Thinking about deer hunting with my .357

[Possum Lickaa]

The plot thickens..and my disease is progressing.
I recently bought a 175 RFNGC .359 from NOE. It is, of course, amazing. I bought it to cast deer hunting boolits for my S&W 28-2 6"bbl. My question is this...
I am planning on pushing that bullet somewhere in the 1300fps ballpark in front of about 14-15 gr 2400. I still have not worked that load up, but that's the plan. Assuming I can do that, what alloy would you deer hunters recommend? I am thinking either 50/50, or even 2 pure to 1 COWW for an even softer boolit. I have learned the value of a properly fitting boolit, so I am not overly concerned with leading (especially with the GC). I feel like straight COWW will be too hard to give decent expansion.

Am I on the right track here?

[shoot-n-lead]

I use the NOE 360 180gr WFN with COWW alloy to cast my hunting loads. I put them over 13grs of 2400 and they work. I don't shoot cast bullets and expect them to expand...mine work without expansion. Also, I have not found the need for gc bullets...especially since starting to powder coat. I shoot this bullet and load in all of my revolvers, 14" single shots...357mag and 357max, and my Rossi lever...not a trace of leading up to my max velocity of 1800fps from the Rossi.

[Possum Lickaa]

I use the NOE 360 180gr WFN with COWW alloy to cast my hunting loads. I put them over 13grs of 2400 and they work. I don't shoot cast bullets and expect them to expand...mine work without expansion. Also, I have not found the need for gc bullets...especially since starting to powder coat.
Good to know. Thanks. Just to be clear, I am not looking for HP or "Deer Grenade" expansion...I like to,have something left to eat after I shoot a deer, or anything else for that matter. I just feel like a good increase in boolit diameter is always beneficial as long as it still allows for good penetration. And I doubt that penetration is going to be an issue here.

[Possum Lickaa]

Am I barking up the wrong tree expecting some expansion from a soft cast FN boolit?

[runfiverun]

nope.
your just gonna have to match your alloy to your velocity.
try 3 parts ww's to 1 part lead then work your load up.
once you get there shoot stuff to simulate the animal.
then try changing the alloy or even add in water dropping a softer alloy to gain back the hardness.
it's still a super malleable alloy it'll just grip the rifling better.

but you always have the baseline go to alloy that'll work well.
the rest is just getting more of what you want.

[shoot-n-lead]

Am I barking up the wrong tree expecting some expansion from a soft cast FN boolit?

I don't think so...others have had success with somewhat of a HP alloy expanding. As I said, I just don't go that route...but there is certainly nothing wrong with it. For me, if I want some expansion with good straight line penetration, I just use a Speer 170gr soft point...just easier for me.

Also, you will probably HAVE to go 14grs of 2400 to get your target of 1300fps from that 6" barrel. I shoot a couple of Bisley Blackhawks with 7.5" barrels and with 13grs, I can only get an average of about 1220fps out of them. The single shots will produce 1600 with the 13grs...and I can tell you that the WFN at 1600fps is a BAD dose...and have not seen any animal that it will not completely penetrate.

[DougGuy]

Gas checks don't hurt a thing. I use them behind Lee RF boolits in my .44 and .45s and I'm running them at 1200 or less. I like 50/50+2% with Felix lube and never have to clean the bores.

I think run5 has got your ticket. Give his suggestion a try.

[Possum Lickaa]

nope.
your just gonna have to match your alloy to your velocity.
try 3 parts ww's to 1 part lead then work your load up.
once you get there shoot stuff to simulate the animal.
then try changing the alloy or even add in water dropping a softer alloy to gain back the hardness.
it's still a super malleable alloy it'll just grip the rifling better.

but you always have the baseline go to alloy that'll work well.
the rest is just getting more of what you want.

Sounds like a plan. I'll keep,you posted. Thanks!

[Possum Lickaa]

Gas checks don't hurt a thing. I use them behind Lee RF boolits in my .44 and .45s and I'm running them at 1200 or less. I like 50/50+2% with Felix lube and never have to clean the bores.

I think run5 has got your ticket. Give his suggestion a try.

Roger that.

[Hickory]

The first year Ohio allowed handgun hunting for deer I used my S&W 586.
I had a good accurate load worked up, 13.5 grs. of 2400.
It was at a time when I was shooting bullseye target at the local shooting club. After work, and before supper, I'd practice in the back yard @ my shooting range. I'd put box of ammo in one coat pocket and after shooting them, the empties went in the other pocket. Load was 2.7 grs.of bullseye.
Opening day of deer season I was ready to harvest my first deer with a handgun. When I got into the woods, I loaded my gun and waited. Less than an hour later, a nice 6 point buck walked up to within 25 yards of me. I was well practiced and confident. At the shot, I knew something was wrong. Instead of the faster load of 2400, the round was one of my practice loads that was left in my coat pocket by mistake.
The shot went true.
The deer leaped into the air, kicked out with its hind feet and fell dead.
I wouldn't suggest hunting deer with 2.7 grs. of bullseye, only, work up an accurate load and hit them in the right spot.

