Anybody shot a .22 Squirrel?

[Blackwater]

I've had a little Rem. M-580 single shot I've wanted to do something with for a long time, and just never got my round tuit to fix it up. The stock's chipped very badly and I don't like that little light wt. cylindrical barrel, and totally hate the little plastic cover that makes the barrel "look" tapered and bears the rear sight. Thought about getting one of Green Mountain's barrels for it, but now that .22 LR's are made of unobtainium, I keep thinking of getting a new bolt for centerfire. The .22 Squirrel, for any who don't know, is a shortened .22 Hornet with a K-Hornet type shoulder so it aids headspacing, and prolongs case life if dies are properly adjusted for the chamber.

I'm figuring it ought to recreate in centerfire everything from .22 LR (maybe .22 short with .22 pellets?) to .22 Mag, and with the right twist (I'm figuring 1:14") should shoot some heavier bullets when loaded up to full potential. It'd also make a neat, light little gun if the barrel is short.

Has anyone done this or know anyone who has? I've only read about what James Calhoon and some others are doing for these little Rem. 580 series guns, and now that it's so hard to find .22 RF's, I have renewed my interest in this. Any info along these lines would be appreciated. I don't like to jump in the water until I do a little investigating first. Anyone know a good 'smith who can make a new centerfire bolt for these guns? Calhoon's pretty proud of his work, but I suspect he has the knowledge and experience on thse guns to do it right, and doing it right the first time usually pays off in the end, and winds up being the cheapest and most satisfactory.

So anything you know is appreciated, and thanks ahead of time for any info you can provide.

[Baja_Traveler]

I was considering doing much the same thing since I'm sitting on 600 unfired 22 Hornet cases I could convert. Even more interesting to me is the .17 Squirrel @ 3500 fps - Pretty much a reloadable 17HMR.
Thing is, once I did the math it turns out that loading for it would cost just about the same as simply buying 17HMR and Hornet brass is not exactly easy to find either.
Once I got my Redding forming dies, and proved to myself that I can easily make .218 Bee cases from Starline 32-20, I decided that I would just standardize on it for now (and as a bonus my Marlin shoots cast really well). Now I'm saving up for a Bee barrel for my CPA so I can shoot long pointy Vmax's that my Marlin will not stabilize.

[Traffer]

I went the other way and started reloading 22lr. It was quite a challenge at first. Now however I have found some others (actually on cast boolits) that are also reloading rimfire. We have been sharing some of our info and now I am looking forward to digging back in with renewed vigor. In my research I have found articles and some info on Calhoon's and others work. There is a website dedicated to the very small center fire stuff I will try to dig it up for you.
Here it is, Have fun:
http://www.saubier.com/articles.html166925

[Nobade]

I have a 580 I converted to 9mm. That works well, cheaper to shoot than a 22LR and a lot more effect. I have been thinking about doing one in the 5.7mm FN cartridge, the length is about right and easier to get fired brass than it is to find Hornet cases. Keep the loads light and the brass should hold up pretty well.

-Nobade

[flounderman]

the old 25-20 will do about anything you want for a squirrel rifle and a lot cheaper than a wildcat.

[Tenbender]

22 squirrel = 22 mag. Buy a 17 squirrel !

[Ural Driver]

............ but now that .22 LR's are made of unobtainium..... .


Don't know where you are located but there are plenty to be had in this area and has been for months. I was at Academy yesterday and picked up a brick of Remington Golden Bullets for $40.....and no those were not the cheapest, but they were what I wanted. There were probably 20,000 rounds on that back counter with a limit of 500 per person/per day. I would assume there were more in the store room. I gave 1200 .22 shorts to my brother because he could not find them in has area. I saw a stack or two of them also. He prefers them for squirrels.

[richhodg66]

For what it's worth, the standard .22 Hornet downloads and shoots cast very easily. Considerably cheaper than .22 LR even at before the scare prices.

[Blackwater]

Yep. If the action was long enough for a std. Hornet, that's what I'd do, probably, but it's too short for a full length Hornet, and I want to shoot cast from as low and mild as I can go without sticking a bullet in the barre, up to about .22 WRM ballistics. That'll do 90% of what I want to do, would be cheap on powder and lead, and would simply be fun to shoot. Also, I could carry both hot and mild loads and if I can get scope settings to work with each, interchange them at will and need when I'm at the river or in the woods. That would make it awfully versatile, and with good work and good casting and loads, it ought to be very accurate.

