What options on Bridgeport are worth anything?

[AbitNutz]

I've found enough of a selection of used Bridgeport mills available within rock throwing distance from me that I don't have to consider a clone. I'm going for an actual Bridgeport in decent condition (inspected by someone who knows) with a variable speed head. However, there seem to be a myriad of configurations. Of course, being new to this I'm attracted to all the bells and whistles. I don't know what is worth having and what is just bling.

Is 1-1/2 hp enough? Is 2 hp the way to go?

Power feeds? Which ones are worthwhile?
I've seen power feed on X&Y and also Z, power knee. Hey, it looks cool.
They all have a power quill, right?

DRO, many/most have X&Y but almost none have Z. If it has a power knee, wouldn't it be wise to have a DRO on it?
Also, saw one with a DRO on the quill.
Not sure if Z would be the quill or the knee or both...no idea here.

Also, is there a preferred DRO manufacture?
I've also seen where a power feed was added that was not from Bridgeport. Doesn't sound like the best idea.

I'd rather spend more now if I'm likely to use the feature in the future, rather than having to retrofit it.

[M-Tecs]

Variable speed and chromed ways are the most important to me. Next is X & Y DRO. The Z DRO is nice but it mostly just increases efficiency. Other than the cheap Chinese DRO's they are mostly all good. Same for power feeds. Power knees are nice but you can live without them.

Older machines can have can have a smaller table. The current 49 inch tables are preferred. The 42 inch tables are OK but some of the round ram Bridgeport's are 39" inch. I find these too small for some apps.

[AbitNutz]

At this time, I don't see the need to look at Chinese machines. Maybe my budget will tighten but there are just too many real Bridgeport's available. I know there are those that will swear by a particular clone and I'm sure they're great...but I never heard anyone ever say they regretted buying a Bridgeport over one.

Machine maintenance and repair are a significant part of my thinking.

It looks like a machine with chromed ways really add to the life of the machine?

[retread]

Variable speed and chromed ways are the most important to me. Next is X & Y DRO. The Z DRO is nice but it mostly just increases efficiency. Other than the cheap Chinese DRO's they are mostly all good. Same for power feeds. Power knees are nice but you can live without them.

Older machines can have can have a smaller table. The current 49 inch tables are preferred. The 42 inch tables are OK but some of the round ram Bridgeport's are 39" inch. I find these too small for some apps.

I think M-Tecs summed it up correctly. My experience is the same.

[M-Tecs]

At this time, I don't see the need to look at Chinese machines. Maybe my budget will tighten but there are just too many real Bridgeport's available. I know there are those that will swear by a particular clone and I'm sure they're great...but I never heard anyone ever say they regretted buying a Bridgeport over one.

Machine maintenance and repair are a significant part of my thinking.

It looks like a machine with chromed ways really add to the life of the machine?


My post was for actual Bridgeport's. The Chinese comment was for after market items like DRO's. The Bridgeport labeled DRO's from the late 80's and 90's weren't as reliable as the Japan DRO's.

Power drawbars are something I can't live without. I prefer Kurt but I helped design and R&D a bunch of the products so I have a bias.

[AbitNutz]

Ah...ok. Sorry I didn't catch that. It seems that a reconditioned Bridgeport 2hp variable speed with chromed ways, power feed eveywhere and DRO's on anything that moves can be had for 10K. Yes, that is a lot but not silly when you think it could be handed down to my undeserving, illiterate grandson, who would then trade it for brick of pot.

I'm not saying I'm looking to spend 10k but that appears to be the upper end of the world. Of course, the tooling and widgets has to be accounted for. The vise...rotary table...and that's another thing...

Vise Advice?
Rotary table? They look g-whiz but...

[M-Tecs]

I really like the Bridgeport rotary tables if you have a need for one.

This goes back to the mid 90's but the Kurt vises deflected less than anything we tested. Kurt used better quality materials than the imports but the imports tended to look nicer.

[PaulG67]

Horse power, the more the merrier.
Power feeds, Bridgeport factory power feeds are not nearly as robust as the rest of the machine, they break a lot. The electronic aftermarket power feeds are much better and smoother in operation. Power feed on a knee, 40+ years of playing with B'ports and I never had a need for one. Don't base your decision on it having one.
Vise advice, a vise is essential, Kurt makes very good vises, and they can be had for very high prices, even used. You can tell a good vise from a bad one buy cranking on the handle, it should be solid and not sloppy, vise jaws should be free of holes, milling marks, divots and burrs. The solid jaw of any vise should be square to the ways of the vise and the surface of your table. Vises that have had the handles hammered on in order to hold the part tight are a good candidate for out of square solid jaw. Never hammer on your vise handle. Bridgeport vises are very good also and are usually very heavy but can usually be had for less than a Kurt.
Table size, again bigger is better, 9x42 I believe is the most available and I think the one to get, anything less can be a problem at times. There have been a few times that I wished that my machine had a 48 inch table but not often enough to find one.
Rotary tables are a very handy tool, but again don't base your buy on one being available with a particular machine.

