New S&W 929 revolver coming. It's going to be interesting.

[tazman]

I purchased a S&W 929 today.
I finally got to handle one today and it certainly felt great in my hand. I have to wait until Friday to pick it up but I think it will be worth the wait.
I do have a couple of questions for those of you who have one or have experience with one..
First and foremost-Do you like the gun? What are your experiences?
The next question--What are the barrels and cylinder throats slugging for size? I need to know if I must change the sizing I use for my Beretta 92FS for this gun. I realize every gun makes it's own rules, but often guns of a particular model have similar characteristics.
What type of ammo(boolit weight, material, and type) does your gun prefer?
I would like to know the twist rate for this gun. I can't find it posted anywhere.
Thank you all for your input.
tazman

[shooting on a shoestring]

Taxman, I just had a peek on S&W site and couldn't tell for sure. Is this a 9 mm on the N Frame?

Not knocking the idea, but I'm not understanding why the titanium cylinder? Any idea?

Yep it's interesting.

[BigAl52]

I like mine. It likes 124 grain bullets the best Im using universal clays at about 4.5 grains I think. I have not shot any cast in the gun and at the time of this post Im headed to bed so I dont have any cylinder throat measurements for you but I can tell you this it is a very accurate gun. I have a buddie that also has one and we both feel the same great shooter. Do youself a favor and get some of the Speed beez moon clips from Amazon or wherever you want to buy them for the gun. The moon clips that come with the 929 are very tight and there hard to load and unload without a moonclip tool. The speed beez are much easier and work just fine for target shooting. Al

[osteodoc08]

Cool looking gun.

Wish they made a 41 mag L frame

[Traffer]

It is the Jerry Miculek special. There is another youtube video where he explains why he gave the specs to S&W to make this gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ3XwizTqDw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FbUMqoyjDw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ3XwizTqDw)

[Sasquatch-1]

It's the gun Jerry Miculek made the 1000 yard shot with a 9mm with.

BTW to the OP, Congratulations. I have shot one but do not own one.



Taxman, I just had a peek on S&W site and couldn't tell for sure. Is this a 9 mm on the N Frame?

Not knocking the idea, but I'm not understanding why the titanium cylinder? Any idea?

Yep it's interesting.

[imashooter2]

Taxman, I just had a peek on S&W site and couldn't tell for sure. Is this a 9 mm on the N Frame?

Not knocking the idea, but I'm not understanding why the titanium cylinder? Any idea?

Yep it's interesting.

The 929 is a race gun. It is made to be shot very quickly double action in USPSA, ICORE and similar games. The Ti cylinder keeps weight down for faster transitions and reduced stop notch peening.

[tazman]

The 929 is a race gun. It is made to be shot very quickly double action in USPSA, ICORE and similar games. The Ti cylinder keeps weight down for faster transitions and reduced stop notch peening.


That is my understanding as well. Personally, I could have done without the titanium since the extra weight wouldn't have bothered me and I am not a race shooter.

[tejano]

I have one and it is a much better revolver than I am a good shot. Most of my pistol shooting at the range is done offhand at 7 yards. I only shoot revolvers double action with about 1 second between shots (per range rules). Below is a recent target. I believe the load is 3.8-4.0 gr. of Titegroup and Berry's 124 gr. RNHB. I have not slugged the barrel and probably won't. Mine seems to like .356 plated bullets just fine. I took down this target after this group because I was sure that my next shot would mess it up.167513

[tazman]

I have one and it is a much better revolver than I am a good shoot. Most of my pistol shooting at the range is done offhand at 7 yards. I only shoot revolvers double action with about 1 second between shots (per range rules). Below is a recent target. I believe the load is 3.8-4.0 gr. of Titegroup and Berry's 124 gr. RNHB. I have not slugged the barrel and probably won't. Mine seems to like .356 plated bullets just fine. I took down this target after this group because I was sure that my next shot would mess it up.167513

That's a nice looking target. I would have saved that one myself.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Imashooter2, thanks for the elucidation.
I'm not a racer and that high speed cylinder rotation and hard stop never crossed my mind.
Thanks.

