.38 S&W level loads for modern J frame

[FergusonTO35]

Hey folks. I notice we are having lots of fun with the ancient .38 S&W cartridge and I've decided to join in, sort of. I have an S&W 637 .38 Special revolver and a Lee C358-158-SWC mold modified by Buckshot to drop a plain base 146 grain SWC. I would like to create a .38 S&W level load in .38 Special brass for this revolver: consistent 675-700 fps with good accuracy. I have 700X, Bullseye, HP-38, and Titegroup in stock. Any suggested loads out there?

[Outpost75]

Charges listed for a 148-grain HBWC bullet in .38 Special should be real close. About 2.5-2.7 grains of Bullseye.

[dubber123]

Charges listed for a 148-grain HBWC bullet in .38 Special should be real close. About 2.5-2.7 grains of Bullseye.

Outpost beat me to it. They will also be about the most frugal loads you could shoot. Have fun.

[FergusonTO35]

Sounds like a plan. The 146 grain SWC from my modified mold goes farther into the case and has a shorter ogive than most others, I bet it would work great in actual .38 S&W cartridges too. I found a post on another forum of some .38 S&W gel testing with factory ammo and reloads. The real champ was a 150 grain SWC at 670 fps which penetrated straight through the 10" gelatin block and exited. It actually outperformed the 200 grain round nose which tended to curve downward and did not exit. One of my slugs at 685 fps, which is published velocity for Remington and Winchester factory loads, should have similar performance.

[FergusonTO35]

Tried out 3.0 grains Bullseye this evening and it was a real winner. Mild recoil and good accuracy. One problem with these little revolvers is that the gun can shift in your hand under recoil quite a bit, which makes follow up shots slower and is just uncomfortable in general. 3.0 grains with my 146 grain slugs is pretty easy to control. Hopefully it will have some good numbers over the chronograph too.

I also tried 3.5 grains HP-38 under a 150 grain SWC in my S&W 10-10. Wow, more accurate than my usual 3.4 grains Bullseye and cleaner shooting. Gonna have to try some more of those.

[bedbugbilly]

FergusonTO35 -

This is a little off from what you are trying but . .

According to Wikipedia - a 38 S & W case has an overall length of .775
A 38 Colt Long casing has an overall length of 1.03 (longer than the S & W) but the 38 Colt Short casing has an overall length of .765.

A 38 Colt Short casing is .010 shorter than the 38 S & W and of course it is slightly smaller in diameter so there is less case volume.

At any rate - I load a lot of 38 Colt Short & Long. The 38 Colt Short I load with the 121 gr. Lyman/Ideal 358-242 RN over 2.0 gr. of Red Dot or 1.8 gr of B.E. and I shoot them often out of my S & W Model 36 - 3" and snub J frames. I do not have a chronograph but they seem to shoot well for general plinking/target out of both J frames. I have not tried a heavier boolit with the 38 Colt Short. In looking for loading data for the 38 Colt Short - I basically used the loading data for the 38 S & W as listed in my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook - 3rd edition and then reduced it for the slightly smaller casing - working up my load until I found what worked best in my individual J frames. It makes a nice round that gives no indication of pressure issues and they shoot well for me. Plus it gives me a nice plinking round which consumes less powder - for those that are "thrifty". LOL

I know you are talking about using 38 special brass with your boolit and adjusting the powder charge to get the desired results - and with the 38 special brass you would have your boolit closer to the forcing cone. I just thought I'd share what I have done with the 38 Colt Short since it is very similar to the 38 S & W cartridge. I use the Lee 38 Colt Short/Long die set and since I seat and crimp in two operations, I just use a 9mm taper crimp on the boolit I'm using.

If you ever decided to play with the 38 Colt Shorts - Track of the Wolf has smaller quantities of the StarLine brass that you can buy rather than having to buy a minimum of 500 from StarLine.

[rintinglen]

You are walking the same steps I took a while back in developing loads for my daughter to practice with. She has a HB 3 inch Model 36 square butt that she shoots pretty well.
I have a MP 359-640 which casts about 145 grains with my alloy. 3.4 grains of WW-231 made for a light recoiling reasonably accurate load that shot pretty close to point of aim.

[Bigslug]

Before I got my Webley I did some brief .38 Special experiments with the 195 grain Lyman 358430 along those lines. From a 2" J-frame:

3.2 grains Unique - 570 fps
3.6 grains Unique - 635 fps

I had an entire progression loaded up at the time, but since the object of the experiment was to see how they'd penetrate in FBI gelatin, both of those punched clean through the 18" block, and time was short, we ceased activities with those two.