Another useful tool is a 90 degree head, this can make some jobs much easier. Although not the only thing it can be used for with the correct mounting bracket for an arbor it will turn you vertical mill into a horizontal mill. Handy sometimes.

Basically you want the basic machine to be the best you can get for your money. The rest is just gravy.

[country gent]

Chromed gibs and ways are a big pluss as is the dros a read out on the quill is very handy also but alot of them get in the way of the quill stop also. A quick release quill stop is dang handy also push a button in and thread releases slide close and only turn to fine tune setting. A quick release quill lever is also nice pull handle in move to where you want it and release to engage lock pin. Quicker than the original slide out move realiaghn and push in. Power feeds can be handy positioning but alot of the elec are hard to adjust slow enough for actual cutting. Most of the bridgeports had 3 feeds on the quill .0015, .005 and .010 Per revolution I believe. Another option that is nice if you dont have a crane is the vise lift on the side.

[akajun]

Power feed on x is a must, y is nice too. Enco power feeds are $300 each. Knee feed is kind of unnecessary, if you don't like cranking then buy a drill adapter for 30$.
Dro, yes you need a 3 axis ,x,y,z/knee. If it's on the quill as well it's usually called a 4th axis, but not like a cnc 4th axis which is a rotab. Don't go crazy on a dro, an import 3 axis is about $500.
1.5 hp on a Bridgeport is fine, I can't say I have ever bogged down my 2hp with an endmill or 4" facemill. Brush ports are not that rigid, you will knock it out of tram or get chatter before you bog it down .
Varispeed is not that big a deal since you are gonna use a vfd.

[AbitNutz]

This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I know a power knee is cool but if you only move it up and down to show your friends how cool it is...meh, maybe not so much.

That's interesting that the after market power feeds are better than Bridgeport's.

I know what you mean about Kurt vises. My God are they expensive. If they were expensive and worth it, that's one thing, you pay it and enjoy it. If it's not worth it, you grimace every time you use it. Rotary tables are something I guess I can pick up when the need arises.

Chromed gibs and ways are things I hear over and over.

Table size is one thing that seems to really affect the price. So not less than 42" but more if can be had...The same can be said about horsepower? It seems, that like cars and motorcycles, I've never heard anybody complain they had too much.

I never thought about a quick release quill lever being another "nice" I never thought about. I bet it's one of those things that you use it once and wish you always had one.

It sounds like import DRO's are like everything electronic. The difference in the quality is not accuracy, it's durability. It's very difficult something digital to be inaccurate. However, the cheap ones tend not to live very long.

Now tooling...what cutters do you find the most useful? Should I go full Monty on carbide or just go good enough? The price difference, as you all know, can be astounding. Are there particular brands that are always quality? If I see Grobet on a file, I know it is going to be excellent. Anything like that on end mills, etc?

[country gent]

High speed steel with cobalt end mills will do 80% of what you want easily and be more forgiving. carbide is nice for production work and hard materials but is also more brittle and an opps ussually results in a chiped or broken cutter. The one place carbide does well is in a boring head. For most jobs 2 or 4 flurte HSS cobalt center cutting end mills are great and are sometimes easier to get a nice finish. Some other cutters that may be handy is a 2"-4" fly cutter these work great with a piece of HSScobalt lathe tool and clean up a face easier. Sometimes a slittng saw and arhbor is handy. A few 1/8" 1/4" 3/8" one or 2 1/2" 5/8" and 3/4" end mills on hand cover alot of work. A High Helix flute gives better finishes and cuts cleaner in soft materials like copper and aluminum. A dull end mill wont grab as hard in brass. BAll nosed can be picked up as needed. Radious cutters also, on small pieces radiouses can be done with a file as fast or faster than setting up the cutter and alighning it takes. With the mill a set of good files is your best friend. Double cuts Fine and a few swiss patterns make breaking burrs and sharp edges quick and easy small radiouses, bevels, an such become easy to do by hand.

[AbitNutz]

Wow! Thanks for that rundown. I appreciate you sharing your experience. I know you can go broke a buck at a time buying some you don't need and won't use.

