.45 Colt Loads Don't Consistantly Chamber

[alamogunr]

Went to the range yesterday to chrono some .45ACP loads. Also took some .45 Colt loads that I had loaded several months ago. As the title says, some of the .45 Colt loads wouldn't chamber in a Ruger SST Bisley that had been modified from .44 Mag to .45 Colt by David Clement who rebored the cylinder and fitted a new barrel. Some would chamber, with finger pressure, enough to allow the cylinder to turn. Some had to be removed.

This morning I got out several .45's and plug gaged the chambers:

Clement .45 Colt .480 gage enters(barely), .478 full chamber. .479 might but I don't have that size.

Ruger Bisley .45 Colt .483

Ruger Bisley .45 Colt SST .482

Freedom Arms .454 Casull .478 enters, .477 full chamber

" .45 Colt Cylinder .482 full chamber

" .45 ACP Cylinder .476 enters, .474 full chamber

" .45 Win Mag (JRH rechamber of .45 ACP cylinder) .480 enters(≈.45 ACP depth) .474 full chamber. ??

Rounds loaded w/.45-270-SAA measured .4738-.4744 just behind the crimp and .4750-.4758 at the base.
BTW, all loaded rounds dropped right into a Midway case gage.

A fired case measured .474 at the mouth and .4765 at the base.

I'm completely out of my comfort zone here and all these measurements may be confusing to some besides me. I really don't know what to think since the Clement gun seems to have the most consistently machined cylinder and the tightest. If I want my reloads to fit this gun, I'm apparently going to have to size smaller. ??

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[44MAG#1]

Simple in fact. Clements chambers his cylinders tighter which isn't a bad thing. Does a 454 Casull carbide sizer size the cases enough? If it does use it.

[Groo]

Groo here
Use a 454 casull sizing die for all.
Thats what I do......

[alamogunr]

The only die set I have is a Redding .45 Colt/.454 Casull and it does have a carbide sizer. I normally turn the sizer down to touch the case holder and then back off 1/2 turn. I'll try leaving the sizer almost in contact with the holder and see if that works. I don't want to touch the case holder and risk cracking the carbide ring.

[DougGuy]

Are you sure the boolit is not interfering with the cylinder throat?

boolits will grow with age hardening, it's not uncommon to size a boolit to fit snug in the cylinder throats and then months later the same boolit will not chamber. This happened to me with a .44 SBH and I learned then not to size the boolits and the throats so close to one another. You need .0007" or so between a freshly sized boolit and the cylinder throats so that a year later, you can still chamber the boolit.

[alamogunr]

Are you sure the boolit is not interfering with the cylinder throat?

boolits will grow with age hardening, it's not uncommon to size a boolit to fit snug in the cylinder throats and then months later the same boolit will not chamber. This happened to me with a .44 SBH and I learned then not to size the boolits and the throats so close to one another. You need .0007" or so between a freshly sized boolit and the cylinder throats so that a year later, you can still chamber the boolit.



No! I'm not sure. Actually it never crossed my mind. These particular loads were from a Handloader article by Brian Pearce in issue 246 in 2007. The boolits were cast of WW+Sn from a MP mold. I wasn't concerned since the article mentioned that his loads had an OAL of 1.65-1.66. Mine were at least .010 less. Growth of the boolit didn't occur to me.

I'll check that when I get back from working out. At my age(almost 74) I've got to keep moving or the joints will freeze up and what muscle I have left will stiffen.

[376Steyr]

Does a load assembled in new (never fired) brass chamber? I'm thinking much-fired brass, which isn't getting completely sized due to backing off the carbide die, is hanging up in a minimum-size chamber. Do you have an old-fashioned steel sizing die? Running your fired cases fully into a steel die might size them down far enough. Sounds like you'll need to keep your Clement's brass segregated from the rest of your 45 Colt loads.

[Char-Gar]

45 Colt chambers are all over the map and Ruger chambers are very large hog wallows. Clements did it right with the tighter chamber.

I use an older RCBS steel die, that produces loaded rounds the same as factory ammo. There is a slight taper to the case with these dies. Carbide dies in 45 Colt are an abomination. Make certain and trim your cases of a uniform length with a square case mouth. Size in a "good" die, load and enjoy. In your effort to "save the carbide ring", you are not sizing the case down to the rim and that may be the cruz of your problem.

I also have an old Lyman Shell Resizer hand die in 45 Colt that I use with an arbor press. This takes the cases to the great old taper and size all of the way down to the rim.

We pay money to people like Clements to give us cylinders that have minimum specs, so the rounds don't wallow around in the charge holes. That is what you paid for. You may have to load for it differently, but that is one reason we handload is it it not, to fit ammo to the individual firearm.