As to the .17's, I don't know if anyone makes molds for that caliber. Do they? From what casting I've done, I think .22 is about as small as I want to go, though. And I'll likely want to eat some of the stuff I shoot, and so the .17's, that can be so explosive, would kind'a inhibit a lot of that.

I'm still in the musing stage, but here where I'm at, .22 RF stuff is STILL hard to find. And, I think I could reload and cast for a .22 CF cheaper than, or as cheap as, .22 RF's, and still have the option of .22 mag. equivalent loadings. The appeal is growing on me significantly. I always knew and intended to do something special with this little gun. They're really pretty good actions. Just short and small diameter. 90% of what I'd do with it would likely be .22 RF or .22 WRF equivalent loads. Flat pointed bullets also have proven to be much better killers on edible stuff, like squirrels and rabbits, and they do it without messing up your dinner like HP's can do. King Solomon never ate better than a good squirrel stew!

Thanks for the comments. I'm still mulling it over. And thanks for the link to saubier. Haven't been there since I got this computer and lost the link. Appreciate it.

[Nobade]

Just a thought, a 25 Squirrel might be a little more cast friendly. Less likely to need gas checks and easier to get accuracy with. 60gr. flat points would certainly do the job on game up to coyote size.

-Nobade

[Blackwater]

Thanks, Nobade. I thought of that sometime past, but had forgotten about it. But you're right, I think. The squirrel would probably have a little better trajectory, I think? Sometimes I think the wretching over these decisions is what attracts us to these type projects. Personally, I think I might prefer the better accuracy and no need for a GC. You sure have me thinking!

[jmorris]

I have around 25,000 .22lr I bought at $7.98/500 but bought the lot when I found one of my target rifles really liked it, so didn't really want to just "burn it up" once .22lr was no longer in stores.

I kicked the idea around of a centerfire .22 kind of like the .22 TCM, I wound up getting a PCP air rifle. It does pretty much what I would be doing with a .22 out to 100 yards and is very cheap to shoot (not so cheap "buy in" though).

[Good Cheer]

25-20 can't be beat but seeing as the dies and mold are in the box mine would be chambered for the French 8mm formed from 32-20's. It's just a .33 Special and easy to make work.

[SSGOldfart]

I kinda kicked around on the 22TCM I made a version of the 22TCM back in the 70's we cut 223 brass down the 1.5 inches then ran it into a cut down sizing die,Mr Gates help me cut a contender barrel by 1/2 reaming old 22mag barrel 1st then later a 2nd barrel by cutting a .223 so that bore wasn't too tight, beware a 22LR& 22WMR bore is not always 22 caliber most will be closer to 20 caliber,if your going to go with reinventing the wheel,you might as well get the right bore size, so you can use the never ending list of.224 bullets or cast Boolits available today,I'm still leaning towards the 22TCM,because brass to make it is cheap and availability every where it's even the guns are available in the 1911 format/Armscor has a rifle chambered for 22 TCM and a 1911 package deal comes with a 9mm barrel too with magazines for both the 22TCM and 9mm. But all that said I'll still have a TC Barrel made for it to.

[Blackwater]

It'd be a .224" if I do it. Green mountain has barrels of 1.062" dia. for $94, and that'd likely be what I'd go with. Not looking for an ultimate target rifle, but want the best accuracy I can get and still keep the price as low as possible. I'm now starting to wonder if a CZ mini-Mauser in .221 or the std. Hornet might not be a better deal. Probably would be harder to get the LR equivalent loads, but .... they're darn fine rifles to boot. A friend had one in 7.62x39, and I really liked that little gun. I want to make that rifle into something, but still not sure just what to do. Decisions, decisions, decisions!

And BTW, went to the saubier site and also did a google search. Went through some 15 pages at saubier and couldn't find anything on the .22 Squirrel, but found a few on the .17, which I'm not interested in. Too much destruction for what I want to do. So I'm still vascillating. But the urge sure is getting stronger now! I've about ruled out the .25 because I don't need that much bullet, and want this to be as cheap and workable as possible as a substitute for both .22 RF and .22 WRF and .22 mag. That's good territory to be in for small game here, and the smaller and simpler I keep it, the better I think it'll serve my purposes. Kind'a neat to have the .22 LR and mag and a WRF loading all in one, neat, reloadable case, and I can change at will (if POI works out?) by just switching ammo. The lure of that thought/effort is getting stronger, the more I think and talk about it. Thanks for all the input. Knowing what it is I want the gun to be able to do is the first big step, and I think I've about quit vascillating on that issue now, at least. And I already have 2 .22 molds, so .... I think I'll stay with the .22. I'll need to get a new stock for it, but may try the old one, patched up at first, just to see what it'll do before putting any more $$$ into the project. And I've about decided to go with Calhoon if he's still doing this and the bolt conversion on these little rifles. Thanks. It's always good to have extra input to satisfy myself I'm not leaving anything out, or making any erroneous assumptions. Those can be costly and yield nothing in return.

