Common powder for 303 and 8mm Mauser 160 - 205 gr. cast & PC

[RogerDat]

Over the past shortage I ended up with a bit-o-this and a bit-o-that. Am now starting to load for a Lee Enfield and 8mm Mauser. Have some powder choices I am considering, hoping to reduce the number of powders I keep on hand while still having suitable choices. I'm just trying to find decent shooting loads and hoping suggestions from members on where to start might save me running down some rabbit trails.

Bullets for 303 are:
Lee 312-160-2R with gas check and powder coated. Plinkers
NOE 205 gr. sized 314 RNL with gas check and plain base, powder coated. Plinkers on up to 300 yard ranges (~2000 fps).

Bullet for 8mm Mauser is:
Lee 324-175-1R sized .323 with gas check and then powder coated. Plinkers on up to 300 yard ranges.

I may at some point want to tumble lube or dip in alox or 45/45/10 type lube. PC is great but tumble or dip is less work for plinking ammo.

Powders I'm considering are:
4064 - I already use Varget for other calibers and if the 1# of 4064 I have works then Varget should also. Also 4064 itself is readily available with load data for all the cast weights I am using. Varget is a little harder to come by but worth searching for and stocking up on especially if I can use it in multiple calibers. Load data available for both 303 and 8mm.

4198 - I have not used this before, did pick up a pound in both I & H variety. Load data in Lyman manual for the 303 and 8mm caliber/weights.

I also have BL-C(2), 8208 XBR, Unique, 2400, Load data for these exist for one or the other in manuals or from repeated mention. 16 - 18.6 of 2400 for 303 and 8mm is fairly commonly repeated in C.E Harris article or posts related to it. BL-C(2) and 8208 XBR are commonly available. As is 4064. The Varget, 2400, Unique, and anything ending in "Dot" are harder to come by.

The other rifle calibers/bullets that I'm trying to stock up powder for are that same 160 grain 7.62 x 39 and 70 grain .223 and I may eventually get a mold for a lower weight in the 7.62
I do have about 10 303 RNL 200 gr. on 18 grains of 2400 lubed with alox I plan on trying.

I would love to be able to just buy a 4 or 8 pound jug of one or maybe two powders and be able to know I have the rifles covered for a good while. Then I can focus on working toward best accuracy loading.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

[Outpost75]

Rl7!!!!

[RogerDat]

Is that RL 7 or R 17 ? I don't find loads at the Alliant site for 303 or 8mm in those two. RL 15 has both listed, not at the exact weight but in the ball park. Load data in manuals is thin for 303 above 200 grain bullet.

Not to say one of those two wouldn't be a good choice, they did seem to have some similar type rounds listed.

[Outpost75]

RL 7 for cast, burning rate between 4198 and 3031 with fine particle size good for machine loading. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition (2010) has RL7 data for 8mm and the .30-40 Krag and 7.65 Argentine cast data in the same book are safe to use as a guide in the .303,


RL15 for full power jacketed loads approximating military. Extruded tubular similar to 4064 or Varget, used by the military for loading 7.62mm M118LR.

[Kraschenbirn]

From what you've got on hand, I'd start both calibers at around 24-25 gr. of 4198 and work up. That said, my 'go-to' is H4895; 31.5 gr. in the .303 with the 185 gr. Lee boolit and 29.5 in the 8x57 with the 209 gr. Lee 'Carabiner' sized down to .325.

Bill

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I'm using equivilent to 3031 - 26.5gns with a 220gn boolit sized to .314" .

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/DC303_zpsb890b37f.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/DC303_zpsb890b37f.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/303CBE220_zpsa6bd00c3.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/303CBE220_zpsa6bd00c3.jpg.html)

[jimb16]

Using the same 8mm bullet with pc coating and 4198 powder, I got my best accuracy at 24.4 grain loading. Might not work for you, but its worth a try.

[RogerDat]

Using the same 8mm bullet with pc coating and 4198 powder, I got my best accuracy at 24.4 grain loading. Might not work for you, but its worth a try.

Thanks for that load data. I'm prepping brass now and will ladder some loads, will be making sure I have yours in the mix. I am really hoping I can find a good load for both calibers in these three bullets using the same powder and 4198 looks like it has promise.

I also find I have a pound of H4895 and one of IMR4895 so I may be able to try something based on what Bill uses for his "go-to" loads. Depending on how this works out I can see about getting some RL-7 and giving it a try. Lots of good information.