[Traffer]

Here is a video of Jerry Miculek getting his first 929 and firing it for the first time. I want one. I am not a competition shooter and this would go to waste on me, with no talent, but I want one just the same.

https://youtu.be/FaVaaf7I4l4?list=UUhk5eyAGuO3J4rV-CiMNkNQ

[tazman]

I am not a competition shooter either. I just prefer revolvers over semi-autos. They just work better for me. The 929 feels really good in my hand. I have great hopes for it.

One of the reasons I wanted one is that I need a good gun to shoot 9mm when the government takes away all the semi-automatic handguns. I have quite a bit of 9mm ammunition components that I need to be able to use.
I do live in Illinois after all. The government here is trying their best to be a nonfunctional copy of California. Who knows when they will pass some sort of legislation outlawing your right to defend yourself.

[tejano]

A few other things worth mentioning. The revolver only came with one moon clip. That was disappointing. I had to order extras from TK Custom. Also, I get occasional misfires with my handloads, though most do fire the second or third time around. I have tried Remington, CCI, and Winchester primers. In my area I have had no luck finding the "softer" Federal primers. I have not invested in a pricey moonclip loader/de-loader. Since this is a range toy, a pair of needle nose pliers works just fine for me. Finally, I think the group shown in the target was fired using new Lapua brass that I bought to use only in this revolver and my TC Contender carbine.

[tazman]

I didn't see the box, but the salesman told me it came with more than one moon clip. I have more coming in any case as well as a small tool to remove the cases from the clip. They were not terribly expensive.
There are some really ingenious devices out there for loading and unloading moon clips. I had never looked into that before.

Will there be an issue with the moon clips and some brands of brass?

[tejano]

I have not had a problem with any brand of brass, though I was using mostly FC cases in the 929. The Lapua brass was on sale so I bought 200 cases. That should be more than enough to last me for many years in the two firearms that I will use them. I also have the small tool to remove the cases from the clip. I bought it years ago for a 1988 S&W M625 45 acp revolver. Works for both.

[roundgun]

Cool revolver! I fully recommend Ranch Products moon clips. They are out of Ohio, bought them by the 100's for my smiths. I don't think you'll have an issue with 9mm brass and moon clips. I do have issues with the S&W 627 357 and moon clips, Remington or Starline work the best. I would buy one in a second if S&W came out with the 929 in a 2,3 or 4 inch model.

[tazman]

Tomorrow I get to pick it up. Not certain how soon I will get to shoot it. Certainly before the weekend is over.

[warf73]

tazman congrats on the new revolver, I will warn you once you start shooting a 8 shot wheel gun its hard to go back to a 6 shot or even a 5 shot. I love my 627 pro and find myself shooting it way more than both my semi's combine.

Not sure if you ordered a moon clip tool but I've had great luck with mooncliptool.com (http://mooncliptool.com)I ordered the tool and 100 moon clips, I did get a discount when ordering 100 but not sure it's still done or not. The tool is used to load and de moon your clips.
Only issue I've had with the clips has been with Seller and Ballard brass, there to small to stay in the clip. Other than S&B the rest stay in some brands and some brand brass runs fit looser or tighter. Example I've had Remington brass fit loose and some fit nice and tight, all being 357mag brass I'm guessing just different runs. Same goes for Winchester and Federal brass some tight some loose but none of the major manufactures fit so loose they fall out other than S&B they all fall out.
Just something to watch for when loading up your moons no matter whom you buy them from.

[imashooter2]

Cool revolver! I fully recommend Ranch Products moon clips. They are out of Ohio, bought them by the 100's for my smiths. I don't think you'll have an issue with 9mm brass and moon clips. I do have issues with the S&W 627 357 and moon clips, Remington or Starline work the best. I would buy one in a second if S&W came out with the 929 in a 2,3 or 4 inch model.