[Traffer]

It'd be a .224" if I do it. Green mountain has barrels of 1.062" dia. for $94, and that'd likely be what I'd go with. Not looking for an ultimate target rifle, but want the best accuracy I can get and still keep the price as low as possible. I'm now starting to wonder if a CZ mini-Mauser in .221 or the std. Hornet might not be a better deal. Probably would be harder to get the LR equivalent loads, but .... they're darn fine rifles to boot. A friend had one in 7.62x39, and I really liked that little gun. I want to make that rifle into something, but still not sure just what to do. Decisions, decisions, decisions!

And BTW, went to the saubier site and also did a google search. Went through some 15 pages at saubier and couldn't find anything on the .22 Squirrel, but found a few on the .17, which I'm not interested in. Too much destruction for what I want to do. So I'm still vascillating. But the urge sure is getting stronger now! I've about ruled out the .25 because I don't need that much bullet, and want this to be as cheap and workable as possible as a substitute for both .22 RF and .22 WRF and .22 mag. That's good territory to be in for small game here, and the smaller and simpler I keep it, the better I think it'll serve my purposes. Kind'a neat to have the .22 LR and mag and a WRF loading all in one, neat, reloadable case, and I can change at will (if POI works out?) by just switching ammo. The lure of that thought/effort is getting stronger, the more I think and talk about it. Thanks for all the input. Knowing what it is I want the gun to be able to do is the first big step, and I think I've about quit vascillating on that issue now, at least. And I already have 2 .22 molds, so .... I think I'll stay with the .22. I'll need to get a new stock for it, but may try the old one, patched up at first, just to see what it'll do before putting any more $$$ into the project. And I've about decided to go with Calhoon if he's still doing this and the bolt conversion on these little rifles. Thanks. It's always good to have extra input to satisfy myself I'm not leaving anything out, or making any erroneous assumptions. Those can be costly and yield nothing in return.
You certainly do your research before getting into a project. I hope this project works out really well for you. Keep us updated. I learned a lot just reading all the posts. I am now very interested in the 25-20. I have always liked 25 to 26 caliber range bullet.

[Blackwater]

Will do, but I also have to fit it in whith the other projects that I've got already waiting in line. Only just so much money to go around, but getting the bolt conversion ought'a come first, then the barrel, use the old stock for some initial trials, then stock it and scope it. I like to have these things all worked out and finalized in my mind before I put any of it in motion. Even then, I'll som etimes change direction in the middle of the stream. I'm even thinking of a mannlicher stocked gun with short barrel. For what I'd likely be doing with this gun, a single shot will be quite acceptable, so I won't be converting it to a magazine feed. Don't have a clue where to get mags from anyway, but being able to open it up and change ammo to a performance level different from what's in it would be more useful, I think, than having a magazine. A nice, light, compact 2-7x scope, and I think it'd be good to go. Thanks for the input and help in getting my mind straight on it.

[nvreloader]

BW

Did you search Sauibier for 22 Squirrel/22 Mink info?,
there is very little difference between them,
I found 25+ pgs, lots of loading info etc.

Tia,
Don

[reed1911]

I shoot the .22 SQ, it's a fun little number, I have the whole SQ line but none of the Mink so I cannot compare the two side by side. With my 37g NOE it is a tack driver. The old Sisk bullets do well to, I'm working to bring some like it back, short little buggers.

[Blackwater]

Reed, do you mind sharing some of your load data and velocities? If you have the data, ES's would be interesting, too. My only concern is measuring the powder accurately, and I suspect I'd use .22 LR cases trimmed to whatever length to dip powder charges with, and what I did find indicated measuring powder charges was a great aid in getting best accuracy and results.