I don't have any experience with the RCBS Cowboy dies, but folks tell me that are just the huckleberry for what you want to do.

[victorfox]

if this is worth a thing the same happens with my .410 brass; any chance one or more of the chambers be smaller? tried them all? With me some brass fired in one chamber wont' fit the other. I'm carefully working this around with a fine sandpaper (not suggesting this to you!). Also I've see pics of .45 Colt loaded rounds where the boolit looks like it's wearing tights. You can see the lube grooves outside of the brass. Is this the case?

[alamogunr]

Thanks for all the advice and information. I've got several things to try. First is sizing the fired cases with the die adjusted down.

Next is looking for a steel sizer. The only steel sizer I have is .475 Linebaugh. I really don't mind lubing most cases prior to sizing. The only cartridges that are more convenient to size w/carbide die are .45ACP, 9mm, and .38/.357 and that only because I recently acquired a Dillon reloader.

Char-Gar, if you noticed, some of my cylinders have tapered chambers. I was surprised at some of them. Especially, the .45 Win Mag which was rebored from a .45 ACP cylinder. I haven't used it yet so maybe it won't be a problem.

376Steyer, I haven't tried new brass. All this is at least once fired, not all by me. I've got some new Starline brass to try.

Victorfox, there is no printing of the boolit thru the case. As near as I can tell, all chambers of the Clement gun are uniform.

Overall, there are several things I need to check. Probably won't get to it today but will report results when I finish.

[DougGuy]

Chambers are supposed to be tapered. You would never get fired brass out if they weren't.

[alamogunr]

Chambers are supposed to be tapered. You would never get fired brass out if they weren't.

Too bad there isn't a smilie for a headslap or at least one showing my flattened forehead. It would be appropriate here.

[44MAG#1]

"Carbide dies in 45 Colt are an abomination. "

Its is funny how different people arrive at different opinions. I have used a carbide 45 Colt die for the 454 Casull and 45 Colt loads for many years and love the carbide die.
Never had a minutes problem with using 45 Colt RCBS dies even with the 454 Casull.
Now I rarely fire mine. I shoot 45 Colt Rugers now. But the fact remains I used 45 Colt carbide die.

[Virginia John]

Turn the sizing die all the way down to meet the shell holder and do not back off. That way you are sizing the entire case.

[alamogunr]

The mention of steel size dies provoked a memory. Went to the shop and looked over the dies and sure enough, there was an old RCBS .45 Colt set w/steel size die. No primer punch but I usually deprime in a Lee decapping die, especially when I'm not ready to reload right away.

I took two of the recently fired cases and resized one in each of the size dies.

Steel die: .477" at 1/8" in front of rim. .4724 at mouth (.0046 difference) .4705 middle of case

Carbide die: .4757 at 1/8" in front of rim .4693 at mouth (.0064 difference) .4701 middle of case



Now I'm confused! It is somewhat difficult to get good measurement at the mouth due to distortion if you turn the micrometer a little too much but not that much. I don't know about the taper but the steel die definitely works the brass less. Now I have to use it to load for the Clement gun. It will be close. That die is set right at the shell holder.

I'm also not sure how the Redding carbide die is introducing that much taper. ??

[Char-Gar]

The mention of steel size dies provoked a memory. Went to the shop and looked over the dies and sure enough, there was an old RCBS .45 Colt set w/steel size die. No primer punch but I usually deprime in a Lee decapping die, especially when I'm not ready to reload right away.

I took two of the recently fired cases and resized one in each of the size dies.

Steel die: .477" at 1/8" in front of rim. .4724 at mouth (.0046 difference) .4705 middle of case

Carbide die: .4757 at 1/8" in front of rim .4693 at mouth (.0064 difference) .4701 middle of case



Now I'm confused! It is somewhat difficult to get good measurement at the mouth due to distortion if you turn the micrometer a little too much but not that much. I don't know about the taper but the steel die definitely works the brass less. Now I have to use it to load for the Clement gun. It will be close. That die is set right at the shell holder.

I'm also not sure how the Redding carbide die is introducing that much taper. ??

Try your steel sized cases in the Clements before you load them. They will be a good fit. If the loaded rounds give trouble it will because of a bulge created by over crimping. With the steel sizer you will get longer case life and better accuracy because the round are not rattling around in the charge holes. The bullet has a better chance to enter the barrel straight that way.

[454PB]

I'm with DougGuy on this......I had similar problems with my .454 Casulls (all three of them) and discovered that the boolit sizing die I was using was very slightly tapered and was not fully sizing the front driving band of the boolits. The rounds would hang up as that band entered the chamber throat. In my case, it was only .0005" too large.