I will say given a choice between having less accurate rounds or having to stock two powders I'll be stocking up on two powders.

[RogerDat]

Lee 312-160-2R with gas check and powder coated.
I am having trouble finding load data using 4198 for this bullet. Other than the copies of the article by C.E. Harris that state it is good with either 18 gr. or 18.5 gr. of 4198 OR for more power 22 - 25 grain loads.

Anyone have a 4198 load the have personally used for 303 with this lee bullet?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-17574.html has these two statements attributed to him.
The first is an extension of comments on 16 gr of 2400 as the "universal" load for these mil-surp approx. 30 caliber rifles. Red Dot gets a mention in another. However red dot must be made from ground unicorn horn so it is pretty hard to find any around.


Similar ballistics can be obtained with other powders in any case from 7.62x39 to 30-06 size. If you don't have Hercules #2400, you can freely substitute 17 grains of IMR or H4227, 18 grains of 4198, 21 grains of Reloder 7, 24 grains of IMR 3031, or 25.5 grains of 4895 for comparable results.



Mattern's "deer and 600 yard target load" can be assembled in cases of 30-40 Krag capacity or larger up to 30-06 using 18-21 grains of #2400 or 4227, 22-25 grains of 4198, 25-28 grains of RL-7 or 27-30 grains of 4895, which give from 1700-1800 f.p.s., depending on the case size. These charges must not be used in cases smaller than the 303 British without cross checking against published data! The minimum charge should always be used initially, and the charge adjusted within the specified range only as necessary to get best grouping.

Hoping someone has actually tried these loads.

[aspangler]

Found Red Dot, Green Dot, 4227, 2400, Unique, and a bunch of others yesterday at the Bass Pro in Bristol, TN. I bought a pound of CFE223 for my 8mm. It will shoot clover leaf groups with that stuff. What ever works I guess. Powder is getting much easier to find here. Prices here are about what you pay online but without the hazmat fees.

[RogerDat]

Found Red Dot, Green Dot, 4227, 2400, Unique, and a bunch of others yesterday at the Bass Pro in Bristol, TN. I bought a pound of CFE223 for my 8mm. It will shoot clover leaf groups with that stuff. What ever works I guess. Powder is getting much easier to find here. Prices here are about what you pay online but without the hazmat fees.

Bass Pro has powders but the prices are pretty stiff, several dollars more than I see other places online and at gun shows. But probably due to those higher prices they still have some in stock, I bought some H110 and Green Dot from them, along with some 2400. These powders have just not been around anywhere else. Price for the 2400 was a around $7 more than the last pound I found at a gun show within the last year. Go to gunbot.net and check prices, Cabela's and Bass Pro are always around $5 more than anywhere else but tend to have a bit more selection.

Right now I have probably 4 or 5 different powders I could load these bullets with at the bench, including most of the ones you mention, a couple or three pounds of each. My goal is to get that down closer to 2 powders I could use in 8 pound quantity for rifle, and a couple or three powders for pistol. I already have a use for a decent amount of Varget and 4198 this is why I'm trying to find loads for these two specific powders 4064/Varget and 4198 in the Mauser and Enfield.

[runfiverun]

just about all of them will work,,, seriously.

I have been using 4198 in my 32 Winchester.
4895 in well everything from 223 to 30-06 and 4895 in everything from 223 to 30-06.
I prefer the IMR brand.
I shoot enough 2400 to get into panic mode if I go under 20 lbs. mostly in the rifles.
2230 gets used in enough calibers with both cast and jacketed I get the same way at the same point.
heck pick 2 or 3 out of the cabinet and work with them.
I will say that H-322 works ten times better reduced if you use a Dacron filler, 4895 is about 50% better with the filler than with a powder increase.
3031 seems to do pretty well without a filler but leaves a dry carbon behind.
the cfe-223 powder looks like it would work pretty well but I'm down to about 12 pounds of it and my oldest girl would kill me if I used it in anything other than her 250 savage.
if you go slower than 4064 a filler is a big help again or you get too much unburned powder from the low pressure.

from your case sizes there 2400 will work in all of them.
set your measure for 17 grs for everything bigger than the X39.
and to 10 for the 223 and give that a go.
16 does well in the X54 under the 314299 mold,[sized to 313] better than you'd think those rifles with no rifling and a throat that goes to the muzzle will shoot.
the X39 would probably like the same combination depending on the barrel.