[quail4jake]

I think someone has already delineated that the .38 S&W is not a short .38 Special but, in fact, stands as a unique cartridge with no longer or upgraded counterpart. Already pointed out is its unique larger bore / groove diameter requiring the .360 - .361 diameter boolit. Historic ballistics for the American loading of this "powerhouse" (LOL) is a 145 gr LRN with a single lube groove and no crimp groove @ 650 - 750 fps. I copy that authentic load using a Missouri bullet co. 145 gr LRN @ 12 Bn. and seat to an OAL that easily clears the cylinder gap using 2.5 gr of Trail Boss @ 680 - 720 fps for S&W Perfected DA or New Departure or 2.0 gr @580 - 620 fps for older single actions. Both loads, fired in a tight and straight S&W, group as well as my K38 target model @ 25 yds. The Trail Boss load is my own trial and not from published data nor has it been pressure tested; this is just a statement of what I've done and I don't recommend that anyone try it.
So the point of all this is to say that the .38 Spl. 148 gr wadcutter loaded to 650 - 750 fps, as it frequently is, really approximates a .38 S&W load and brings the driving bands of the boolit up to the forcing cone where it belongs. I would recommend using that load and avoid shorter cases in your .38 Spl.
I have this crazy dream of a Marlin '94 rebarrelled 26" chambered in .38 short colt with a full length mag. Now that's a plinkin' machine that holds a whole lotta boolits!

[ironhead7544]

Pachmayr Diamond grips work great on the J frames.

[FergusonTO35]

Pachmayr Diamond grips work great on the J frames.

I use the Pachmayr Compac Pro grips on my 637. My chronograph parts showed up in the mail this morning, hopefully I can do some testing soon.

[FergusonTO35]

Pachmayr Diamond grips work great on the J frames.

I use the Pachmayr Compac Pro grips on my 637. My chronograph parts showed up in the mail this morning, hopefully I can do some testing soon.

[FergusonTO35]

Turns out 3 grains Bullseye duplicates the .38 S&W perfectly, right down to the sleepy performance in the short barrel. This charge plus a Federal primer and 146 or 150 grains SWC produces 626.5 fps with excellent accuracy and is very fun to shoot. This would be a great close range load for small game or varmints or a better than nothing self defense load for someone who truly can't handle much recoil.

[Outpost75]

I take it this is from a 2" barrel? Good info to know on the 3 grains of Bullseye as a benchmark.

[quail4jake]

If you're firing through a 2" barrel the general wisdom is heavier boolit and faster powder. You're already there on fast powder and close on boolit weight, 3gr Bullseye and any 146 - 158 range boolit is very common and works well. I seem to recall this being termed a "mid range wadcutter" load.

[FergusonTO35]

According to S&W it's an 1-7/8". Here are the actual chrono numbers, distance from muzzle to first screen about 5 feet:

3.0 grains Bullseye, .357 146 grain SWC
F-C primer no. 5HM111, Temp. 75F
Low: 585.9
High: 653.1
Average: 626.5
Ex. Spread: 67.25
St. Deviation: 25.47
Energy: 127.23

I chrono'd 3.2 grains with a 150 awhile back. This is what I keep the 637 loaded with and duplicates the published numbers for the .38 S&W:

3.2 grains Bullseye, .357 150 grain SWC
F-C primer no. 5HM111, Temp. 45F
Low: 659.0
High: 703.9
Average: 685.3
Ex. Spread: 44.85
St. Deviation: 18.3
Energy: 150.79

[Outpost75]

Thanks for the update!

As FYI here are chronograph numbers for .38 S&W ammo fired out of my 1930 date of manufacture Colt Police Positive with 4" barrel, same model of gun which Jimmy Cagney wields in the 1930 gangster flick Public Enemy, just to put things into historical comparison. The Colt is tight, .354 groove diameter, .359 cylinder throats, 0.004" cylinder gap; compared with a Ruger RDA-84G India Model .380-200, similarly dimensioned, having been rechambered to .380-200 from a French Model 9mm, so it also has .354" groove diameter, .359 cylinder throats and 0.004" cylinder gap...

Yes, Ruger looked at the Colts when making these!

---------------------------------Colt 4"------------------Ruger 4"

Fiocchi 146-grain LRN---------794, 14 Sd-------------800, 20 Sd

Accurate 36-155D, 2.5 BE---- 720, 6 Sd--------------758, 6 Sd

Accurate 35-122T, 2.7 BE-----803, 10 Sd-------------834, 7 Sd

Old Western 146-gr. LRN -----701, 13 Sd-------------727, 5 Sd

Current W-W 146-gr. LRN----593, 36 Sd-------------662, 29 Sd

166987

[FergusonTO35]

Cool. Looks like 3.0 grains Bullseye matches current .38 S&W factory ammo nicely. If some .38 S&W cases find their way to me I'll squeeze 'em down with my .38 Special sizer to try in my 637 and 10's.

