.35 Rem and IMR 4227

[Battis]

I use IMR 4227 in my Winchester Self Loaders and it works great.
I'm planning to load for my Remington Model 8 .35 Rem with a .358 - 158 gr cast bullet. Lymans lists IMR 4227 for a 190 gr bullet (for .35 Rem, not specifically the Model 8), but that's the lightest bullet listed. Anyone using this powder with a pistol bullet in the Model 8?


I also have Reloader 7, IMR4064 and H4895 powders.

[357Mag]

Battis -

Howdy !

I DK if this helps any, as I am shooting reduced loads from a 24" M-336 XLR .35Rem....

Read elswhere on this site, some experiences of a ballsitics lab expert; who reported on "ringing of the chamber" .
Based on what he saw during the tests, IMR 4198 could be used @ lower charge levels than what IMR4227 could.
Checking case " fill " w/ the powder to base of bullet: IMR 4227 was not good to go w/ charges less than 70% of "fill ".
IMR4198 could be used w/ charges as small as 50% of " fill ". The author also stated that 2400 could be used @ pretty much any charge desired, and stood alone on that point amongst the other powders tested.

I mention this in case your use of pistol bullets ends up working better w/ smaller charges of fast(er) powder ?

I also DK if it helps, but for info: It is possible to shoot Dead Center's .35 cal swaged 195gr SPBTs " patched ", from
a M-336. Dead Center also makes a .35gr swaged 175gr SPBT. Both have a plastic aero cap over their hollow cavity.

These are perhaps potential boolits offerings that are lighter-than the 190 - 200gr stuff.


With regards,
357Mag

[357Mag]

Correction to previous:

" .35 cal Swaged 175gr SPBT ".


With regards,
357Mag

[quack1]

I have used IMR 4227 with a Lyman 358311 in my Remington model 14. 14 grains gave 1400fps. I could never get that 160gr bullet to shoot as well as a Lyman 358430 at 196gr.

[Battis]

I'll probably get larger bullets at some point but I have the .358s on hand (Grumpa-made brass on the way). In the Winchester Self Loaders, the 4227 fills the cases and is slightly compressed. I'm not too concerned with accuracy as long as the charge works the action enough to eject the case. Plus, I'm thinking that the lighter bullet would be easier on the rifle and me.

[justashooter]

you could do as well to use 8-10 grains or so of unique or Hercules manufactured herco for about 1100 fps, getting up to 1300 with either powder before law of diminishing returns applies. kapok pillow stuffing keeps powder near primer, though this is not really necessary. bullets seated out as far as reasonably secure to near the rifling and single loaded will increase accuracy.

no load short of a factory load will cycle by recoil in the Model 8. manual stroking only, which is difficult on this kind of long recoil action. loads like you suggest are better used in marlin 336 or Remington 14/141.

H-4227 (or IMR) is really an early mag pistol powder kinda like WW-296 or H-110, suitable in 351 win and 30 carbine.
H-4198 (or IMR) was designed as a substitute for black and semi-smokeless in straight wall rifle cases like 38-55 and 45-70, producing similar velocities with similar charge volumes.

neither is really designed for reduced loads, or full power rifle loads in moderate sized medium bore cases like 35 Remington or 300 savage. both powders go back to the early years of the 20th century, being specifically tailored for the needs of certain cratridges of the day. Philip Sharpe had a very good write-up on this in his classic, Handloading (1957?).

[Battis]

Some powders are hard to come by in my area, but IMR4227 seems to be readily available. And, it's perfect for the Winchester Self Loaders and several other guns that I load for. The trick, or challenge, is to find the minimum load that will work the "self loading" action and go from there. With the Winchester .401, 24 grs of IMR 4227 is the minimum. I loaded up 20 or so with 25-26 grs (Western Bullets sized at .406), which was just right. Very accurate, and pretty stout recoil (I forgot the butt recoil pad, which would have helped. I named the rifle The Big Ouch). Great shooter.
I'm curious about the 4227 in the Remington's long recoil action. I just got a bag of Grumpa .35 Rem brass (looks really good) and as soon as I get this Model 8 back together, hopefully by 2019, I'll head to the range. This rifle is a challenge to take down/reassemble.
Side note: to remove the barrel nut, you need a spanner wrench. I don't have one and don't know which one to buy, so I made one. I took the locking collar from an old RCBS die, removed the set screw, slid the collar over the barrel nut, stuck a sharp screwdriver/pick through the hole in the collar and into the hole in the nut. When I turned the collar, the pick held tightly in the nut's hole, and it unscrewed easily.

[Battis]

I loaded up a few rounds with 22 grs IMR4227 and 158 gr .358 bullets. Other than one failure to feed (I think I had the mag spring in wrong), each round ejected and the next fed in. The recoil was mild, probably too mild. The only problem I see is that the primers backed out. I've read a lot about that problem - it's a headspace problem or too light a charge. If I increase the load, and they still back out, then it's a headspace problem, right? I'll neck size the cases and increase the load and see what happens.
It is like shooting a pogo stick.
I also tried a few rounds with Bullseye but they did not eject (4.5 grs).

[EDG]

Old but official IMR data is on page 50 of this pdf. There is also some lower pressure Contender data in the Contender section.

http://stevespages.com/pdf/imr_reloading.pdf

[EDG]

If you have a Hornady shoulder bump tool (length to case shoulder gauge) you can set your dies to hold the case shoulder about .001 or .002 short of the chamber shoulder. That may help prevent the primers from backing out. I have backing out with low pressure loads but max loads (not very high pressure for the .35 Rem) do not back out. I have shot a few hot loads in a 760 Remington and they have no back out at all and the rifle works fine since it was also designed to work with the really high pressures of the .270 and 6mm Rem.

I loaded up a few rounds with 22 grs IMR4227 and 158 gr .358 bullets. Other than one failure to feed (I think I had the mag spring in wrong), each round ejected and the next fed in. The recoil was mild, probably too mild. The only problem I see is that the primers backed out. I've read a lot about that problem - it's a headspace problem or too light a charge. If I increase the load, and they still back out, then it's a headspace problem, right? I'll neck size the cases and increase the load and see what happens.
It is like shooting a pogo stick.
I also tried a few rounds with Bullseye but they did not eject (4.5 grs).

[justashooter]

primers backing out and staying out usually indicates too much headspace and low pressure. too much head space and normal pressure would back the primers out and smash them back in very flat and tight to the ID of the pocket. you must be below 20KSI if your cases are not stretching and smashing the backed out primers. I am surprised that your gun autoloads. have you chronographed the load? WAG you are somewhere around 1800 fps.

[Battis]

I neck sized the fired rounds (Lee collet die), loaded them with slightly more IMR 4227 (23 grs) and loaded 5 more unfired cases (FL sized). All 15 rounds ejected.
5 neck sized cases had backed out primers (these were the first 5 rounds fired), 5 neck sized cases didn't, and the primers in the 5 FL sized cases were normal.
These cases are made by Grumpa from .308 brass. Maybe the powder charge is too light for the thicker brass. By the way, nice job, Grumpa.
I'm shooting 158 gr .358 bullets, which might be too light. They are very accurate, though. I might try other powders (H4895, Reloder7) and larger bullets.
This might be a good time to buy a chronograph.