And Don, I didn't run a search. Looked, but apparently missed the search feature. I can do that sometimes. Thanks for the heads up, and I wasn't familiar with the .22 Mink. I'll take a gander at it as well. The thought of a cheap shooting, quiet and versatile little centerfire that's short, light and accurate has a lot of appeal to me these days. And I've gotten, over the years, to be rather priggish about my .22's, and now that I can't just go out and buy 6 or 7 different varieties of .22's to try and see which one my guns want, it'd be nice to have a gun where I could control the loads and keep them just right for the gun's preferences. I have at least 7 powders I could try now, and might try some more in it to see what works best at each performance level. The thought of shooting .22 pellets with maybe a dab of powder to mimic .22 Shorts is appealing too. Ironically, I've found .22 Shorts to be better squirrel killers than LR's. I laughed at that the first time I read it, but then came a day when I couldn't find ANY LR's, and had to settle for shorts, and that day taught me not to laugh at experience any more ... for a while at least. I couldn't understand how that worked, and still only have theories, but I couldn't not notice the difference. Every squirrel that hit the ground, did so dead with the shorts, while LR's let many scramble off a ways with body shots, which was all I had sometimes, when the head was hidden.

A neat, cheap to shoot rifle that mimics the .22's, short, LR and mag., just seems like something I need now. I'd be in new ground for me, but you never learn if you keep doing the same old things all the time. Even us old dogs CAN learn a new trick or two! Now let me go check out saubier again, and thanks for the heads up.

[Blackwater]

Well, I just went through 19 pages of stuff at saubier, but little of it was about the .22 Squirrel, though enough was to give me a good idea of what to expect, and it seems the performance levels I seek are right in line with what the squirrel can provide. There are some indications that the 5.7x28 may be another good option, and factory dies and brass would be a nice perk for it. Got some good info on doing the conversion of the little 580 action to CF. Biggest thing I noted wherein I'd assumed one thing and found another was in the twist rates these guys who've worked with it seem to prefer, which is 1:10 rather than the 1:14 I'd anticipated. However, they're using jacketed bullets, and I'm not sure I'd ever shoot any of those in my gun, and I still think the 1:14" twist would be sufficient for the cast bullets I'd want to use in it.

Now, I'm thinking the 5.7x28 may be more advantageous now, what with factory brass and dies, and it seems like it'd be close enough that I could likely make it work. But I'm not sure what pressures the 5.7x28 operates at in factory loads, so does anyone here know that number in PSI? The loads I'd want to shoot would be way less than factory j-loads, but I'm wondering what would happen if someone put a factory load in it? I know the little action is very strong for its size, but not sure HOW strong for this type application. Many things I read said some very knowledgeable and trustworthy sources have said all of these options would be OK. Also, does anyone know what the SAAMI PSI is for .22 WMR? Seems like I read somewhere long ago that it's 30 or 40K PSI, but I cannot trust my faulty memory any more, and would like some confirmation of that. I know it's fairly "hot" especially as RF's go, and that brass is thicker so .22 mags. often require heavier firing pin springs for best ignition and certain firing. Can anyone provide info/comments on any of these? I think I may be about ready to start pulling the trigger on this one. And thanks for any help on the pressure issues.

[Traffer]

Reed, do you mind sharing some of your load data and velocities? If you have the data, ES's would be interesting, too. My only concern is measuring the powder accurately, and I suspect I'd use .22 LR cases trimmed to whatever length to dip powder charges with, and what I did find indicated measuring powder charges was a great aid in getting best accuracy and results.

And Don, I didn't run a search. Looked, but apparently missed the search feature. I can do that sometimes. Thanks for the heads up, and I wasn't familiar with the .22 Mink. I'll take a gander at it as well. The thought of a cheap shooting, quiet and versatile little centerfire that's short, light and accurate has a lot of appeal to me these days. And I've gotten, over the years, to be rather priggish about my .22's, and now that I can't just go out and buy 6 or 7 different varieties of .22's to try and see which one my guns want, it'd be nice to have a gun where I could control the loads and keep them just right for the gun's preferences. I have at least 7 powders I could try now, and might try some more in it to see what works best at each performance level. The thought of shooting .22 pellets with maybe a dab of powder to mimic .22 Shorts is appealing too. Ironically, I've found .22 Shorts to be better squirrel killers than LR's. I laughed at that the first time I read it, but then came a day when I couldn't find ANY LR's, and had to settle for shorts, and that day taught me not to laugh at experience any more ... for a while at least. I couldn't understand how that worked, and still only have theories, but I couldn't not notice the difference. Every squirrel that hit the ground, did so dead with the shorts, while LR's let many scramble off a ways with body shots, which was all I had sometimes, when the head was hidden.

