comfortable with the gun and get some trigger time before running up to the magnum loads. My goal on this is 1000fps on the full house loads out of my 4" without getting too close to the max. Im sure I will end up setting up my chrono and seeing what these do as well.

Looks like I need a few more reloading manuals too, any suggestions aside from the current Lyman books?

[WALLNUTT]

Hodgdon has a paperback manual that is free if your store has them. It's not real detailed but is good as a guideline for the newer powders from Hodgdon to include Win and IMR which are now owned by Hodgdon.

[bangerjim]

I used TG in 357 all the time. Just follow the load data published, and not load rumors on forums. I never go over 70% anyway. Now I use only ETR7 - - - cleaner, better, faster, doesn't attack PC.

But for full house mag loads, I use powders designed for high loads. Again, please refer to the many load data books out there for cast with powders.

banger

[tejano]

For your consideration only: "This moderate handload uses the excellent Mt. Baldy 173 grain plain base Keith semi-wadcutter bullet with six grains of Hodgdon Titegroup powder." http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-GP100WC.htm According to the chart accompanying the article, this load achieved 1000 fps from a 3" barrel.

[WALLNUTT]

100 fps is a little slow for my taste even from a 3" barrel.

[tejano]

100 fps is a little slow for my taste even from a 3" barrel.

Fixed it. :)

[RogerDat]

ADI has a web based load tool that give loads for the caliber you pick, since the loads are listed using the ADI designations you have to also look at the ADI powder equivalent page. Google ADI powder equivalent and your will find it.

ADI is an Australian Manufacturer of many US powders, a fire they had in their pistol powder facility is a large part of why you couldn't get pistol powder for awhile. They seem to have more load data than some manuals.

I don't think titegroup is one of their powders but several of the pistol powders useful for magnum rounds are, it can be worth taking note that there are often 3 or 4 pretty equivalent powders to some of the scarce ones. No Varget to be found on shelves but wait 4064 is almost the same performance, slightly longer cut. Both made by ADI as AR2208. The magnum powders 2400 and H110 have a few other names that ADI makes them for other companies as.

One of the questions I asked Hodgdon during a phone call was about using ADI information for H and IMR powder loads and they said no problem, pay attention to the fact that they are as noted in the table of equivalent that they are within 5% of each other not always a perfect match. Hodgdon said they keep the ADI manual on hand as a reference which he went to in order to look up an answer for my question about 215 grain lead 303 British load data. Lyman and Lee don't have anything that heavy for 303 Brit ADI does. I guess those Aussies have a thing for all things Enfield. :-)

[WALLNUTT]

I was pretty sure 100fps was a 0 short.

[paraord]

Alright guys, I'm gonna load up some a 3.7 grains on the button. If I go 70 percent off starting load for the 170 grain jacketed that puts me at 3.78 grains, and max load using the 70% is 4.2, so with max for 38 special on the Lyman cast 4th edition for this being 3.5 @ 16,500 psi and relative max pressure for .357 mag at around 39-40,000 I think I am playing it safe. Let's hope I don't blow up my 686.

Anyone suggest any other cast load manuals?

[birch]

My GP 100 loves 4.5 grains under 158 grain plain base.

[bobthenailer]

I have had excellent results using Tightgroup powder in the 357 mag for reduced loads as well in 44 mag & 454 casull , I use only mag cases,

Try 4.0 to 4.5 gs of TG with any cast bullet from 148 to 200 gr, I have 8 different moulds and it works excellent with all bullets And in at least 7 different firearms.

[paraord]

Hot dang! I wanted to pop off a few rounds just to hit my little gong at 10 yards and I thought to myself, my 44 wasn't bad without ears on when I dispatched the neighbors rooster, I can run 6 rounds quick. Golly that's a popper. Is it the titegroup vs aa#9? Snappy! Anyways I grabbed some ears and ran 23 more rounds. All hit the judiciously large gong. Checked the barrel and no leading and very clean actually. Now I'll have to sit down and start checking real accuracy.

Edit: yep upon further investigation there was a little leading in only one groove, just a touch past where the rifling starts. I think I'm going to need to ream, or have the cylinder reamed. The .357's are a touch tighter than I'd like them to be in there.