[AbitNutz]

This thing has to go through a doorway. That means the head needs to come off it to make it shorter than a man and the table needs to be removed to make it less 36"'s wide. Or just slightly narrower than my mother-n-law.

Like any monkey, I can take something apart, getting it back together is another thing. Specifically, getting it back together and aligned, trued, shimmed, leveled or whatever is required, may be a skill I don't posses.

As a complete fool, regarding this tool, can I be reasonably expected to be able to reassemble this? Or would I be best served and pay someone to do it?...OUCH! Finding someone willing and capable of doing it may be more of a problem than swallowing my pride and paying for it.

I've also decided that the concrete floor where this is going, isn't level enough so I'm going to pour a 4", reinforced pad for it to sit on...this I can do, no problem.

[M-Tecs]

Bridgeport's aren't the heavy. Most floors are fine. For leveling I just shim the base but the machine accuracy isn't effected by being out of level.

[AbitNutz]

Yeah, this floor is less than fine. It really does need to be in better shape for anything and 4 inches is about the minimum you can pour concrete and expect it to stay together. I'd do the same thing even if I was just going to put washer and dryer on it.

[smokeywolf]

Chromed ways
Kurt vise
Full set of R8 collets
Dial test indicator (I favor Compac, Interapid or Mitutoyo) (you can't machine diddly until you tram the head in and indicate your vise)
Edge Finder (Quality! no chinese on this one)
Clamping Kit
Parallels
1/2" capacity Albrecht or Jacobs Drill Chuck
Mill stop and/or Vise stop
1-2-3 blocks
Boring head w/boring bars
Feed on X
DRO on X & Y and a separate one on the quill
Rotary Table (mine is a Bridgeport with the right angle fixture)
Dividing Head
V-Block
Angle Plate (Adjustables are nice)
5C collets
Collet Block Set
Horizontal/Vertical Collet Indexer


The first 8 are immediate necessities.

There's lots of other goodies and I didn't include the obvious, like, center drills, drills, counter sinks, taps, reamers, endmills, milling cutters and slitting saws

If you don't get a variable speed head, then step pulley and VFD

[Kilroy08]

This thing has to go through a doorway. That means the head needs to come off it to make it shorter than a man and the table needs to be removed to make it less 36"'s wide. Or just slightly narrower than my mother-n-law.

You don't have to remove the head, just drop the knee all the way down and rotate the head so the motor is pointing at the table.

As others have stated....

X and Y axis DRO. You can also get a little cheater DRO for the quill. Check out http://shars.com I've never encountered a situation where I needed a DRO for the knee. Worst case, a 1" dial indicator on a mag base if you're needing to be that particular.

X axis power feed. If you can get a Y axis power feed cheap enough, go for it. The knee? Drill adapter.

2 horse is more than 1 or 1 1/2 horse. What would Tim Taylor do??

I was working on my reply when Smokeywolf posted his. Ditto what he said.

One more thing, in addition to test indicators get a Blake Co Axial indicator. Doesn't need to be new, used is half the price.

Lastly, check out Mr. Pete 222 on Youtube, tons of machining knowledge.

[PaulG67]

You can wiggle a B'port through a door without removing the table or head.

[Kilroy08]

You can wiggle a B'port through a door without removing the table or head.

Yes! Thank you for jogging my brain cells.

Running the table all the way to one side allows you to skooch it around and through a recalcitrant doorway. If you need more wiggle, the table can be moved around to suit during the threshold transitioning process.

Another trick is cut some small diameter bar stock slightly wider than the base and use it for rollers. 5 or 6 pieces usually suffice. When the back one is no longer under the machine, stick it in front. Rolling friction is easier to manipulate than sliding friction.

Egyptian engineering skills are key!

[M-Tecs]

167735Pipes or round stock doesn't work well will Bridgeport's. The base is two levels. The four corners are higher than the rest of the base. There may be some flat ones but I have never seen one. I have moved a bunch.

[country gent]

Swiveling the haed upside down may gain what you need or 90* 0r even upside down at 45* The big thing is measure before getting in to door way. We had roller pads for moving equipment but te smaller base on the bridgeports made jacking them up the 4" to get them under it really tricky. We used pipe for moving them and if need be a piece of heavy flat stock bolted on the feet for it to roll on pipe. Most rolled fine on the 1 1/2-2 pipe. Table removed makes them less tippy when moving. Bridgeports type mills can be a little top heavy when moving at times, but I have seen millwrights move them up and down stairs. Level is nice to have and makes set ups much easier. The big benifit is even wieght distribution between all 4 feet so machine dosnt rock.