A neat, cheap to shoot rifle that mimics the .22's, short, LR and mag., just seems like something I need now. I'd be in new ground for me, but you never learn if you keep doing the same old things all the time. Even us old dogs CAN learn a new trick or two! Now let me go check out saubier again, and thanks for the heads up.
When you talk 22 shorts you are talking my language. For the first 10 or 15 years of my hunting life I had a Winchester model 1890 Carnival gun that shot shorts only. It was the ultimate squirrel gun as far as I am concerned. I wish I still had it. But alas it did not survive my family. My brother stuck the muzzle in the water and fired it to "see what would happen". It cracked the muzzle about an inch down. Obviously the accuracy was gone after that. Then just for good measure, my little sister "gave" it to a boyfriend that I did not find out about for years. But I did get used to shooting the 22 shorts. I couldn't figure out why they even bothered making longs and long rifles.

[justashooter]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121184-Remington-580-into-a-9X19-pumpkin-gun

[reed1911]

.22 WMR pressure is 24K
5.7x28 pressure is 50K

With the 37g NOE at 1.205" OAL 4.0g Long shot is 1900FPS from my 12" barrel. I've played with lots of the typical powders, red dot, tight group, bullseye, etc.. But I keep coming back to this one. I throw all my charges, and for the little cases like this I throw and trickle up. Like with all small capacity cases it is much better to be very diciplined in loading, a small .2g change will effect accuracy a lot. If you'd like some to hold in hand drop me a PM.

[Blackwater]

Traffer, those 1890's were absolutely great old guns. Had a lot of screws in them, but VERY reliable, and possibly one of the most reliable little guns ever. A local dentist, well into his 80's here, collected them for many years, and had 150+ of them, most of which he'd done or had done some really great restorations on. Sadly, this great old man passed on a couple of years ago, and I miss my old friend. He showed me some tricks and techniques he used, and a gunsmith in Texas whose name I forget right now, but who used to do .45's and other stuff really well, and had a name in the glossy magazines, became friends with him because he could duplicate the old lettering very precisely on the barrels of those who needed to be refurbished, and a few other little things the doc couldn't or didn't want to do. His sons aren't "gun guys," but know they're supposed to be valuable, but have decided for now not to sell a one of these fine old guns.

If they ever decide to sell them, I want one the doc worked on, and if possible, I'd choose one of those gallery models strictly for shooting .22 shorts. Nothing anchors frogs quite like Short HVHP's. It's the most amazing thing I've ever seen, and proves there's more to killing game than Tim the Toolman's "More power!" If I can think of it, if they ever come available, I'll try to get in touch with you and let you know what's available. They really need to go to someone who'd appreciate and USE them. I think the doc would be very happy to see his work be appreciated.

And Justashooter, thanks for that link! I have it bookmarked now to refer back to, and suspect I'll need and profit by it. Thanks!

And reed, thanks for the specs. Those are very important, especially in the long run. I really liked the fellow's idea in the link above from Justashooter about running the 5.7 reamer in just a tad short so factory ammo won't chamber. That's put me on what I suspect may be the way I may wind up going. It would avert having to get custom dies, which is no small facor in $$$.

I'm not looking for a speed demon like most of the guys at saubier.com, just a good, cheap, effective and versatile cast bullet shooter, and I suspect the 1:14" twist would work for the bullets I have in mind. I already have the #438 and #415 Lyman molds, and some GC's. Thinking about having the #428 shaved off so as to eliminate the GC shank, but would probably try it as is first. I love the idea of the .25 Squirrel, but that would cost me more lead, and maybe a tiny pinch more powder, while bringing me little if anything in the final results, so .... I'm thinking I'll stick with either the Squirrel or the 5.7 short-stoked for now.

These things are always in a state of constant flux until the cutting of steel and wood begins, and even then can suffer some mid-stream shifts in plans, due to unforseen developments or simple willful decisions. I'm wanting this to be a neat, light, short and cheap to shoot and reload rifle for cast bullets that'll duplicate .22 pellets to .22 WMR performance. Beyond that, I have other rifles that'll fill the bill. Even thinking of nicknaming it "Baby!" How's THAT for a plan? HAR! Might have a friend engrave it on the barrel. Been thinking of nicknaming my 1895 Marlin .45/70 "Snuffy" and my Marlin .44 carbine "Tuffy." I think the grandsons would like that, (chuckle). My .35 Whelen Ackley might become "Moose," the '03 sporter "Doughboy" (so maybe they'd appreciate the old soldiers more?), and "Sting" for the 10/22? It's amazing how we get so into the trivialities when we really like our rifles, isn't it? And I've never been one to get too emotionally attached to many things, but vehicles and rifles that serve me well over time surely do become appreciated and admired.

Thanks to all who've aided in conceptualizing what I really want this little gun to be. I've been diddling with the idea for a long time now, and you guys have helped me come to some rational decisions, I think. Thanks.