Iver Johnson .38 cadet

[michael.birdsley]

Tried searching the forums but, no luck. I'm picking up a Iver Johnson cadet and a bag of misc .38 s&w ammo for 100 bucks on Thursday morning. Info seems scarce what's the good and bad about it. I realize it is a hundred dollar gun so I'm not expecting anything spectacular though it looks to be in good shape. Some cylander ware. Maybe just letting the fiancé shoot it. Also maybe using it to cast my first boolits with it?
These arnt my pics but, from the seller

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[FergusonTO35]

Neat little piece. As far as I know these were made in the 1950's and 60's and are similar to the H&R solid frame revolvers. As such, you should be able to feed it more lively ammo than factory; exercising due caution of course.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

167095167096

Does it have the same double-action hammer lifter as the hinged-frame Iver Johnsons, shown in black in this drawing, on the same axis as the pawl and with a single spring to force them apart? It has an interesting pedigree. Apart from being extended upwards to form a safety transfer bar, it comes from the French M1873 ordnance revolver.

It isn't the pinnacle of gunsmithing, but Iver Johnson had a sound reputation, and it has more metal in the frame than a really light revolver with a hinge-out cylinder. Unless the cylinder walls seem unduly thin, it should be quite strong. With the single-action sear separate from the trigger, it most likely doesn't have the easily damaged half-cock notch we see on more old-fashioned design, like the Colt SAA.

[dubber123]

The solid frames are much more durable than the break tops. I'd suggest a slug of the barrel and cylinder throats. If standard for .38 S&W, the throats are probably in the .362" range, and will require fatter than normal slugs for best accuracy. It looks like a fun piece, I have enjoyed playing with a few break tops over the years. I'd be happy to run into one of those for $100. Enjoy :)

[michael.birdsley]

I found it in my blue book of gun values but, it said it had a 8 shot cylander but, I think that is a miss print. From what I can tell .22lr, .32 were the most common and .38 is the least common. I think from what I can tell it was made in the late 60's. Thanks guys I appreciate it.


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[michael.birdsley]

[QUOTE=Ballistics in Scotland;3628289]167095167096

"Does it have the same double-action hammer lifter as the hinged-frame Iver Johnsons, shown in black in this drawing, on the same axis as the pawl and with a single spring to force them apart?"


I don't know. When I get I'll look it over though.

[Thumbcocker]

Let us know how it shoots.

[michael.birdsley]

Let us know how it shoots.

I will planned on it once I got home about noon. I get out at 7am and I Have to go almost to Ohio for it from mid-Michigan

[Outpost75]

The post WW2 production H&Rs are solid, sturdy guns. They will handle the same loads as the S&W I and J frames chambered for the same rounds. Speer describes seating 148-grain HBWC bullets out long in .38 S&W brass to the same OAL as flush seated .38 Special wadcutters, about 1.15-1.20" OAL and using similar charges, 2.5-2.8 grains of Bullseye or 2.7-3.0 grs. of 231 or 3.0-3.5 grains of Unique. The HBWC bullets upset to fill the larger cylinder throats and barrel and the wadcutter bullet is both accurate and effective.

[rintinglen]

I gave one to my Father in Law about 30 years ago. They were common items in the discount houses back in the 60's and 70's. Mine came from a store named TG&Y, long since gone. They are solid strong guns, but have poor to lousy triggers and the sights are not always close to point of aim.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The post WW2 production H&Rs are solid, sturdy guns. They will handle the same loads as the S&W I and J frames chambered for the same rounds. Speer describes seating 148-grain HBWC bullets out long in .38 S&W brass to the same OAL as flush seated .38 Special wadcutters, about 1.15-1.20" OAL and using similar charges, 2.5-2.8 grains of Bullseye or 2.7-3.0 grs. of 231 or 3.0-3.5 grains of Unique. The HBWC bullets upset to fill the larger cylinder throats and barrel and the wadcutter bullet is both accurate and effective.

I think this would apply with .357 HBWC, and perhaps even flat based bullets if they were soft, and the loads the moderately powerful ones suitable for this gun. But at least some dies won't size the brass small enough to get a good bullet grip unless you use the slightly larger diameter bullets the .38 S&W was made for.

There is nothing wrong with this cartridge, and it beats me why the .38 Special became the dominant .38 for the decades between the brief period when it needed the extra capacity for black powder, and needed it for near-Magnum loads.

[FergusonTO35]

Probably, most people thought that longer case=more power.

[michael.birdsley]

Picked it up this morning havnt had time to shoot it. It's about what I expected blueing the frame is good some rust on cylinder but, I think it's just surface. Bore looks good and dry firing it and it functions. Ammo I got was kinda sketchy i think. Luckily I picked up some new Remington 146 grn target loads I think at gander mountain. Guess I didn't realize how hard it was to find .38 s&w. Only my Lyman reloading book had loads for it and only 3 cast loads for it. Neither my Hornady or Lee book had any thing. Tommrow I'll get pictures up and maybe shoot it before work.