[smokeywolf]

Those roller pads are called "mice". I have a set which I've used to move my Bridgeport. Mice are fine on a smooth floor, not a bumpy uneven surface. And country gent isn't just whistling dixie when he says it can be "tricky" to get the mice under the base. Always makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

[Clark]

I had a 1963 800 pound Rockwell 21-100 mill for 10 years, and used it an average of once a week, mostly making scope bases and other tiny things.

I rolled it out the door, gave it away, and bought a 1969 2000 pound Bridgeport with auto feed and x,y,z, DRO on the knee.

I realize now that I could have done all the gunsmithing on the old mill, if I had added DRO to the old mill. I don't care about the money, but it took me 10 days to move the Bridgeport's 2000 pounds around the side of the house.

[fg-machine]

I hear a lot of hoopla about hard chrome ways and gibs.... Mark that down as something you do not need .

You are not going to running the machine 10 hours a day 6 days a week ... if the ways are in decent shape when you buy the machine and you keep them oiled and clean they are going to last you a life time with no appreciable wear as a hobby Machine .

Save the extra money you might spend on a machine with chromed ways and put it towards tooling

[M-Tecs]

If you are purchasing new for hobby use I agree with you. The issue is the life the machine had before you purchased it. If you can find a non-chrome that doesn't have significant wear you are a lucky man.

If they will let you adjust the gibs so you can feel a drag in the center of the movement than crank it out to the end and see how tight it get. If you have an equal level of drag and more adjustment to tighten the gibs more than wear won't be an issue.

[country gent]

Im more concerned with wear in the knee than the X + Y axisis, this can affect the squareness of the travel. Up high for center drilling and lower knees to drill and centerdrill is no longer on location. With a bad knee running the table over center as a definite affect do to rock in the knee. THe locks help some but when running its a pain to always lock un lock them. HAd a index mill come back from rebuild ( recrapped and new gibs. New bearings 100% refurbish) that a block bolted on table with a 1" ground hole bolted down and zeroed X+Y axis at top of knee travel (Not bottomed out but 1/2 below) when dropped to bottom of travel was out in the Y axis .008. It was a bad scrapping job but the pattern and points per inch looked great. The flaking was very good ( love seeing those gulls wings). but it wasnt accurate. Seeing a decent pattern still showing dosnt mean alot unless you can put a indicator and inked granite straight edge on it. I have been asked to simply reflake older machines to reduce squeals when moving. A pattern can simply be touched up quick to cover bad areas.

[fast ronnie]

Chromed ways
Kurt vise
Full set of R8 collets
Dial test indicator (I favor Compac, Interapid or Mitutoyo) (you can't machine diddly until you tram the head in and indicate your vise)
Edge Finder (Quality! no chinese on this one)
Clamping Kit
Parallels
1/2" capacity Albrecht or Jacobs Drill Chuck
Mill stop and/or Vise stop
1-2-3 blocks
Boring head w/boring bars
Feed on X
DRO on X & Y and a separate one on the quill
Rotary Table (mine is a Bridgeport with the right angle fixture)
Dividing Head
V-Block
Angle Plate (Adjustables are nice)
5C collets
Collet Block Set
Horizontal/Vertical Collet Indexer


The first 8 are immediate necessities.

There's lots of other goodies and I didn't include the obvious, like, center drills, drills, counter sinks, taps, reamers, endmills, milling cutters and slitting saws

If you don't get a variable speed head, then step pulley and VFD



I'd have to say that I agree with most on this list. Two I've never had are the dro's and the power feeds. I don't do production work, more like prototypes, or one-offs for aircraft work. I believe I have everything else on this list and use most of them on a regular basis. I bought a chinese copy in 1985, use it every day, sometimes all day for days at a time. After 31 years, it is getting worn. Probably going to replace the spindle bearings before long, though. The one tool that I use EVERY time I use this machine is an interrapid indicator with the co-axial mount. Bought that indicator 46 years ago. I had to have it repaired once when jammed into a shoulder on the lathe.
The reason I do not have a dro is I had one fail in the middle of an important job and had a very expensive piece of scrap as a result. They can be very handy, but they are not fool-proof. I have worked on the dials for most of my career and find them most dependable. Power feed can be nice for some jobs, but not a have to have item. A good solid machine will last a long time, but junk will make you cringe every time you have to use it. Bridgeport is good, but they are not the only ones. A Tree is a very good mill, but finding a good one is getting more difficult, not to mention more expensive. Collets are different, also. I don't remember if they ever made an r-8 quill, and as I recall, Tree was different from anything else but may be mistaken on that.
If buying used, check the backlash on the screws. Another good thing to check is how far the gibs have been adjusted. Those two will tell you how hard the machine has been used. Screws can be replaced, but tightening up worn gibs can be a problem if worn beyond adjustment.