I've been shooting USPSA Revolver and ICORE for a number of years. Ranch moons in .45 ACP are the great bargain. Last I bought were $35 per hundred delivered. In 7 shot .38 for clipped 686s, Remington brass was the ticket. It fit the Ranch moons very well. When I moved up to my 627 8 shot .38, I found Ranch moons entirely inadequate with my thousands of Remington cases. I used Winchester brass to get reasonably tight clips, but eventually I had to bite the bullet and spring the outrageous money for TK Custom. Lately, I've picked up some of the .025 clips from The Revolver Supply Company to use at LAMR. They aren't tight enough for me to use for on the clock reloads, but they give me 20-25% less chance of someone stepping on one of my $7.50 TK Customs. :-(

I don't have any experience with 9mm clips, but I would certainly explore the inexpensive options available. Particularly if I wasn't going to be doing reloads on the clock.

[tejano]

Well, has the new family member made it home already?

[tazman]

I got it home this afternoon rather late. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.
About an hour ago I started looking things over. The gun itself looks great. All the details are as they should be. Short of shooting it, everything seems to work properly.
The problem came when I tried to load the moon clips. I bought a box of new Winchester ammo to break the gun in with. This ammo will not go into the clips. I simply cannot push them in.
I started going through my reloads to see if different manufacturers made a difference. The only brass I can get to go into these clips is Remington and Federal.
These clips are marked TK.
I didn't think it would be this much trouble to get the cartridges into the clips. Is this normal?
The chambers are deep enough that the ammunition cannot be fired without the moon clips. The cases drop in flush with the cylinder. I guess I need to order some different moon clips and a tool to load them with. My hands are not weak so this bothers me a great deal. I was hoping to shoot the gun this weekend but I may not be able to until I get a tool to load the clips.

[imashooter2]

Moon clips are very brass sensitive. See my previous post.

You can load the clips with a pair of needle nose pliers and unload them with a piece of notched half inch copper pipe.

ETA: Here's a picture of the end of a demooner I made from a broken golf club shaft. Any metal tubing that will slip over the empty brass can be used.

http://www.imashooter2.com/pictures/demoon2.jpg

[tejano]

My decades old needle nose pliers are what I have been using all along.

[tazman]

Ok, I went back and looked at the posts a bit closer. The pliers trick worked. Probably not ideal, but it worked. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
There were three moon clips in the box with the revolver. That isn't near enough so I have more on order.
Here are some pictures of the gun just to tease everyone who wants one but doesn't have one yet.
167699167700167701167702167703
I am planning on getting it tried out this weekend. Wish me luck.
tazman

[tejano]

Some time back another forum member wrote something like: "if you can't figure out how to make the needle nose pliers work, well perhaps you should not be playing with guns." :)

[Earlwb]

That is a pretty nice revolver. I like it too. Having 8 shots would mess with a BG's mind if they saw it as a revolver. Sort of like the mythical 7 shooter in the spaghetti westerns years ago. It does remind me of the old S&W .45 Auto Rim I had years ago. It used moon clips for shooting the .45 ACP rounds too. It was a tack driver, amazingly accurate. Now you have me thinking about getting one too.

I was thinking that we might have to go with black powder guns, if they go wild on the gun control and confiscation. They will likely ban ammo that is used in semi-auto's too.

9mm Auto-rim, yeah that is the ticket. We need rimmed 9mm ammo. Federal used to make a 9mm Federal Rimmed cartridge before. But they stopped as it was possible to fire it in .38 Special or .38 S&W revolvers. The 9mm Luger chamber pressure is too much for those guns. I think that Charter Arms and maybe some others used to make the revolvers too. Anyway, one could trim down .38 special cases to make the 9mm rimmed cartridge.

[tazman]

I got to the range with it today and it shoots excellent. I started out with new Winchester 115 fmj and then with a few Winchester 147 fmj and followed them up with my cast loads I made up for my Beretta 92fs(sized .358).