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[michael.birdsley]

Well here she is. I havnt had time to shoot it yet because I am still on 12 hrs 7pm-7amhttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160429/b93b7ba352dd49be81005255fdec8008.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160429/0021a5f7865af7c805cd93c8740c78eb.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160429/beea398d697dbea2227c1a18e657d0c3.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160429/dc33b9861353eaa189ee9453e88a885a.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160429/06efe9f1e804767814ed5841457cb2b8.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160429/e749f90445bc05d773e520384ea122e8.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160429/a3406a567832b93b6d8a0ac57ce8d56e.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160429/51f93c934f710f1c4fcbd7bd8e9352fc.jpgb is this line in the case to prevent bullet jump?http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160429/1e93260ca2064e3b26698f78ce4a5187.jpg even some brasshttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160429/a4948536eed5396edc428b624c2a0844.jpg I have about 7 of these in the bag of ammo that looks like they didn't go off. Should I just tare down all the ammo that came with it. It's all Remington UMC. I bought a brand new box of Remington's at Gander mountain. Overall so far I am happy for 100 bucks


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[FergusonTO35]

Good example of an inexpensive gun that works well. I think they would still sell well today chambered in .38 Special and under $200.00.

[michael.birdsley]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160614/575556fad7b3a849ab15d9c26b2c824c.jpg

Range report!!! I'm kind of impressed for a 100 dollar revolver. This was at about 7 yards using Remington's .38 s&w target pistol/revolver rounds. A lot of un burned powder in the cases after reloading though. Buying some cerrosafe next week to start figuring out the dimensions of the barrel and cylinder. Fun little gun


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[rintinglen]

Assuming you have boolits of large enough diameter, (.361-.362) and you have a set of 38 special dies and a set of 9 mm dies, you can reload that brass quite easily. Decap and resize in the 38 SPL sizer die, expand with the 38 special expander die, and seat and taper crimp with the 9mm seater die. Of course, you could just BUY a 38 S&W set, but that would be too easy.

[Outpost75]

A Lee 9x18mm MAK die set used with .38 Special shell holder is the least expensive way to go.

[FergusonTO35]

I bet those groups would tighten up alot if you carefully work up a charge of Bullseye and use a harder boolit. .38 S&W factory ammo uses dead soft lead and powder puff charges so as not to blow up granny's old Young American.

[shoot-n-lead]

Been one of those in my family since I was 10yrs...it will shoot...like you said...it is a $100 gun.

I really don't like the ...no swingout cylinder...part.

[FergusonTO35]

I don't care for the chintzy no swing out part either, but it's still pretty good for a low cost design. I think that gun would sell well in .38 Special with a real world price of $150.00 or less. After all, people buy Hi-Points with their humongous slides and skinny low-cap mags. Something that works well at a low cost is always popular!

[michael.birdsley]

Assuming you have boolits of large enough diameter, (.361-.362) and you have a set of 38 special dies and a set of 9 mm dies, you can reload that brass quite easily. Decap and resize in the 38 SPL sizer die, expand with the 38 special expander die, and seat and taper crimp with the 9mm seater die. Of course, you could just BUY a 38 S&W set, but that would be too easy.

I bought the .38 s&w dyes and 200 pieces of brass from midway. I know Lee don't have anything close to diameter for the .38 s & w but, Noe does, might have save some money


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[michael.birdsley]

I bet those groups would tighten up alot if you carefully work up a charge of Bullseye and use a harder boolit. .38 S&W factory ammo uses dead soft lead and powder puff charges so as not to blow up granny's old Young American.

That is what I am hoping I have plenty of bullseye and unique.


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[michael.birdsley]

Being a quality tech at a very large machine shop I have access to industrial grade gage pins in my lab. Can I use gage pins to figure the diameter of my cylinders? We have every size from .1 - 1.0 obviously I would only take the cylinder in.


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[Ballistics in Scotland]

Indeed you can. There is no better way of doing it. For those who don't have such facilities, you can buy them singly for a few dollars on eBay, mostly from China and in metric sizes, but easily good enough for this purpose.

The absence of a swing-out cylinder and simultaneous ejection may be a nuisance to some people. But it is a whole lot better than trying to do expensive work cheap. New or used, it is far better than a semiautomatic for the money.

[richhodg66]

A couple of years a co worker was looking for .38 S&W ammo for his Dad's older Smith. I offered to load him some since he had let me hunt his property. It was my first and only foray into .38 S&W, but it seems everybody told me the problem is all dies are designed to size cases to take .357 bullets now which isn't optimal. I loaded 100 rounds, my friend said that would last him the rest of his life as he just kept it around to shoot the occasional skunk or whatever around the farm and I never heard back any results with the .359 bullets I loaded them with.