[DougGuy]

A die, unless it's a taper crimp die shouldn't taper a case. A carbide sizing die has a ring of carbide that is forced down over the case mouth and on down to the lowest point it can travel, it's like sliding a wedding ring down your finger, there is no function to taper a case as it re sizes, but pistol cases are straight wall cases anyway. The chambers are tapered so you can get fired brass out easily and not have to carry a hammer and a drift punch every time you want to eject empties, but the loaded rounds shouldn't really have any taper to them so to speak.

You may be getting variations in measurements sure enough, because when the case is sized, the die doesn't go quite to the rim, and so you have this narrow area at the bottom of the die travel, then when you seat a boolit the case is expanded somewhat by the boolit as it is forced down into the case, but there is no taper.


I'm with DougGuy on this......I had similar problems with my .454 Casulls (all three of them) and discovered that the boolit sizing die I was using was very slightly tapered and was not fully sizing the front driving band of the boolits. The rounds would hang up as that band entered the chamber throat. In my case, it was only .0005" too large.

Have seen this too, the same thing can happen with a Star die that isn't adjusted just right. With a push through sizer like the Lee, this won't happen.

[Char-Gar]

A die, unless it's a taper crimp die shouldn't taper a case. A carbide sizing die has a ring of carbide that is forced down over the case mouth and on down to the lowest point it can travel, it's like sliding a wedding ring down your finger, there is no function to taper a case as it re sizes, but pistol cases are straight wall cases anyway. The chambers are tapered so you can get fired brass out easily and not have to carry a hammer and a drift punch every time you want to eject empties, but the loaded rounds shouldn't really have any taper to them so to speak.

Get a factory loaded 45 Colt round. Now measure just above the rim, then the midpoint and finally the case mouth. What do you find? When I do this, I find a round with a slight taper.

When I size a fired case in a RCBS steel sizer or a Lyman Shell Resizer, I get a case that duplicates the factory rounds.

I do agree that a die with a carbide ring should produce a sized case that is straight as far down as the carbide ring reaches. Such carbide dies oversize most handgun rounds, which is particularly pronounced in the 357/38 Spl round. I no longer use carbide dies for handgun rounds except the 9mm and 45 ACP/AR/Cowboy. For those rounds I can find no difference in the specs produced with steel or carbide dies, so I use the carbide.

ADDENDUM: I have had my coffee now, so let me offer a little more on the subject at hand. It won't be long before somebody posts a pic of the 45 Colt ammo specs and that will show a straight case. I have seen it before and don't dispute that the 45 Colt case has straight specs.

However, that said, factory ammo (at least Winchester, Remington and Buffalo Bore) in my shop is not straight, but has a slight taper. I do know that cylinder charge holes are tapered to assist in case extraction.

I also know that RCBS steel dies and other older non-carbide dies product a resized case with a slight taper that mimics factory ammo. I also know that this produces a better fit in most cylinders, for better alignment of the bullet in the throat. I also know that less sizing produced longer case life, although case life for the 45 Colt can be quite short, especially in the older large chamber Colts and Rugers Blackhawks. My first run Ruger Flatop in 45 Colt has chambers cut to minimum specs and my rounds loaded with a steel die is a hand and glove fit, which I like allot.

that is what I know on the subject. I continue to suspect that the OP problems with the tight cylinder Clements comes from not setting the carbide die down far enough to size ahead of the rim and/or too much crimp which results in a bulge at the crimp. With respect to the crimp, a uniform crimp requires uniform case length with a square case mouth. This is particularly helpful in tight cylinder charge holes. I am an unrepentant case trimmer. They don't need trimming every time, but starting with a batch of cases with square mouths and a uniform length is a way to get ahead of the game and head off potential problems that come from inconsistent crimping.

When it comes to bullets not having the top band sized as much as the lower bands, I noticed that decades ago. When Lyman did away with their old style sizing dies, and started using a die with an entry funnel, unless the bullets are shoved deeper into the die, the top band will be a smidge larger. Of course that can put some lube on the bullet shoulder, but I wipe off all loaded rounds anyway.

I have never noticed this problem with push through sizers of any kind.

[44MAG#1]

The steel sizer die verses the carbide sizer die will certainly give us something to ponder for many months to come.
But I would say many have used both with excellent results.
I know I will continue to use the carbide size die due to the elimination of having to lube the cases.
It is what it is.