[RogerDat]

Have seen so little 2400 that I really wanted to hold what I have for 357 and 44 magnum unless I can score some more. I'm starting to load I will be doing a few of the 160 grain 303 at 18 gr. 4198 Then ladder up with 4198 for the 175 and 205 grain bullets from the starting loads listed in Lyman manual. Making sure I hit the 24.4 grain suggested by jimb16 in the 8mm.

In the 4064 I was going to use the ADI load data for 174 grain in 303 to load the 160 grain. Starting at 70% of max load which would be 29.4 grains and ladder up from there, ADI shows 38 - 42 grains for that weight. 303 with 205 grain I'll use the ADI load for 215 grain. 70% of max is 27.6 grains. Min-Max is 37 - 39.4 and I'll ladder up as far as that range.

8mm will be using ADI data for 175 grain. Min-Max of 4064 is 43-50.5 I'll start with 70% of max so 35.35 grains.

If I find some load that I really like in 4064 I'll see if that same load is good in Varget and stock up on Varget. I would love to have 20# of 2400 or really any of the broadly useful powders. Maybe if this works out I'll be able to work in that direction but that will more likely involve a 4 or 8 pound purchase. Over time buying those faster than they get used can lead to a good size supply on hand.

I really do want to try out BL-C(2) and 8208 XBR both look like they are well thought of, but one thing at a time.

[leebuilder]

Lots of good info shared.
my findings for 303
i found 4198 about the best for stout loads
Followed by 4895, 3031 and 4227.
I am about to try H335 soon in 303 had great success in 7.62×51 and 7.62×54
Working up a 100m load using longshot, closest to 2400 i can find

For reduced loads titgroup is spot on and reddot to unquie are preformers as well.
be safe

[blixen]

I would have said 4759--but it's apparently extinct. It was my go to for Krag, 8mmx57, 06, Argentine, 303. Good ol' A2400 is pretty handy at about 16-20 grains. I'm in the same situation as the OP, trying to find something that works with several calibers and replace 4759. Experimenting with 4227--does anyone have any experience with it?

[runfiverun]

4227 works very well in the 30-06 with a 150-200gr boolit at about 22.5grs,
so does aa-1680.
that same 22.5 is just a tick to much in the 22-250 or 220 swift, they shoot okay but the groups open up over 4895 enough it ain't worth the hassle in them.

I tend to find a load then spread it around amongst the other calibers I shoot.
usually one of them will be a standout with it and the others good enough to get some trigger time in.
tweaking it up or down a grain or two usually pulls the others into a workable arrangement.
the 7mm's usually want you to cut the load by about another 15-20% to do well.

AA's 4100 is a whole ton closer to 2400 than anything else besides ramshots enforcer.[they are the same powder in different packages]
they will overlap weights and velocity's with 2400 on the way up and down the scale.
usually 1/2gr less of either one will duplicate 2400's pressure and velocity.
they are a finer grained powder and thus more dense which explains why they use the tiny bit less weight wise.

[leebuilder]

My experience with 4227 is erractic with lower weights, more consistant towards max, 26 grains if i remember correctly. I likes the heavier boolits too. Sourced a few pounds over the winter and hope to work up a good load for 100m shooting. 25grs of 4198 and the lee 185gr br at .002 over bore size is my best consistant hole puncher to date.
I still have not tried fillers yet.
Hope this helps
be well

[Adam Helmer]

Roger,

My best 8x57MM and .303 cast boolit powders are, in descending order: IMR4198, 2400 and Unique.

Adam

[Kosh75287]

I'm an absolute beginner to using cast projectiles in medium capacity rifle cartridges, so I will defer to the experience(s) of darned near everyone else on this forum concerning the matter. I nonetheless have used several buckets of both types of 4895, Varget & AA-2460 for any number of "out of the ordinary" applications in cartridges including .22 Hornet, .30-30, .308 Winchester, .30-06, 7.65x53 & 8x57, where "j-word" bullets were involved. None of them has failed to give me at least ADEQUATE results, and most often gave me very good to excellent results.

I prefer H4895 over IMR-4895, because the former enables the reloader to use the "40% reduction rule" (i.e., multiply max charge for j-word by 0.6) to obtain starting cast bullet load. But I'm not lost on the concept with the IMR version.

