Significant users' observations on powders?

[Blackwater]

Fellas, you guys have positively RUINT me! THANKS! I want to get some of these surplus powders, now. Have never tried them, though, so was wondering if you've noted any general characteristics with any of them, such as larger than expected pressure excursions with relatively small increases in charge wt. I know ball powders of ALL types, regardless of make, are sometimes noted to produce large pressure increases with small increases of charge wt., so just want to be aware of any such observations you've noted.

Specific powders I think I may be interested in getting are WC-820, WC-680, and IIRC, WC-844 and 846 (the H335 & BLC2 rated milsurp powders). Any info on the others would of corse be appreciated by myself and others who hang out here, too, though, so ALL info you can contribute would be appreciated, I know.

Re the comment about ball powders, I think ALL powders CAN give some unexpected results, and that's one of the values of having a chrono. Once got some VERY large (over 100 fps!) variations with IMR-4320 in my Ackleyized Whelen with 250 gr. bullets, and THIS is "THE" classic powder for the std. Whelen, so I want to acknowledge and make CLEAR that I know that ALL LOADS WITH ALL POWDERS MUST BE SUBSTANTIATED AND THIS INQUIRY AND ALL ANSWERS THERETO MUST BE CONSIDERED AS INDIVIDUAL INSTANCES AND NOT NECESSARILY AS GENERALIZED CRITICISMS OF ANY OF THESE POWDERS.

I know most in our world today LIKE to think of every pursuit as being foolproof, but that just ain't so, and this thread and all responses to should be considered on their own individual merits and NOT misapplied across the board without good and substantial reason. My 4320 load for my Whelen is just one example of an individual powder/load combo that for some as yet unknown reason didn't work in MY gun, but MAY work in yours.

There, did that do a half decent job of acknowledging that I'm just looking for any warning signs you've all run into? Thanks for any observations you can provide.

That 820 sure seems to be a fine powder for the big revolvers, particularly the magnums like the .357 & .44.

Anyone noted where, pressure wise, 846 & 844 tend to give best accuracy in most applications you've tried it in? I, for instance, have noted that IMR-4064 tends to shoot best at just under max, while 4350's tend to shoot best (most often) right at max in most guns I've tried.

Accuracy/pressure considerations are what I'm mainly after, but all other worthy observations are appreciated.

[BCB]

Blackwater,

I use the WC-820 (lot # 47320), WC-680 (lot # 47269) and WC-844 (lot # 726 although that number is probably not the actual lot #. It was purchased from McDonald).
I use the WC-820 in the 357 and 44 Magnums with cast bullets. My lot loads exactly with AA # 9 data. I have shot loads with #9 and 820 side by side and they chronograph the “same” velocities—I think they are the same powders, at least my lot is. WC-680 is loaded with AA-1680 data and shoots the predicted velocities as indicated in the Accurate reloading manuals. I don’t use much of it. Limited use in the 44 Magnum and the 445 Super Magnum. Don’t seem to be a real useful powder for my needs. Now then, the WC-844 is one of my favorites. Sure wish I would have purchased many more 8-pound kegs! Mine is a grain or two slower than the 8-pound keg of H-335 that I have. The WC-844 shoots cast extremely well in the 7-30 Waters and the 30-30 Winchester barrels for my Contender. The 844 shoots unbelievable in my T/C 16” 223 Remington barrel that I have for my Contender. A 45 jacketed slug trucks along at near 3200 fps (probably near or at maximum load) and shoots honest 1+ inch groups at 200 yards. I shot ‘chucks with it the past summer at 234 yards (the longest shot) but many were right at the 200+ yard mark. So, did I get any dangerous surprises—Nope. I just used recommended data and started low and worked my way up the line. I have other surplus powders also, and they have been predictable with pressures if good data and common sense were used. Good-luck…BCB

[felix]

Blackwater, a couple of points. Any sharp shouldered case will make a given powder faster in burning rate, perhaps a jump or two in the "charts". Most, if not all, medium speed or slower powders on the chart do work best at higher pressures, say 35K minimum cup. This means that it takes more slow powder than the case will hold to get to 35K. Not good for condom boolits, but sometimes good for lead projectiles, because for the most part the lead boolits are limited to 2400 fps for any continuance in accuracy. ... felix

[PatMarlin]

Blackwater...
you sure your weren't a little "RUINT" before we got to ya?. :mrgreen:

[lar45]

WC820 may need a Mag Primer to get it started in cold weather.
Partial case fills on a 44 mag worked fine for low velocities around 800fps.
It seems to burn faster in a 357 case then when used in 454.
In the 454, I need 2 gns less WC820 to get the same velocity as 296.
It is bulkier than 296, so you can't get the same charge weight in the case when full.
WC680 Needs a mag primer to avoid squibs in the 45-70 with partial case fills.
Both seem to burn fine in an 06 or 30-30 case with 10gns and a regular pistol primer.