All rounds chambered and shot well. The cast boolits even seemed to out shoot the factory rounds. This will take more trips to the range to make sure but it looks good for now.
Here are some pictures of the targets I shot for group. All offhand.
167790167791167792
The first two, I had not adjusted the sights yet. The last one, I was holding on the bottom of the outside ring, expecting it to shoot higher since the boolit was heavier. It did, but not much. I sighted the gun in for 120 grain tc boolits. I pulled two of the shots or the group would have been even more impressive.
I like this one.

[tejano]

I like that last group. BTW, since I was reloading for mine this afternoon I did the drop test on the cylinder. .355" bullets dropped through. .356" bullets had some resistance but could be pushed through without much effort. . 357" billets stopped cold. Modest effort would not push them through so I stopped.

[tazman]

I don't have anything at .356. The .355 bullets I have go right through and the .357 bullets won't go at all.
I expect the throats are the same as yours.
I like the fact that my cast boolits are shooting as well or better than factory. I didn't know if that would happen.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Hmmm...
i wonder if the cylinder could be reamed for 38 Super and not have to deal with moon clips???

[imashooter2]

S&W has made 627s in .38 Super. They were moon clip guns. Frankly, if you don't want to mess with moon clips, I don't see why the basic 627 .357 Magnum wouldn't fill the bill.

[tazman]

I need to find a couple of pieces of 38 super brass. The cylinder is already cut deeper than normal 9mm headspace.
If I just drop a loaded 9mm into the cylinder, it goes in until the case is flush with the cylinder. It may already be chambered for 38 super.

[tazman]

S&W has made 627s in .38 Super. They were moon clip guns. Frankly, if you don't want to mess with moon clips, I don't see why the basic 627 .357 Magnum wouldn't fill the bill.
Part of the deal was to have a double action revolver that would shoot 9mm well. If I have to give up my semi auto 9mm handguns, I can probably keep my revolvers. They would be considered less of a mass destruction/military type of gun. I wasn't worried so much about having 8 shots as having a quality revolver in 9mm.
I am starting to get a handle on the moon clips. Once they are loaded, they are an excellent piece of equipment. King of like loading your magazines for the semi auto pistols.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Imashooter2, excellent point.
I just had a quick peek at the S&W site, searched 627 and....are you a salesman for S&W?

Tazman, I get that you wanted a good revolver for 9 mm, and glad you did.
your comment about it being able to swallow a 9 mm just made me wonder about the 38 Super.

Like Imashooter2 pointed out there wouldn't be any impetus to modify that gun to shoot 38 Super because the same basic gun is on the market chambered in .357. But, if it already has long chambers, it would be a really cool idea for an easy dual caliber gun, 9mm with moon clips or 38 Super bare.

[imashooter2]

I'm not a salesman, I'm an addict. :)

The only issue with the Super bare is that ejection will be problematic at best.

[frkelly74]

marked for later. inquiring mind

[tazman]

I'm not a salesman, I'm an addict. :)

The only issue with the Super bare is that ejection will be problematic at best.

That can certainly be a concern. If you can shoot the 38 supers in the 929 at all you can do it with moon clips attached so extraction wouldn't be an issue. Case pressure is the same or at least very close so that part shouldn't be an issue.
I once shot a friend's Taurus 9mm revolver that was headspaced for 9mm even though it took moon clips. I put 50 rounds of new ammunition through it without the clips with no ejection problems at all. I simply turned the gun to the sky and the cases dropped out. I was expecting to have to knock them out with a rod but there was no need. I may just have been lucky that time.
I need to find some 38 super brass and see if they will chamber. I can check for some ammo the next time I go to the local gun store.
I need to check the cylinder length. It may be too short for the length of the 38 super.

[tejano]

Wonder no more. I just tried it. A 38 super round is too long. It is not even close.

[tazman]

I just measured the chamber on mine and it is too short to fit 38 super by quite a bit. Apparently Smith headspaced the chambers without taking into account the amount of the case between the cylinder and the frame. This doesn't appear to pose any kind of problem and allows for an overly long case to drop in without issue.
The cylinder is long enough if you reamed the chambers out but I don't need that either. It works fine the way it is. You would most likely need different moon clips to work with 38 super anyway and I don't need another caliber to load for.