I regard H4895 as the "Alliant Unique" of the rifle powders. In almost all rifle rounds from .222 Remington to .375 H&H, there will be a load using H4895 that gives tenable if not superb performance in it. It may not be at its best on the most "over bore" rounds of recent inception, but how often do we launch cast projectiles from those?

[runfiverun]

pretty often.
the 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 300 win mag, and several others are superb rounds with cast boolits.

it's funny about the H type of 4895.
I too preferred it at first then once I made actual side to side comparisons with the I-type my view completely changed.

[blixen]

Thanks, runfiverun, Leebuilder
I'm going to put some '06 loads together in the 25-)26 range with my 185gr Lee.

[leebuilder]

Just back from the range.
Longshot and the powder gods were with me. 17.5, 18 and 18.5 with 185 Lee worked well, very good start 2 inch groups with 5 to 10 rounds with the ubiquitous flyer.
A little more work to do to perfect a load.
Had great success with I 4895 and 160 Lee TL naked and PCED. Both in M1 garand @.311 and in 303 @.313.
Be well

[RogerDat]

Bullet: Mold Lee 324-175-1R alloy was approx. Lyman #2
Sized: Lee push through sizer .323 with gas check, followed by ASBB PC with several colors of Smoke's powder coat. Then re-sized .323 OAL of 2.830

Cases were new PPU and case was expanded with NOE .324 x .322 expander plug. CCI primers.

IMR 4198 10 each at 24.5, 25.5, and 26 grains. All were decently accurate at the 25 meter range with no leading. All were as accurate as factory ball jacketed ammo and a whole lot more pleasant to shoot. I shot 5 of those factory ball for comparison and if I ever want to put a hole in an engine block at a few hundred meters.... otherwise my cast is better choice for 100=200 meter plinking. I did not get a chance to test the 10 each in Varget at 35.5 to 38.5 at 1 grain increments. Will have to wait for next range trip.

[greenwart]

I am also trying to work up a load for 303 British and the Lee 312-160-2R. Trying to use what I have on hand.

Red Dot 13.0g Ed Harris load
WC844 H355 Equiv. 32.5g
WC846 BLC-2 Equiv. 35.0g
IMR 4320 30.00 Had some left in a pound container so I will see if it works.

I too am hoarding my 2400 for 357 44 mag also. Interesting that the 4198 worked well I have never had a lot of success with that power but this may be the right application. I also have R15 which I will try on the next test cycle. Will update when I get back from the range.

[RogerDat]

I have heard of the Red Dot load that "just works". Be interesting to find out how it works for you.
I am looking forward to getting some loads I made for the Enfield tested. Including some of those Lee 160 grain. I really hope they work well because they are also good in the 7.62 x 39 so I could end up with a quantity for that caliber and just "borrow" some for the Enfield to use as plinking rounds.

[nagantguy]

For either of those my go to is 4895, no doubt for me, I shoot that exact Mauser boolit from several 98ks, and others, it has a wide range of uses and is easy to down load, just love the stuff.

[RPRNY]

I like 22 grs 4227 for cast bullets (use quite a bit with 180 - 220 grs in the 30-40, very close to the 303). With Js in 8x57, 4064 and 8208 XBR have both been great, but mine is a Persian carbine with an 18.5" barrel.

[RogerDat]

For either of those my go to is 4895, no doubt for me, I shoot that exact Mauser boolit from several 98ks, and others, it has a wide range of uses and is easy to down load, just love the stuff.

Yes 4895 is sort of on my short list, I have a couple of pounds I think. One each of Hodgdon and IMR. I really am hoping to consolidate on a couple such as varget and 4198 or BL-C(2) and 4895 or.... Not really going for the tack driving load in a specific weapon at this point but the "shoots pretty well" loads that will let me load two or more caliber/bullets with a single powder.

Getting 7.62 x 39, .223, 8mm, and 303 British all shooting decently with two powders means I only need too buy two powders and that allows me to go with bigger jugs. The heavy 70 gr. cast .223 in the mini-14 really liked the Varget. Shot better groups than I recall from store bought 55 gr. bullets. So pretty happy with that result. I'm putting these loads and stuff on recipe cards so eventually I will have a shoot-off and compare what recipes I like the best. Best 4198 load against best 4895 load, 25 of each. Or Varget against BL-C(2). I will probably need to go someplace where I have some choice of range distance to properly test.