[w30wcf]

What does the mouth of the case measure with the bullet seated? One issue might be that the o.d. of the case in that location may be a bit larger than the front of the chamber.

w30wcf

[Mitch]

Ihad the same problem with my colt anaconda.It was the booolits sized .0005 to big.we will see what it is

[alamogunr]

I've checked every dimension possible on both the loaded rounds and the chambers of the Clement gun. Finally, I dropped a ..478 plug gauge into a chamber of the gun and marked the depth to the end of the chamber and the start of the throat. I then sat the gauge next to a loaded round that did not completely chamber. While it is only an eyeball comparison, the mark on the gauge corresponded with the round-over of the crimp.

Would you agree that I need to trim my cases that I'm going to use in the Clement gun?. I haven't had time to do it yet but will this week. If this works, it looks like I will become an "an unrepentant case trimmer".

BTW, all the reloads that I had trouble with, chamber in all other .45 Colt guns.

[DougGuy]

I would call Mr. Clements and see what he recommends. SAAMI spec calls for that area to be .481" whereas most of my crimped rounds mic at .475" at the shoulder of the crimp, the ones loaded with .452" and the ones loaded with .456" mic .477" at the shoulder.

I -do- happen to have on hand a Clymer .45 Colt finishing reamer which also mics .481" at the shoulder so this may be an option if Mr. Clements cannot accommodate the issue in a timely manner.

[44MAG#1]

Will a sized case without the bullet chamber easily? If it will very, very, very unlikely it is case length?
If you seat a bullet in the case with no crimp, just turning the case back straight to eliminate flaring will it chamber?
If it does you are doing something wrong with crimping.
It is a process of elimination.
It is not rocket science.
if it doesn't chamber with the bullet seated but with the flare turned straight then there is something wrong with the bullet or the seating operation.
Remember do one thing at a time and eliminate one thing at a time.
Is that what you are doing?
If not, time to get started doing it.
One thing at a time.
Take your time.
Start with the simplest thing such as the first thing I mentioned.

[alamogunr]

Fired, resized cases chamber with no problem. Length of these cases varies from 1.272-1.279. A new Starline case measures 1.281(I only checked one).

DougGuy, the .480 plug gauge just barely enters the chamber(per the OPP) but all measurements of loaded rounds are less than this measurement.

While in the shop, I miked a sized and lubed boolit. .4527 on all bands.

Next week, I will "carefully" load several cases, watching each step. We will see what happens. At this point I don't know what to expect.

John(Not a Rocket Scientist)

[DougGuy]

I think you may have just hit on it. Will the .4527" boolit go into the throats from the front? I would size those to .452" and see if you don't cure the issue..

[Mitch]

and when are you going to get your pin gage set out and use the .450.451 and .452 on the cylinder throats.I am with Doug and 44 mag do all the checking and it will show but still belive it is a boolit sizeing or seating problem

[alamogunr]

I think you may have just hit on it. Will the .4527" boolit go into the throats from the front? I would size those to .452" and see if you don't cure the issue..

I think this is the answer. I took a sized/lubed boolit from the peanut butter jar that I use for storage and drove(too strong a word) it thru the throat. Measurement before was .4527. Measurement after was .4525. Hard to believe that .0002 on the front driving band could cause that much trouble.

What lead me to it was coating a loaded cartridge with a sharpie and pushing it into the chamber of the Clement gun. A very slight shiny place on that front band showed up. The brass showed very slight rubbing its full length on one side, I think due to the cartridge laying on the bottom of the chamber.

As suggested, I will resize those boolits in the .452 die and load and check.

BTW, all loaded cartridges in question chamber easily in all my .45 Colt guns including the FA. Rather than mess with them in the Clement gun, I'll shoot them up in others.

I also got distracted setting up a just acquired used Dillon RL550B. I've got the .45ACP running good. I guess I'm allowed to hijack my own thread.

[DougGuy]

If you want to send the Clements cylinder I can lap it out so all your boolits can interchange.

[44MAG#1]

Wasnt rocket science was it?

[alamogunr]

If you want to send the Clements cylinder I can lap it out so all your boolits can interchange.

Thanks! I think I will hold off for now and see how my efforts work out. Maybe later.



Wasnt rocket science was it?

Good thing! As I said, I'm not a rocket scientist.

[MT Gianni]

At the minimum sort your brass by revolver used and keep it for the same gun. You may find you can partially size or neck size the top half to extend case life if you keep your cases separate. If not the expansion will give you a shorter case life. This only works if the chambers are close in all cylinder holes in each gun.

[ReloaderFred]

Well, since nobody else has, I'll post the link to the SAAMI specs for both the cartridge and the chamber for .45 Colt: http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/45%20Colt.pdf

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Mitch]

John happy to hear you have the problem figured outfigured out.

As for the rocket science.They are nothing more than a controlled explosion.So maybe you have found a new calling.Imagin what fun reloading one would be lol

have fun with the 45s

Bob