The work you are doing will dictate what tooling you will need. It can be purchased as needed, but a worn machine will not be a good investment. Be picky about the machine itself, especially condition.

It can be a very rewarding experience creating something unique that you have designed and built.

Make a lot of chips, and have fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ron

[smokeywolf]

Ron, you're right on the Tree collets being different. In their favor, they had a quick release system. We had an Index toolmaker's (knee) mill in the MGM shop and it took a collet similar to the Tree. I've spent at least a couple of thousand hours on Tree mills. They are, for the most part, very good mills. A few that I worked on had factory X,Y and knee feed w/rapid traverse.

[BwBrown]

This thing has to go through a doorway. That means the head needs to come off it to make it shorter than a man and the table needs to be removed to make it less 36"'s wide. Or just slightly narrower than my mother-n-law.


No need to take it apart. Tilt the head to horizintal to clear the door height. The mill will twist and turn through a 36" doorway.

[Rifle 57]

Get a ER-40 collet holder with a R-8 shank and a set of ER-40 collets it is the only way to go I feel. It is a lot easier than changing R-8 collets when going to a different size end mill.

[country gent]

One thing I dont like is the spring loaded release handles where you have to hold tension to engage the on the table and cross slide. These normally are added with power feeds but they bother my wrists. Also when counting turns and it releases your starting over recacthing the part and recounting. Also make sure the knees handle and mating is clean an not worn.

[smokeywolf]

Boy, do I ever agree with country gent on this. Hate those spring-loaded crank handles.

[W.R.Buchanan]

You want the DRO. Mitutoyo's are the good ones. You can also find a set of Trav-a-Dials which are every bit as accurate as a DRO and less problematic in a lot of ways, but are kind of Old School.

Power Feeds are nice but not really necessary unless you are doing production work and have a lot of parts to mill. The good ones are made by Servo and they are by far and away the most plentiful out there.

The one Power Feed that is nice to have is the one on the knee as it allows you to dispense with cranking the table up and down. I have got about one trip from bottom to top in me in any one sitting and at .100 / revolution there is a lot of revolutions from the bottom to the top... My new mill got one from the get go and it gets used every day.

Kurt Vise is a must have.

The mill itself should be a real live Bridgeport, not a Textron Bridgeport. They have a flat topped foot. Real Bridgeport's have a foot that is recessed on top and they contain the runoff from the machine. The machine itself will either have a 9x42 or 9x49 table. either 30 or 36" of travel in X and 12" in Y Some older machines are 9x36 or even 9x32's and these are kind of limited in the range of what you can do. Once you get a vise on them there is little room leftover. These are usually the old Round Ram machines which were discontinued in 1955. My old machine is a 1956 and the first year of the Vee Ram, but it has the column of a Round Ram Machine with a Transitional Turret and a 9" travel Knee. It is a 9 X42" machine. It also has a 1 HP 90 Volt DC Variable Speed Drive Unit of my own design that runs off 110 V AC which I built because I was in a one car garage in my Condo. It has proven to be a great piece of machinery and can do things that a regular drive motor can't do. IN low gear I have twisted a 1" Pipe Tap off with it and it ahs plenty of power.

My newer machine (1992) is a 2HP Vari-Speed Drive with a 9x49 table and a 2 Axis Southwest Industries CNC Retro fit. It runs off an AC Tech converter that converts 220V 1 phase AC to 3 phase Square Wave DC. It's all computerized and makes the mill run very smooth.

You will either have to have 220 3 phase power in your shop or run either a unit like this or a Motor/Generator type unit that will generate 3 phase AC.

Any newer machine will probably have chrome ways which will increase it's life. A decent machine with a power feed and DRO will cost you between $5 and 7K. There are plenty of older used machines that can be made serviceable with a little TLC, but you have to know how to apply that TLC,,, and how to evaluate the machine in the first place. You are really better off paying a little more for a better machine than trying to resurrect an older one that needs work. With the questions you asked at the outset I would suggest buying the better machine and from a reputable machinery dealer. It will always be worth what you paid for it as long as you buy it from a reputable dealer that will stand behind it, otherwise plan on getting screwed unless the Force is with you.

Here's some pics to show you what is out there.

Randy

[PaulG67]

"I would suggest buying the better machine and from a reputable machinery dealer"

Best words of wisdom so far.

[AbitNutz]

When did Textron take over Bridgeport?

[Clark]

Intenet rumor:
Textron owned BP from 1968 to 1986.