[tejano]

Too late for me. I own 3 Colt 38 Supers.

[tazman]

I figured you must have one or two since you had the ammo available.

[BigAl52]

Tazman
If you go back and read my post like I mentioned do yourself a favor and get some Speed beez moon clips and you wont need a moonclip tool. They are not as tight as the TK clips. Those TK clips are made for competition and are really tight even on brass that will go into them with a tool or alot of force. Al

[tazman]

Tazman
If you go back and read my post like I mentioned do yourself a favor and get some Speed beez moon clips and you wont need a moonclip tool. They are not as tight as the TK clips. Those TK clips are made for competition and are really tight even on brass that will go into them with a tool or alot of force. Al

I took your advice and I have some on the way. Just waiting for delivery.

[dubber123]

In the vid I watched of Miculek first shooting his, you'll see him grab a pair of pliers to load the factory supplied clips. If anyone has good hand strength, I bet it's him ;)

[tazman]

I had to go back and look at that video. I hadn't noticed the pliers before since I was listening to him rather than watching him.
I also noticed he only used the pliers on the last cartridge in the clip. The others he loaded by hand. His finger/hand strength is beyond mine for sure. Also his speed.

[dubber123]

I had to go back and look at that video. I hadn't noticed the pliers before since I was listening to him rather than watching him.
I also noticed he only used the pliers on the last cartridge in the clip. The others he loaded by hand. His finger/hand strength is beyond mine for sure. Also his speed.

I can squeeze over 300# on a bathroom scale, (2 hands), and I wouldn't want to compare grip strength with that 'lil Cajun ;) Even when I was shooting a lot, he was over twice as fast as me for 6 shots from a revolver. Kinda humbling :)

[tejano]

Over at the Brian Enos forum where "competition" shooters hang, there are just as many gripes about the 929 as there are praises. I am not into competitive shooting but I was intrigued that some guys are using Starline 38 short Colt brass rather than 9mm brass.

[tazman]

Over at the Brian Enos forum where "competition" shooters hang, there are just as many gripes about the 929 as there are praises. I am not into competitive shooting but I was intrigued that some guys are using Starline 38 short Colt brass rather than 9mm brass.

That's interesting. My only question is what's the point?
Does it load or extract faster or better?
I haven't had any issues with extraction as some were complaining about.

[imashooter2]

Over at the Brian Enos forum where "competition" shooters hang, there are just as many gripes about the 929 as there are praises. I am not into competitive shooting but I was intrigued that some guys are using Starline 38 short Colt brass rather than 9mm brass.

I use Long Colt brass with the Lee 358-150-1R in my 627. With the deep seating Lee boolit, it doesn't give up much to the big boys with their Short Colt brass and 135 grain Billy Bullets. Plus I get a little extra weight to help take down the big poppers.

[imashooter2]

That's interesting. My only question is what's the point?
Does it load or extract faster or better?
I haven't had any issues with extraction as some were complaining about.

Folks started using the Short Colt cases before the 9mm guns came out. Yes, the shorter rounds load much easier and fall away more reliably than the longer .38 Specials. The general consensus is that there isn't enough difference between the Short Colt and the even shorter 9mm to justify a change if you're already invested in the Colt brass and moon clips.

[tazman]

Folks started using the Short Colt cases before the 9mm guns came out. Yes, the shorter rounds load much easier and fall away more reliably than the longer .38 Specials. The general consensus is that there isn't enough difference between the Short Colt and the even shorter 9mm to justify a change if you're already invested in the Colt brass and moon clips.

Ok. I can understand that.
I was thinking people were using the 38 colt brass in the 929. Apparently I misunderstood.

[tejano]

I think they are. That was my reading of several posts.

[imashooter2]

They aren't. They load Short Colt in 627s, they load 9mm in 929s.