IMR 5010 should not be shot over a chronograph when used in straight walled cases. It left a few grain sized holes in my display:o

I wish I had a jug of WC844 to try. I may get some surplus IMR 4895.

[felix]

Lar, get 4895, 844 (223C), 846 in one shipment and you will have all medium speed apps covered. If powder valley has these three, also get the data 73 for something a little closer to 3031. ... felix

[Headstamp]

Felix, If I may ask, how does the Surp 4895 compare to the commercial stuff in burning speed? Fairly close?

Thanks

[felix]

Close, but no guarantee of how close. There have been hundreds of lots of this particular number, and made by various plants. I would guess plus or minus 10 percent about the average burning rate. ... felix

[Headstamp]

Thanks Felix.

http://felix.goldenagecartoons.com/felix01.gif

[felix]

Headstamp, a great show! Thanks for the NEW felix logo. Now, should I use it instead of the felix carrying the bomb? ... felix

[Headstamp]

I actually like the bomber nose art. Although this one is interesting. http://tn2.deviantart.com/300W/fs6.deviantart.com/i/2005/090/a/1/Betty_Boop_x_Felix_The_Cat_by_Z0har.png

Here's a few sites for you if ya like.

http://felix.goldenagecartoons.com/ftcclassicfilms.html

http://images.google.com/images?q=felix+the+cat&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-01,GGLD:en&start=20&sa=N

[BlueMoon]

Felix, If I may ask, how does the Surp 4895 compare to the commercial stuff in burning speed? Fairly close?

Thanks


I would like to ask if the surp 4895 is stick or ball powder? Are any of the surp powders stick or all they mostly ball type?

Bill

[sundog]

BlueMoon, I know the answer to your question. Surp IMR 4895 is new manufacture, and I can't tell the difference between it (looks or burn rate) and the stuff you pay alot for that comes out of the purple can (cannister). Certainly worth the price! What I noticed especially is the very aromatic ether smell when I first opened the jug. Seems very new and very fresh!

Funny you should ask, because I burned some last evening when I got home from work. 33 gr with a 314299 sized to .311 with FWFL, seated to lightly engrave, and shot in a RI 03 HS bbl with Lyman peeps. One holer at 50 yards for 3 shots. 35 gr gave a 3/4 inch horizontal spread. Bore is clean as a whistle! Gonna 'spearmint' with this load some more.... sundog

[BlueMoon]

Thanks Sundog,

I may have to get a jug of that. Felix said it may vary 10% in speed, and that makes sense, but I got to thinking of 3031 to 4064-4320 and that's still usefull.

Bill

[BlueMoon]

I ordered 8#'s of 4895 and WC820(n) from Hitech ammo out of St. Louis. I ordered online but wish I had called instead. I never did get to see the final bill with the hazmat added but the shipping was $8. I've already got 8lb jugs of AA's 4350, 4064, and 2230-C so I hope I'll be set on bulk powder. I got a email this evening that the powder was shipped and should be here friday but I've never delt with a place that didn't show a complete bill first.

Bill

[felix]

Bill, Hitech is honest, so don't worry about it. If a mistake is made, it is a mistake only. ... felix

[PatMarlin]

I just ordered from Hitech over the phone, and got some 4895 also and 820, 872, but made up a hazmat fee waved order.

Sundog-

I just bought a 314299, and can't wait to try here in my fat thutty aught six. Maybe my 300 whinney too.. :bigsmyl2:

[fecmech]

Dan I believe is the name of the fellow at Hytech and a very accomodating guy. I called him about a month ago and said I would be passing thru St Louis on a Saturday and could I get some powder on my way. He told me to call when I was a couple hours out and he'd meet me with the stuff at his place. Worked out great, He's not far off the by-pass and with no hasmat or shipping fee the primers and powder were dirt cheap. Nick

[BlueMoon]

Bill, Hitech is honest, so don't worry about it. If a mistake is made, it is a mistake only. ... felix


Thanks, thats kinda what I thought. I've heard nothing but good things about these people.

Bill

[Blackwater]

HiTec has primers too? DANG! I AM ruint now!