[Lonegun1894]

I use a Lyman 358156 and it does great, so I can only see your 175gr being even better. You'll make meat. I would go with what shoots best and not worry overly much over expansion or penetration. It'll penetrate better than most would expect, and doesn't need expansion, although it doesn't hurt anything if you have some.

[Jeff Michel]

I use the NOE 180 WFN 50/50 alloy lube with 50/50 alox beeswax. 12 grains of 2400. Not quite 1470 fps out of a rifle. As to expansion, if any it's minimal. Both GC and plain base no leading. I've used this combination on my last three deer, none of which traveled thirty feet. This load penetrates very well. I think you'll do just fine with your selection.

[Possum Lickaa]

You know, it's funny. I used this site as my primary resource for information when I made the decision to buy that particular mold, and push it at that velocity, with that specific powder. And now, I am getting confirmation that this is going to be good deer medicine, no matter how it turns out from here. I feel better knowing I have a solid foundation for working up this load. I am excited to see where, exactly it ends up, and how it works.

I am just going to mix up the most accurate combo I can get with these components and go for it. I now have little doubt that it will work out well, no matter where it lands on the spectrum of hardness and velocity (although I am still going to try to stay on the softer side of alloys if possible).

It is just a quest for accuracy now... Go figure!

Once again, we have all arrived at the same old conclusion. Deer are not heavy, dangerous game. put a reasonably weighted bullet in the right spot, and you will have meat in the freezer.

Thanks a million guys!!!

[DougGuy]

It's adequate deer medicine albeit on the smallish end of the available choosings in a handgun caliber. The .357 magnum is at the bottom of the totem pole of handgun cartridges that will HUMANELY harvest deer.

However, it's good that you have gotten a substantial boolit weight and got it accurate and all dialed in. Personally I don't hunt with .35 caliber cartridges when there are MUCH better choices in the .44 and .45 caliber loadings. Makes a bigger hole, a more damaging wound channel. If you are going to lose a deer, it stands a much better chance of happening with a smaller caliber than a larger one. For this reason alone I hunt with something that starts with a 4.

As always, the most important thing to remember, shot placement is KEY!

[richhodg66]

The first year Ohio allowed handgun hunting for deer I used my S&W 586.
I had a good accurate load worked up, 13.5 grs. of 2400.
It was at a time when I was shooting bullseye target at the local shooting club. After work, and before supper, I'd practice in the back yard @ my shooting range. I'd put box of ammo in one coat pocket and after shooting them, the empties went in the other pocket. Load was 2.7 grs.of bullseye.
Opening day of deer season I was ready to harvest my first deer with a handgun. When I got into the woods, I loaded my gun and waited. Less than an hour later, a nice 6 point buck walked up to within 25 yards of me. I was well practiced and confident. At the shot, I knew something was wrong. Instead of the faster load of 2400, the round was one of my practice loads that was left in my coat pocket by mistake.
The shot went true.
The deer leaped into the air, kicked out with its hind feet and fell dead.
I wouldn't suggest hunting deer with 2.7 grs. of bullseye, only, work up an accurate load and hit them in the right spot.

That's an interesting story and very telling. Still can't believe how many guys think you need a .300 magnum to deer hunt around here, I kill a few deer in an average year here and most are well within sixty yards or so. I usually hunt from tree stands. Thing is, I know bowhunters who consistently kill a couple of deer each year, granted, they do it during the rut when it's easier to get close to lots of deer, but if they can do it, anybody should be able to if they work at it a little.

I picked up a CVA Kentucky pistol cheap a few years ago. After working the sights and trigger, it was surprisingly accurate with the Lee REAL (.45) and met all the legal requirements for deer here. Our ML season is late September when they aren't spooky and I have a stand I usually have at least one per season come within spitting distance unalarmed. A lot of guys said not to try it, it's unethical to shoot one with what amounts to .38 Special ballistics. As it turned out, the only deer that offered me a shot I felt was a sure thing was a fawn which would have been legal, but I couldn't bring myself to shoot it that early, January might have been different.

I lost interest in trying the next year, but I may have to take it out this year and try again.

[Bigslug]

Am I barking up the wrong tree expecting some expansion from a soft cast FN boolit?

Somewhat, perhaps. If you have a generous meplat (and you do) with a decent impact velocity (which you can), tissue displacement off the nose will give you somewhat the effect of a larger overall diameter. A softer binary (lead/tin only) alloy will get you into expansion land, but they may not shoot as accurately at the higher speeds you'll want to drive your .357's. My own inclination would be to put my eggs in the basket of a high velocity accuracy load, let the meplat do the work, and not worry about trying to finagle another 0.2" of diameter out of the thing. Punch it through something important and let The Honorable H. Moor Hage do the rest.