[tazman]

If you try to use 38 short colt in the 929 cylinder, the case head area would expand by about .010 due to the taper of the 9mm chamber. I doubt the brass would survive very much of that.
Used in a 38 special/357 mag chamber, the problem goes away.
No real point in using 38 short colt in the 929 anyway since you could load an equivalent to the 38 short colt in 9mm brass.

[tejano]

Tazman, check your PM inbox. I am calling it an evening; going to the range tomorrow!

[tazman]

I read the PM and replied. Interesting link.
Since I don't participate in competition that requires ultimate speed, the use of short colt brass is just theoretical for me. The good part is that all knowledge is useful at some point. Maybe not the exact same way, but might give an idea to be used in a slightly different way.
This is an interesting discussion.
I need to get to the range and shoot my 929 some more.

[frkelly74]

could you load 38 colt or shortened 38 SP using 9mm dies and have a workable combination? Not that there is a lot of 38 colt laying around like there is with 9mm brass, which is the real advantage of a 9mm revolver as far a I am concerned . I like the idea of found brass being useful, I also like the idea of not having to chase your brass. I have always found 9mm brass laying everywhere people shoot, not so much with 38 SP , never 38 Colt.

[tazman]

could you load 38 colt or shortened 38 SP using 9mm dies and have a workable combination? Not that there is a lot of 38 colt laying around like there is with 9mm brass, which is the real advantage of a 9mm revolver as far a I am concerned . I like the idea of found brass being useful, I also like the idea of not having to chase your brass. I have always found 9mm brass laying everywhere people shoot, not so much with 38 SP , never 38 Colt.

Yes you could. From what I read, I believe that is what they were doing. Although I don't think you could use cut down 38 special. The case walls would be too thick when cut down like that.
Finding/buying the 38 short colt brass would be a problem of it's own. As well as needing different moon clips.
The 9mm brass works without extraction problems for me.

[imashooter2]

The Short Colt is loaded (on progressive presses) using a .38 Special sizer, 9mm expander/powder drop, 9mm seater and 9mm crimp. All this on a .38 Special shell plate. The reason for use of the 9mm bits is there isn't enough adjustment available in the .38 Special dies to get the powder drop, seating and crimp to work.

When I load Long Colt on my SDB, I only use the 9mm seating stem. Everything else is .38 Special (pretty much at the downward limit of adjustment).

[Bullwolf]

I've played around a little bit with 38 short colt brass, but only with mild 38 loads.

I use 38 S&W brass for my 9mm autorim cartridges, when I don't want to use moon clips.

This older Cast Boolits thread may still be relevant, and somewhat interesting about making 9mm autorim.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?181160-9mm-rimmed-advise-please



- Bullwolf

[Sasquatch-1]

I could understand the need for finding an alternate case for the 929 if, 9mm brass was rare. I have close to 7000 pieces of 9mm at home and have given away at least that much. I have shot one of these with 9mm hand loads and find it more adequate then the shooter. Am I missing something here, other then the fact that it can be done?

[tazman]

I could understand the need for finding an alternate case for the 929 if, 9mm brass was rare. I have close to 7000 pieces of 9mm at home and have given away at least that much. I have shot one of these with 9mm hand loads and find it more adequate then the shooter. Am I missing something here, other then the fact that it can be done?

I don't think so.
For me this is theoretical and will remain so. It is none the less interesting, and shows what can be done if necessary.
I also have plenty of 9mm brass and no need to invest in different components. So far my 929 out-shoots me so I can't complain about the gun.

Bullwolf-- Thanks for the link. That was an interesting thread.

[tazman]

I took the 929 to the range again today and it was another successful trip. This gun is a good shooter. Much better than I am. It doesn't care what boolit weight I use or whether the load is light or heavy. It groups with all of them. I tried some new Federal 115gr FMJ in it as well as 3 different cast boolit loads of 95 grains, 120 grains and 145 grains. No problems at all.
Some new moon clips arrived today and that was a big help as well. These were from Ranch Products. They load easily with finger pressure only and unload easily with the tool they sent. I only had one case that didn't want to stay in the clip. I put it in another clip and it worked fine.
The Speed Beez moon clips haven't arrived yet.