I still have the dies and some brass. Eventually, I'll have a revolver chambered for it, I have a thing for top breaks and really want a Webley in it.

[michael.birdsley]

A couple of years a co worker was looking for .38 S&W ammo for his Dad's older Smith. I offered to load him some since he had let me hunt his property. It was my first and only foray into .38 S&W, but it seems everybody told me the problem is all dies are designed to size cases to take .357 bullets now which isn't optimal. I loaded 100 rounds, my friend said that would last him the rest of his life as he just kept it around to shoot the occasional skunk or whatever around the farm and I never heard back any results with the .359 bullets I loaded them with.

I still have the dies and some brass. Eventually, I'll have a revolver chambered for it, I have a thing for top breaks and really want a Webley in it.

Yeah I noticed the lee dies that I bought for it came with the .38 acp sizing dye. Mine isn't a break open. It's a newer one built probably in the late 60's. It's nothing fancy as I only paid 100 bucks for it with some ammo and a couple pieces of fired brass but, it is fun and something different


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[michael.birdsley]

Indeed you can. There is no better way of doing it. For those who don't have such facilities, you can buy them singly for a few dollars on eBay, mostly from China and in metric sizes, but easily good enough for this purpose.

The absence of a swing-out cylinder and simultaneous ejection may be a nuisance to some people. But it is a whole lot better than trying to do expensive work cheap. New or used, it is far better than a semiautomatic for the money.

Thanks


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[MaLar]

I have a friend with some older ammo for sale if you interested? He has some other ammo also.

[michael.birdsley]

So I have finally measured the cylinder throat on the revolver. I used certified S.P.I gage pins. Throats # 1-4 were .360 in diameter. Throat #5 was .361. Now I have not slugged the barrel so I do not know the groove diameter yet ( I will do this over thanksgiving). So I am assuming I can not use a cast boolit bigger .360 or can I add .002 to the boolit diameter and use a .362 boolit? Even if the barrel dia. Was bigger IE: 363. I would still be restricted to my throat diameters? http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161119/bff911d58f6e36ede44bb6c4edf09ba0.jpg


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[cold1]

I like to use the little 9mm Mak bullets out of the Lee mold. I cast them out of pure lead so they will swage down in the forcing cone. Mine is a break top so I load it light.

[smkummer]

I am loading for this caliber in a pre-war Colt bankers special. Can't remember if I slugged the bore but .358 cast lead works fine. So if your bore diameter is close to .357-358, which sometimes is the case with later 38S&W revolvers, just load those bullets and your good. If your gun does acceptable groups on a 10 yard or less B27 human silhouette type target, your good to go as that is what this gun wAs made for. I see some of your ammo is 38 Colt NP (new police). The only difference is the flat nose. You also have some ballon cases in the group. They are fine to load if the coorisive primers ( all brass with brass or copper primers should be suspect) hasn't corroded the cases. I use the ballon cases for smokeless blanks. For cartridges that were duds, I have pulled the bullets, decapped, reprimed, reloaded and fired.

[bouncer50]

I have about 5 different 38 S&W. I use 38 Special dies. I use 38 hollow base wadcutters. The shirt will expand to fit the bore. The 38 S&W and the guns that shoot it are in my opinion not target grade. They were made for short range self protection. The 38 S&W is not a high power round. It is what it is a lower power round. But are still fun to shoot.

[michael.birdsley]

"I see some of your ammo is 38 Colt NP (new police). The only difference is the flat nose. You also have some ballon cases in the group. They are fine to load if the coorisive primers ( all brass with brass or copper primers should be suspect) hasn't corroded the cases. I use the ballon cases for smokeless blanks. For cartridges that were duds, I have pulled the bullets, decapped, reprimed, reloaded and fired.[/QUOTE]

I actually I didn't know that the flat nosed ones were for the new colt police rounds. So I take it I can fire the ballon cases. I didn't realize that those were with the ammo that I bought with the gun. Shortly after I bought the gun I bought some Remington cast .38 s&w, .38 s&w lee dies, and 200 star line brass.


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[michael.birdsley]

I have about 5 different 38 S&W. I use 38 Special dies. I use 38 hollow base wadcutters. The shirt will expand to fit the bore. The 38 S&W and the guns that shoot it are in my opinion not target grade. They were made for short range self protection. The 38 S&W is not a high power round. It is what it is a lower power round. But are still fun to shoot.

It's just a fun low cost project gun in a uncommon caliber I thought was cool. I thought that this is one caliber that screams to be castes for. I won't be using for carrying outside the home. Mainly for fun. I think the charge for bullseye or unique from the manual is only about 2.5 grains.


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[bouncer50]

Just a safety note on the 38 S&W i have seen a couple of them someone bored the cylinder out to shoot 38 Special wad cutters. In my opinion not a safe idea to do. The brass swells in the chamber.

