Pre-64 Winchester Model 94 Advice

[SSBNsquid]

Walking around the local gun show this weekend I saw a plethora of pre-64 Model 94's. Some were outrageously expensive. But quite a few were reasonably priced. I don't mind dings and scratches (while sitting in the woods I like to wonder how my guns got all that character) as long as the rifle is serviceable. Does anyone have any advice on what to look for before I go back and buy one next month?

[pietro]

.

Welcome to the forum !

IMO, if it walks like a duck (pre-64 Winchester), sounds like a duck (etc, etc), I would suggest buying whatever style/condition you fancy, or what satisfies your wallet - as long as the bore was OK & the receiver not Swiss-cheesed for a scope sidemount. (which advice presumes the gun will be checked for metal & wood cracks, functioning, etc)


.

[243winxb]

For safety, you may want to go more modern and buy one with a safety. The old top ejection ones use a side mount to for a scope, not the best method. After loading, the hammer has to be let down. If it slips, you have an accidental discharge. Just ask the old guys at a gun club it there remember any accident. They did when i ask.
Winchester Model 94 Rifle
The Model 94 rifle was introduced in 1894 as Winchester’s first lever-action gun
designed for use with modern high-powered ammunition. Most commonly used as a
deer-hunting rifle, more than 5,000,000 Model 94s have been produced to date.
33
These rifles can unintentionally discharge in at least three different ways: when halfcocked
in the “safety” hammer notch; when moving the finger lever without touching the
trigger; and during unloading.
The Model 94 is based on a 1860’s lever-action design originally meant for rimfire
ammunition. Made substantially the same until about 1992, early models of this rifle
have no safety except for a half-cock position of the exposed hammer, which is
supposed to keep the firing pin off the cartridge. The user is expected to carry the gun
set this way, until prepared to fire—at which time he cocks the hammer fully back with
his thumb and pulls the trigger. Many product liability cases were brought against
Winchester when this half-cock failed in the field and the hammer fell forward
discharging the gun. This would occur, for instance, when the exposed hammer caught
on an obstruction like a branch or twig and was nudged out of the half-cock position and
discharged the gun.
34 Later models of the Winchester 94 are now equipped with formsof manual safety.

http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/buyerbeware.pdfThis is why i am not passing mine on to son or grandkids.

[Hick]

Of course, if you have any sense you never half-cock your rifle. Pre 94's are totally safe for all but those who don't care-- I think it's probably more dangerous to drive a car than to own a pre=64 Model 94.

[runfiverun]

if you can't put the web of your hand in between the hammer and the firing pin when lowering to the half cock position you need to learn the rifle.
not blame it.
over 5 bookajillion of these rifles have been made you'd think that maybe one time in my life I would have heard about them being made like a Remington 700 and killing everybody in sight.

OP I listen to them when working the action you should hear some distinctive clicks as the cartridge lever goes up and down.
that is the cartridge lifter locking in place in the up and down position.
you should also feel the lever be a little resistant at the top and bottom position.
a little more when you close the lever as everything locks into place.

the trigger might be a little floppy when the lever is closed and the rifle is cocked, that is of no concern. [a half inch of flop could be]
look the wood over real closely even though it's dinged up a bit, and missing much of it's finish, it shouldn't be warped or cracked or have oily looking spots at the tang or near the frame.
this is caused by over oiling the rifle and the wood soaking it up.
this leads to soft [or rotted] wood.

[OverMax]

The pre-64s 94s that are pricier are those in 32 special. They sell for a bit more $$. But for a hunting & target shooting gun. No doubt a 30-30 cal is the best for that.
Advice: Always check there bore for corrosion and the function of its lever safety.

[Scharfschuetze]

SSBN,

You should go by Boomer perhaps. :)

I was at the Puyallup show this weekend. Is that the one you were at? There was a Pre-64 there that was actually made in 1964. It must have been one of the last Pre-64s made. Kind of interesting and it was in pretty good shape too.