[rodwha]

That's an interesting story and very telling. Still can't believe how many guys think you need a .300 magnum to deer hunt around here, I kill a few deer in an average year here and most are well within sixty yards or so. I usually hunt from tree stands. Thing is, I know bowhunters who consistently kill a couple of deer each year, granted, they do it during the rut when it's easier to get close to lots of deer, but if they can do it, anybody should be able to if they work at it a little.

I picked up a CVA Kentucky pistol cheap a few years ago. After working the sights and trigger, it was surprisingly accurate with the Lee REAL (.45) and met all the legal requirements for deer here. Our ML season is late September when they aren't spooky and I have a stand I usually have at least one per season come within spitting distance unalarmed. A lot of guys said not to try it, it's unethical to shoot one with what amounts to .38 Special ballistics. As it turned out, the only deer that offered me a shot I felt was a sure thing was a fawn which would have been legal, but I couldn't bring myself to shoot it that early, January might have been different.

I lost interest in trying the next year, but I may have to take it out this year and try again.

That is only true if one of the weaker powders are used along with a smaller powder charge. There are many chronographed results using Swiss, Olde Eynsford, and Triple 7 with a conical producing nearly 500 ft/lbs with smaller charges.

Mike Beliveau did testing with Ruger Old Army pistols with a ball, a Lee conical, and a Kaido bullet using both standard Goex vs Triple 7. He reduced the T7 loads by 15% which aren't necessary for safety as many people believe, which is supposed to help replicate BP velocities, yet they still well outpaced their performance. He didn't enter the correct weight for the ball or the conical so the energy figures are slightly off. Corrected they read:

144 grn ball 40 grn Goex 812 fps for 211 ft/lbs
144 grn ball 33 grn T7 1062 fps for 361 ft/lbs
220 grn Lee 35 grn Goex 805 fps for 317 ft/lbs
220 grn Lee 30 grn T7 968 fps for 458 ft/lbs

The 255 grn Kaido bullet with just 25 grns of T7 produced 920 fps for 479 ft/lbs. Kaido's heavier bullets with energetic powders have proven to penetrate nose to tail through an adult hog.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_dwo2nThA

I had Accurate Molds make me a mold with a 195 grn WFN bullet that I load in both my ROA and Remington NMA. The Ruger's accurate loading is with 35 grns of T7 or Olde E and likely produces 425-500 ft/lbs, and my NMA's load is 30 grns likely still producing 375-450 ft/lbs. I've sent some to a fellow who will chronograph my loads for a more accurate estimation.

[TCLouis]

Shoot-in-lead
Do you have to really push that 180 pretty hard to get it to stabilize and provide some downrange precision. Everything I have read said the 1:30 twist was not real conducive to precise performance. I had hopes to use Ranch Dog's or LAR45's boolit out of one. Read about the twist issue and went to the 358156, but would like the extra boolit weight.

Hickory
If you would be so kind, where was the boolit impact on that deer?

[Lonegun1894]

TC,
The only 1:30" ROT gun I know of, at least the only common one, is the Rossi 92. Is that what you're using, or something else? Mine does great with the 358156 you mentioned, but there will be a point where the bullet is just too long to stabilize. There's nothing wrong with this twist in regards to accuracy, just like there is nothing wrong with any other twist, but sometimes you just have to match a bullet to the twist you have.

[Hickory]

Hickory
If you would be so kind, where was the boolit impact on that deer?

It was about 45 minutes, from the time I saw the deer until the shot.
He was traveling from my left to the right out about 70 yards away, had he kept on that course, I'd never taken the shot.

But as it worked out after a while it angled towards me browsing the whole time. The wind was in my favor, when it got to 25 yards I had my gun out, cocked leaning off the side of a tree. The deer was facing me for a brisket shot.
I told myself, that when it's head came up, I'd let him have it

But when his head did come up, it was fast and he spun around a little more than 90 degrees to look behind him.
It was a broad side slightly quartering shot. I instantly took a heart shot, fearing that he would bolt.
The boolit, Lyman 358429 went through the heart out the opposite side and broke the bone in the leg.
And as I said it jumped into the air, kicked out with its hind legs and fell (dead) but it wasn't quite dead.
He made a feeble attempt to rise, and stretched out and was dead.

[TCLouis]

Thx Hickory.

lonegun1894
I guess the twist MAY be wrong because I had planned on the 180 grainers.

Lots of time and lots of guns to wring out before this years seasons.

Starting with some BP guns that have the "wrong" twist, but work with the boolits I want to use.

One newbie to the fold that is a wild card, but should be good with heavier 45 caliber BP boolits.

Time to get out the EVOO and Beeswax to lube some BP boolits and felt wads.