[michael.birdsley]

[QUOTE=bouncer50;3850338]Just a safety note on the 38 S&W i have seen a couple of them someone bored the cylinder out to shoot 38 Special wad cutters. In my opinion not a safe idea to do. The brass swells in the chamber." How would you tell that? When I checked the cylinder throats they were at .360 wouldn't that be to big for .38 spcl?


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[michael.birdsley]

Delete this response

[Thumbcocker]

A lot of S&W victory models were bored out to .38 special and sold mail order in the 60"s. IIRC the gun Oswald used to murder Officer Tibbits was one.

[GONRA]

GONRA reminds ya'll that .38 S&W cases hava larger head diameter than .38 Special cases.
Use .38 S&W resizing dies.....

[michael.birdsley]

GONRA reminds ya'll that .38 S&W cases hava larger head diameter than .38 Special cases.
Use .38 S&W resizing dies.....

I bought the lee .38 s&w dye set


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[michael.birdsley]

So I just got done the a slugging this gun for the second time tonighthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/c24997db7da3b7426bb22ac031234816.jpg. The best I can the grooves at is .353 Which seems small for a .38 s&w. The only caliber markings are on the side and just say .38 caliber. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/2204d1566976e3620d49290441b031bc.jpg

The serial number has a G in it which, according to this guns.com article
http://www.guns.com/2012/03/07/fathers-gun-old-revolvers/ denotes it as a .38 S&W. I can not find anything on the internet that tells me how big the grooves or bore should be.


My calipers back up my mic. Any thoughts?


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[Pistolero49]

michael.birdsley,

PM with info sent.

[michael.birdsley]

After thinking about this. I went from the muzzle side. Could the muzzle have swaged down my slug?


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[dubber123]

As long as you are reasonably sure the cylinder throats are bigger than the bore, size to fit the throats and forget about the bore size would be my suggestion :)

I also think you are measuring the small, (bore) part of the slug, you want the groove, (deepest) part of the barrel. Spin the slug in your calipers and find the highest spot, I bet it is .360" or so.

[michael.birdsley]

As long as you are reasonably sure the cylinder throats are bigger than the bore, size to fit the throats and forget about the bore size would be my suggestion :)

I also think you are measuring the small, (bore) part of the slug, you want the groove, (deepest) part of the barrel. Spin the slug in your calipers and find the highest spot, I bet it is .360" or so.


Highest spot I can find is .3539 on the digital mitutoy's at work. I have double checked with blade mics, optical comparator, and cmm. The bore is about .349. Maybe it is leaded really bad in the barrel. I used certified gage pins for the cylinders 4 of the 5 came in at .360, one was at .361. Maybe it has lead in the grooves. I know it's a cheap gun but, I can't believe the would let it out the door .008 under sized. If my company did that we would be in a world of hurt.


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[Virginia John]

Outpost75 has the right idea. Lee also has a 9mm die for the Makarov that drops about .362.

[dubber123]

Highest spot I can find is .3539 on the digital mitutoy's at work. I have double checked with blade mics, optical comparator, and cmm. The bore is about .349. Maybe it is leaded really bad in the barrel. I used certified gage pins for the cylinders 4 of the 5 came in at .360, one was at .361. Maybe it has lead in the grooves. I know it's a cheap gun but, I can't believe the would let it out the door .008 under sized. If my company did that we would be in a world of hurt.


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VERY surprised it is that tight. The IJ's I had experience with were older, and were much more "generous" with their bores ;) I would still just size to throats and not worry. Start low and work up. I have shot .006" over bore with zero issues before.

[michael.birdsley]

VERY surprised it is that tight. The IJ's I had experience with were older, and were much more "generous" with their bores ;) I would still just size to throats and not worry. Start low and work up. I have shot .006" over bore with zero issues before.

I mean the factory Remington ammo shot fine. Maybe I'll pull one to see what that diameter is. It's just a fun gun. I think max load of unique from the books is like 2.6


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[dubber123]

I mean the factory Remington ammo shot fine. Maybe I'll pull one to see what that diameter is. It's just a fun gun. I think max load of unique from the books is like 2.6


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Your solid frame gun is much stronger than the old top breaks I have. It had a bunch of fun tinkering with one in just plain awful condition, just to see how well I could get it to shoot. Have fun with yours :)

[michael.birdsley]

It has 5 grooves. Is that a normal number of groove?


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[dubber123]

It has 5 grooves. Is that a normal number of groove?


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I believe S&W uses the 5 groove system, and it makes it very hard to measure. You have to hit the very peak of an opposing land/groove. Some use a specialized V block to measure these slugs. This also makes me think your barrel may be a bit larger than you think. At any rate, I would still size to the throats and have some fun shooting it. :)