When buying a Pre-64, I look for one in generally unaltered condition. Some of what I like and don't like:

The first thing that I look for in a collectible rifle or carbine like the Pre-64s is for any extraneous drilling and tapping, such as for a side mount as mentioned above. If interested in buying such a rifle, then the price should reflect that and be a good deal under what an unmolested version brings. Dito for any aftermarket recoil pads.

After market sights like a Lyman or Redfield aperture sight are often a bonus. Many Pre-64s were drilled and tapped at the factory and some weren't. Depends on when it was made, but a good period aperture sight is great for accurate shooting and the carbines just look "right" with them.

The Model 94 is rarely seen in a sprung condition as they are adequately strong for the cartridges they were chambered in. Don't mistake slop in the lever and trigger as indicating a loose action. While there is some for and aft play in the trigger, once it's snugged up to trip the sear, it should break cleanly. Mine are in the 5 to 6 pound range.

Worn bluing is certainly normal, particularly one that's been in a scabard on a horse or hunted a lot, but that should also be reflected in the asking price. Some wear is deep enough to actually round out barrel markings. Same for the wood finish, although steam and patience can correct much of normal wear and tear to the good Walnut that the Pre-64s were made with. As noted above, a cracked stock or oil soaked stock is a no no.

Speaking of worn bluing, look and make sure that it wasn't refinished, either wood or metal. That will also drop the price, although many venders at gun shows seem to think that a refinished rifle is somehow an ultra valuable specimen.

I also check the throat and bore for wear and rough lands and grooves from the early erosive priming compound used in the early smokeless loads. Bring a mirror to check the throat. I use an M1 Garand bore mirror to do this.

Check the crown too. As 94s are normally cleaned from the muzzle end, sloppy owners often wear the crown and some of the rifling behind it by allowing a dirty cleaning rod to wear away the soft barrel steel. The crown can be repaired easily enough, but the rifling behind it is a harder nut to crack without shortening the barrel a bit.

Model 94 rifles are more valuable than carbines and if there are any special factory features then the price can climb alarmingly. Saddle ring carbines, flat barrel bands, trapper length barrels, octagon or half octagon barrels and what not are pretty rare finds.

Almost any Pre-64 in good to excellent condition is more than just a shooter. It is a collectible firearm that will only increase in value and make a great family heirloom to pass on.

Oh, and a Model 94 is not a dangerous rifle in the hands of a real rifleman. Careless shooters will have accidents whether there is a safety or not and as long as you understand the half-cock mechanism and use good common sense, then you'll be good to go. I've been shooting them since the mid 60s and I enjoy them immensely.

[modified5]

+1 on what everyone above said.
Except 243winxb. Sorry but I disagree. Do you need common sense while handling a Win94?
Yep, but you need it while handling any tool.
These loud lead throwers we call firearms just happen to require a little more.
Find a nice one, enjoy it, educate your children on proper handling of it and pass them on to them.
The thing about lever guns is that they are like Pringles and jello.
You can't stop at just one and there is always room for one more.
Also, thank you for your service squid. Much appreciated.

[SSBNsquid]

All,

Thank you for the replies and warm welcome. I greatly appreciate the sharing of your knowledge as well as your concerns. I hunted with an old 94 that my buddy owned for several seasons quite a few years ago. I never had a problem with the hammer, but I also checked it often when I was in thick cover. I'm trying to scratch my lever gun itch. I had to sell my Marlin 336 two seasons ago to help pay for some truck repairs, and I need to get another Black Tail gun for hunting Western Wa. Scharfschuetze I was in Puyallup on Saturday and at the Kitsap County show on Sunday. I hope to have the new gun before I leave this summer so I can hunt with it this fall, and start learning how to make my own cast bullets.

[osteodoc08]

You could do a lot worse than a pre 64 Winchester 94! Good luck on your upcoming hunting season.

[pmer]

If you are open to caliber you should look into a 32 Winchester Special. They have a slower twist rate of 1-16 and they shoot cast very good. With a 1-10 twist 30-30 you can get up 1800 FPS shooting cast pretty easy with out too much fuss. A 32 Win. Special can go way past that velocity with softer hunting alloys because of the twist rate. Another good one would be a 35 Remington in a Marlin; pistol and rifle bullets will work in a 35 Rem.