[runfiverun]

watch that red-dot load I love the powder to death but not in rifles.
the pressure on the 13gr load is 45,000 psi and climbs easily from there with little provocation.
slowing down to green-dot would be a good idea.
I talked to Ed about his red-dot load a number of years ago and he now shoots 2400... something to think about.

[garrisonjoe]

Accurate XMP5744 for both. Or Reloader 7. About as close as you will get to the discontinued but fantastic SR 4759.
GarrisonJoe

[izzyjoe]

I've been using IMR 4895 for years in 8x57 with cast, it's great fot reduced loads, but I really miss Sr4759. I've found that there are a lot of good powders, you just need to find out what works for you and then stock up!

[RogerDat]

The Enfield is in with a gunsmith shop getting bolts fitted. Will be a couple of weeks before I can try them out. Going to be casting up some more of those Lee 324 boolits to get ready for loading. Getting hot for casting, I'm pretty well stocked except for these, since I was just trying them for the first time I did not make that many.

[Geezer in NH]

watch that red-dot load I love the powder to death but not in rifles.
the pressure on the 13gr load is 45,000 psi and climbs easily from there with little provocation.
slowing down to green-dot would be a good idea.
I talked to Ed about his red-dot load a number of years ago and he now shoots 2400... something to think about.

Why go over 13 grains? I use it for lot's of shooting and not for speed for hunting.

For Hunting I agree much easier to get the speed with 2400.

Has Ed Harris rescinded his load of 13 grains of red dot?

[dromia]

He now recommends 2400 as "the Load".

[RogerDat]

There is also the Unique "10 gr. always works Universal load". Except that you might want less in the 30-30 something like 8.5 grains or maybe more than 10 gr. in the 30-06 class of cartridges. So not really 10 gr. for actual good load but 10 gr. works and I guess you can figure it out from there.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?39923-10-Grs-Unique-The-Universal-Cast-Boolit-Rifle-Load

I really think I like how 4198 shot in the 8mm, but do want to try the 2400 and Unique because Unique and 2400 have such broad usability. Looking forward to getting out to try the Varget rounds loaded for 8mm but not yet fired. Chomping at the bit to get the Enfields back from the gunsmith too. The No 1 Mk 3 is sporter and I am really hoping to find a load accurate enough to warrant a scope for it. If not oh well still fun as all get out to shoot, nice "learner" bolt action for the grand kids too.

[mac1911]

I load f 8mms and 303
My plinking plain base loads are with Trailboss. Fun milk jug shooting out to 100 yards or so.
For my target loads I have come to like 2400. It just performs well...18 grains under a 200 grain bullet.
H4895 has been outstanding also. Had some fun with 165 grain ranchdog mold last season. Loaded up some loads for the M1...39 grains and I shot a 196 5 x at 200 yards.

[greenwart]

Went to the range and got some winners and losers. 50yds. Clear sunny 80 degrees. Open sights MkIII. Lee 312-160-2R 165g gas checks.

Loser H355 32.5 Grains. All over the place and possibly to hot.

OK Red Dot 13.0g reasonable 2-3 inch groups. I can see that there might be some pressure signs.

Possibility BLC-2 WC846 35.0g. Fairly stout load. May reduce and see if the group tightens up. This was shot with a No. 4 Mk I, that has a good bore and chamber.

169738

Winner IMR 4320 30.0G

Great groups. Stringing when the barrel got hot. If you overlay the targets the shots walk up and to the left and they shot that way. Sorry pitted bore Mk III. Not bad for 60 year old eyes and open sights. The first target had 5 shots.
169740

169739

[leebuilder]

Nice shooting greenwart! !!!

[RogerDat]

Nice shooting greenwart! !!!

Second that.
The 4320 I think is very close to Varget in terms of being a short cut and similar burn rates. Something else to check into. Still waiting to get Enfield back from shop.

[GONRA]

GONRA suggests when using really olde C. E. Harris Cast Boolit Rifle Data,
do NOT use Dacron or Kapok or (wotever) "fillers" in necked rifle calibers.

Its easy to use "too much" filler (nobody nos what that really IS!)
so the "fluffy filler" compresses into an effective "solid material"
that must be EXTRUDED thru the neck
rather than "just blown out" into the bore.....

EXTRUSION PRESSURES ARE WAAAAAAY HIGHER
THAN OUR NORMAL CHAMBER PRESSURES!
K A B O O M!

[Jake70]

I've had good results with IMR 4320, IMR 4350, and Red Dot.