And Pat, ya' got me! [smilie=l:

[PatMarlin]

I "ruinted" myself with CCI large pistola primers from Hitech too...:mrgreen:

Hey Blackwater- how's that WB rascal doin'? :hijack:

[Blackwater]

Don't know, Pat. Haven't heard much from him lately. Maybe he's found a girlfriend? :wink:

[ammohead]

Blackwater,

One thing I have noticed with 820. The granules, balls, are so fine that if your pistol has a large cylinder to barrel gap, you can end up with powder granules finding their way into the chambers of the unfired rounds quite a ways up the case. Then when fired it can leave indentations in the brass. If this happens to you as it did to me, don't be as diligent in cleaning the cylinder face and this gap will shrink some. My problem went away.

ammohead

[Blackwater]

Thanks, ammohead. This is exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for. Does that unburned powder go away if you load hotter? I know some powders can be dirty until you get them into their preferred burning range, and wonder if this is true of that one?

[Buckshot]

I would like to ask if the surp 4895 is stick or ball powder? Are any of the surp powders stick or all they mostly ball type?

Bill


..........Last 4895 I bought was new pdn @ $80/8lb. On the same order a buddy bought PD @ $72/8lb and danged if I could see any difference. It's extruded powder btw. Most the milsurp is ball as Olin runs the plant in Baraboo, Wisc.

The 4895 was a touch slower then canister grade IMR. Don't know about H4895, but you can safely use IMR data out of the book and adjust up if needed (or you have the room :D).

BTW, all Bartlett has left is 1972 PD 4895 and it's close to gone, bummer.

............Buckshot

[Headstamp]

Thanks for the info.

Is that going to be it for the Surp powder? I heard the guv won't allow it's sale anymore along with components?


Regards

[BlueMoon]

[QUOTE=PatMarlin]I "ruinted" myself with CCI large pistola primers from Hitech too...:mrgreen:


I was tempted by the primers but I mostly need standard large rifle along with large pistol and I don't care for CCI200s in some powder combinations and for large pistol I've been using either WW or RP and don't worry about magnum or not. I wish he had another brand.

My two jugs arrived just fine and both say military surplus gunpowder. Both looked and smelled good and everything was hunky-dory.

Bill

[BlueMoon]

Blackwater,

One thing I have noticed with 820. The granules, balls, are so fine that if your pistol has a large cylinder to barrel gap, you can end up with powder granules finding their way into the chambers of the unfired rounds quite a ways up the case. Then when fired it can leave indentations in the brass. If this happens to you as it did to me, don't be as diligent in cleaning the cylinder face and this gap will shrink some. My problem went away.

ammohead


I've got a GP100 with a large gap but I plan to use mag primers with the WC820 and if that don't work, buy some small rifle primers to try.

Bill

[David R]

296 does the same thing. I got an awful powder burn from my 357 Resting on my off hand (stupid). Those tiny granuals are really moving, they got penatration in my skin. Never did that again.

David

[41 mag fan]

Could someone help me on this issue.I've decided to try the milsurp powder.(I only live 60 mi. from GI Brass).Lots of visits soon to Owensboro Ky! Where would i get info on cross referencing milsurp powder to the over the counter powders?Will mostly be used in big bore handguns and rifles.Thanks for directing me in the right direction

[Buckshot]

Could someone help me on this issue.I've decided to try the milsurp powder.(I only live 60 mi. from GI Brass).Lots of visits soon to Owensboro Ky! Where would i get info on cross referencing milsurp powder to the over the counter powders?Will mostly be used in big bore handguns and rifles.Thanks for directing me in the right direction

..............Well first of all, welcome to the board! There are a LOT of surplus users here. As a rule, the Surplus dealer will have " Use Like " data they suggest. I'd like to add to their use like suggestion. That would be to use a light book load for the comparison powder, and also a light bullet or Boolit.

Over the years there have been lots of WC852 (NLA), 4895 and WC820 where using the faster lots in heavy or heavier loads could get one into trouble. Even if the seller says that the surplus is from a familiar outfit normally dealing in canister stuff, and is a direct cross with XYZ, still play it safe and load a few lighter book loads to test for sure.

.................Buckshot

[Ricochet]

I've only used my WC820 (a pulldown lot comparable to AA #9) in full power loads in .44 Magnum and find it very clean burning there.

I learned nearly 30 years ago to keep skin far away from revolver cylinder gaps. Got my Walker replica jammed with a burst percussion cap between the cylinder and recoil shield, and figured the easiest way to deal with it was to assist the cylinder rotation with my left hand as I cocked it with the right, pointed in a safe direction. Just as I got it cocked, but not quite latched in the sear notch, my thumb slipped and it fired. My left index finger went numb like I'd hit it with a hammer, and was blackened. I had three particles of half-burned FFFg embedded in the crease at the last knuckle, and thirty years later I still have a black dot tattoo from one of them.

[WyrTwister]

I would like to ask if the surp 4895 is stick or ball powder? Are any of the surp powders stick or all they mostly ball type?

Bill

Extruded ( stick ) .

God bless
Wyr