But either way all 3 are good calibers.

[salvadore]

Except for the buzz kill safety first types this is an informative thread.and pmer is right, the 1-16 twist is perfect for cast. My 32spec. does 1850fps with BlC2 and a 16" barrel. About an inch 5 shot group @ 50 yrs.

[runfiverun]

either the 30-30 or the 32 win will shoot cast all the way to jacketed velocity's without any issues.
if you do it right they will exceed jacketed velocity's.
it's not necessary in the field and nobody at the range cares.
but it is pretty easy to do.

[John Taylor]

Winchester Model 94 Rifle
The Model 94 rifle was introduced in 1894 as Winchester’s first lever-action gun
designed for use with modern high-powered ammunition. Most commonly used as a
deer-hunting rifle, more than 5,000,000 Model 94s have been produced to date.
33
These rifles can unintentionally discharge in at least three different ways: when halfcocked
in the “safety” hammer notch; when moving the finger lever without touching the
trigger; and during unloading.
The Model 94 is based on a 1860’s lever-action design originally meant for rimfire
ammunition. Made substantially the same until about 1992, early models of this rifle
have no safety except for a half-cock position of the exposed hammer, which is
supposed to keep the firing pin off the cartridge. The user is expected to carry the gun
set this way, until prepared to fire—at which time he cocks the hammer fully back with
his thumb and pulls the trigger. Many product liability cases were brought against
Winchester when this half-cock failed in the field and the hammer fell forward
discharging the gun. This would occur, for instance, when the exposed hammer caught
on an obstruction like a branch or twig and was nudged out of the half-cock position and
discharged the gun.
34 Later models of the Winchester 94 are now equipped with formsof manual safety.

Some of this is not right. The 94 was not based on a rifle design from the 1860's, it was a new design from John Browning. If the gun is working properly a branch will not set it off if caught on the hammer, the trigger would need to be held back. I wonder who comes up with this stuff.

[Outpost75]

I agree with John on this one. Have some experiene with this.

[JHeath]

Say does anybody know where I can get a saddle scabbard for my crossbolt safety Model 94? It needs to fit this:

[stubbicatt]

I've read this thread a couple of times, and didn't really see that I could add anything. But after reading 243Winxb posting again, I thought I'd just add, if walking about or using the rifle where you could drop it or something, how about carrying it hammer down, with an empty chamber, and levering a round into the chamber only when necessary, and ready to fire? The action is pretty darned fast, faster I reckon than thumbing back the hammer and shooting it that way?

[SSBNsquid]

Stubbicatt my usual m.o. when hunting with a lever action it's is to carry it with it slung over my shoulder when I'm hiking in/out on tote roads/forest service roads. Once I get into cover/thick stuff it's off my shoulder and moves from port arms low ready or one hand carrying it by the forearm depending on what I'm moving through. With all that moving around I've developed the habit of checking the hammer frequently. I don't move too quickly in the woods, in fact I spend more time squatting or standing around just looking and listening than I do walking it seems.

[rking22]

How in the world "people" can consider a modern striker fired pistol(think Glock type) safe, and a lever rifle with a half cock notch unsafe is beyond me. Either requires a pull of the trigger to fire, only the 94 requires a simultanious retraction of the hammer out of the half cock notch, then a release of said hammer. Same "keep your finger off the trigger" and "mind you muzzle" requirements. Mechinical safetys all are subject to failure, do not trust technology to keep you safe! Sorry for the rant, but good Grief......
On topic, if you find a nice pre 64 that appeals to you and has a decent bore, buy it. If you come to find it "not the one" sell it and buy a different one. They are not dropping in price! The hunt is halk the fun :)

[TXGunNut]

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your service. My dad was proud to be a Navy man. Winchester did indeed start making leverguns in the 1860's and the 1866, 1873 and 1876 models were based on Henry's design. Never considered them unsafe, either. The 1894 is somewhat similar to the earlier John Moses Browning designed 1892 but bears little resemblance to the Henry-based designs. Now that we have the safety briefing and a very brief history lesson out of the way I'd like to reinforce an earlier caution; these little beauties are habit forming! A nice enough and quite serviceable pre-64 94 can be found around here from $700 on up and some interesting ones can be stolen for under $1000. 30-30 is tough to beat but a 32 Special or 38-55 is worth a look.

[Char-Gar]

For safety, you may want to go more modern and buy one with a safety. The old top ejection ones use a side mount to for a scope, not the best method. After loading, the hammer has to be let down. If it slips, you have an accidental discharge. Just ask the old guys at a gun club it there remember any accident. They did when i ask. http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/buyerbeware.pdfThis is why i am not passing mine on to son or grandkids.


I guess at 74, I am an old guy and have been handling and shooting the 94 Winchester for over 62 years. The above is utter nonsense. A fool can hurt himself with an ordinary garden hoe. The 94 Winchester is plenty safe in the hands of a person who understands what is in his hands.

[Lead Fred]

When these rifles were new, there was common sense....

We have digressed so far, we hurt ourselves with simple to tools


https://s16-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstream1.gifsoup.com%2F view8%2F20140209%2F4974932%2Fif-i-only-had-a-brain-o.gif&sp=72b8afbb4b56b99852e0e363b5efd3e4

[Scharfschuetze]

My personal experience as an LEO was that about 10% of the population suffer about 90% of the accidents and they suffer them again and again. Whether it's falling off of a roof or the unintended or careless discharge of a weapon, no warning label will ever stop these guys from maiming themselves or others. The trouble with them is that our current culture is producing them at an exponential rate. You see the results of their efforts almost nightly on the local news.

As a state certified hunter safety instructor, I drill future hunters about safe gun handling and to use but never... let me say that again... USE but NEVER depend on a mechanical safety. The real safety is between your ears. I have failed several students (much to their parents' chagrin) who just couldn't keep their fingers off of the trigger or to keep from pointing the muzzle of their firearm at another person during the field phase of the program.

[ben lurkin]

I'm curious as to why you want the pre-64 version. Unless you are a collector; I would pick up a post-64. They are just as good, and perhaps better, shooters since they generally won't be 50+ years old.

[243winxb]

I am 71, the "old guys" are 83 & 84. :grin:

[Wind]

Hey there SSBN -- Probably the most critical component with an older rifle is the condition of the bore. You might consider picking up a bore light to take with you to your next gun show. This will help with that inspection. A smooth action is also a plus. A seller might let you run a few factory snap caps through the action if you had some. Finish on stocks and metal will vary and that prolly boils down to personal taste. An advantage with older Winchesters is that the tangs were factory drilled for tang sights. These are a real asset, both hunting and plinking.

As well as Winchester, you might consider Marlin lever rifles as well. They have the advantage in ease of disassembly over a Winchester, and make cleaning from the breech a joy. Prior to WWII most of their tangs were also drilled and tapped. The same considerations with buying a Winchester would apply!

30-30's of either flavor can be hard hitting and plenty accurate...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E4abzmvio0

Hope this helps. Best regards. Wind

[Wind]

Hey again SSBN -- There apparently is a one video per reply limit so here's another you might enjoy...

And a newer Marlin Cowboy (shot by a retired Navy Master Chief)...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8bPEPc3fnA

Best regards. Wind

[Remmy4477]

Interesting. My 94 born in 1902 has never misfired in half cock.

[smokeywolf]

Grew up with Winchesters and Colts. Dad was a gunsmith, a collector and a historian of the American West. I've handled and shot pre WW II Winchester model '94s (and most other Winchester lever guns) since grade school. Never, I repeat, NEVER, have I had an unintended, unplanned, accidental, or negligent discharge of any firearm.

A model '94 is only as dangerous as the person holding it.

[Geobru]

One thing I ran into with a 1951 vintage 94 was the lever wouldn't stay closed, or would open at the slightest nudge. There was a problem with the lever safety button that has to be depressed before the trigger can be pulled. I had to do some work on that part of the action before it functioned as it is supposed to. I must be getting old, but I can't remember exactly what the problem was, only that it now functions like it was designed.

As far as the safety of the 94 goes, Years ago, one of the people I was hunting with had an unwanted discharge when he closed the action after loading the magazine tube. It could've been a tragedy because there were several hunters in close proximity, but fortunately the muzzle was pointed at the ground. Safety is common sense. Use it!

[M-Tecs]

Grew up with Winchesters and Colts. Dad was a gunsmith, a collector and a historian of the American West. I've handled and shot pre WW II Winchester model '94s (and most other Winchester lever guns) since grade school. Never, I repeat, NEVER, have I had an unintended, unplanned, accidental, or negligent discharge of any firearm.

A model '94 is only as dangerous as the person holding it.

I second that!!!!!!

[ofreen]

I'm curious as to why you want the pre-64 version. Unless you are a collector; I would pick up a post-64. They are just as good, and perhaps better, shooters since they generally won't be 50+ years old.

Work the actions on both if you ever get the opportunity. The reason will be obvious.

[ben lurkin]

Well, I do have my father's which was made in 1958. Definitely smooth but it should be since the thing has fired thousands of rounds. I'm well aware of the differences between the pre and post 64s. I'm not convinced this is a valid comparison unless both had similar round counts, but to each their own.

Cheers!

[Canuck Bob]

I bought a 32 Special early 50's 94. It was drilled and tapped for a Lyman 66. Because it had been d&t after delivery I got a good deal. Collectors value untouched original rifles. You seem ok with a shooter not a collectable so good deals are available when guns are reblued, refinished, and if you find one with a side mount scope or drilled holes for one they are cheap. Don't pay top dollar for an altered or non original rifle. My 94 including a Lyman 66 steel sight and in real nice equipment set me back as much as a newer model.

[Bill*B]

I've never consider external hammer rifles unsafe, and that external hammer is THE fastest safety - you bat it back as you raise the rifle to your shoulder - nothing is quicker. Pre-64s are nice, but the post 64 rifles give reliable service too.

[Char-Gar]

I bought a 32 Special early 50's 94. It was drilled and tapped for a Lyman 66. Because it had been d&t after delivery I got a good deal. Collectors value untouched original rifles. You seem ok with a shooter not a collectable so good deals are available when guns are reblued, refinished, and if you find one with a side mount scope or drilled holes for one they are cheap. Don't pay top dollar for an altered or non original rifle. My 94 including a Lyman 66 steel sight and in real nice equipment set me back as much as a newer model.

In 2007 Griffin and Howe had a 1954 Winchester 94 in 32 WS on their sale page. Because it had a Lyman 66 and a recoil pad installed, I got it for $300.00. The rifles was still stiff like a new one when I got it and perfect in every way. It is one of my most prized rifles and shoots cast bullets like a house-a-fire.

[45-70 Chevroner]

For safety, you may want to go more modern and buy one with a safety. The old top ejection ones use a side mount to for a scope, not the best method. After loading, the hammer has to be let down. If it slips, you have an accidental discharge. Just ask the old guys at a gun club it there remember any accident. They did when i ask. http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/buyerbeware.pdfThis is why i am not passing mine on to son or grandkids.
I really get my dander up when I hear thoughts like this. Any firearm whether it be a lever action a bolt action or a pistol or revolver is only as safe as the idot handling it. I have been shooting lever guns (with out safety's) for at least 55 + years and have never had one go off because the hammer got away from me.

[Greg B.]

I have a Model 64 carbine made in the 1940' s. It is very similar to the 94 only wih a pistol grip, shortened magazine and nose cap. They also made a Deluxe 64 with a nose cap that would accept a sling attachment and the stock had a stud for the rear sling swivel. I don't know if any 94's ever had these features but I wish I had them. As one of the other fellows mentioned some 94's came factory drilled for a receiver sight. I put a Williams Foolproof on mine and filed a brass plug to fill the old buckhorn dovetail slot. This allowed me to finally hit something.