[FergusonTO35]

I just ordered a Lee 358-148-WC mold as it seems that this boolit causes the .38 Special to duplicate the .38 S&W as close as possible, right down to the thrifty powder charges. It seems the extra space in the shell causes problem with inconsistent velocity when using light loads. Last night I chronographed 3.2 grains Bullseye again and this time it pretty much duplicated the earlier load with 3.0 grains Bullseye. Same boolits, same primers, same bottle of powder. Only difference was the outside temperature was 75 degrees F instead of 46. If my revolver likes the wadcutter and it produces consistent velocity and accuracy then that is what I will feed it from now on.

[FergusonTO35]

I've been practicing double action with the 637, using Jerry Miculek's technique shown in the link below. The idea is to separate the double action pull into two stages. You place your finger far enough into the trigger so that the finger tip rubs the rear of the trigger guard when the cylinder is fully indexed and the hammer is close to being released. The goal is to get the cylinder indexed quickly and hammer ready to drop, focus on the front sight, then pull the trigger the rest of the way to fire. This is not the same as the way people usually stage the double action trigger for a precise shot but a speed shooting technique which helps to keep the sights and your grip steady as the hammer is released. It really works. At 10 feet, a distance where you would expect to be shooting double action, the 637 was making the proverbial ragged hole.


http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK4/miculek4.html

[FergusonTO35]

After work today I tried out 3.2 grains Titegroup with the 146 grain SWC. Wow, very accurate load and easy shooting too. The overcast skies prevented me from getting any chrono data but I'm going to load more of them.

Also, the Lee 358-148-WC mold showed up and I poured some slugs with it. Good looking boolits but this mold seems more sensitive to temperature than others. A little too cool and the shoulders get rounded off. I expect it will settle in with some Leementing and time to break in.

[FergusonTO35]

Chrono'd the 3.2 grains Titegroup yesterday. The numbers were not as good as I like but an accurate and easy shooting load nonetheless.

3.2 grains Titegroup, .357 146 grain SWC
W-W primer no. HBL403G, Temp. 55 F
Low: 601.9
High: 672.7
Average: 642.4
Ex. Spread: 70.83
St. Deviation: 20.76

Loaded up some of the 148 grain wadcutters last night with 2.7 and 3.0 grains Bullseye. Hope to try them out as soon as we get some sun for the chronograph to work and the range is not so swampy. I'm also going to try .357 vs. .358 sizing to see if that makes a difference in accuracy and chrono numbers.

[Bill*B]

My personal load (http://wa4cyp.com/special.htm) for the J-frame was concocted with a nod to the old .38 S&W, in its British military loading. These tiny revolvers are tough little things - Elmer Keith once commented "your hand will give up long before the gun does".

[FergusonTO35]

Wow, 195 grain slugs in a 37. My 637 already shoots high with 150's, I think it would be way up there with those.

Tried out the 148 grain wadcutters today. Very accurate slugs, the extra jump to the rifling doesn't seem to bother them. Here's some chrono data:

2.8 grains Bullseye, .357 Lee 358-148-WC, Federal primer
Low: 646.1
High: 698.6
Average: 666.3
Ex. Spread: 52.50
St. Deviation: 15.68

3.0 grains Bullseye, .357 Lee 358-148-WC, W-W primer
Low: 671.7
High: 721.3
Average: 692.7
Ex. Spread: 49.6
St. Deviation: 15.87

[swmass]

I love shooting my LCR and 442 with the old 2.7grain bullseye 148gn wad cutters. I switched to 105 grain semi wad cutters to save on lead and they're easy on the hands as well.

[FergusonTO35]

I'm going to try the same loads with boolits sized to .358 to see if that reduces the extreme spread. No, it won't make them shoot better but it's just so satifying to have a whole string of shots within 10 fps of each other.

[Thomas Traddles]

Bill*B, have you run those loads over a chrony? What type of muzzle velocity do you think you are getting?


My personal load (http://wa4cyp.com/special.htm) for the J-frame was concocted with a nod to the old .38 S&W, in its British military loading. These tiny revolvers are tough little things - Elmer Keith once commented "your hand will give up long before the gun does".

[quail4jake]

I can about guarontee that .358 boolits will bring greater consistency.

[FergusonTO35]

Glad to hear it. I've gotten to where I pursue a minimum velocity spread like bullseye shooters chase tiny groups!

[FergusonTO35]

.358 did the job, the same 2.8 grains Bullseye produced a consistent 661 fps and cut the extreme spread nearly in half. You can read the chrono numbers in my thread on .357 vs. .358. Accuracy was noticeably better too.

This is going to be my carry load for the 637. It is accurate and super easy to shoot with minimal recoil and muzzle jump; just like the .38 S&W. According to the Pocket Guns and Gear website this load is nearly identical to the Federal Gold Medal factory load. The author found that, when fired from a snubnose, the sedate full wadcutter actually outpenetrates the venerable FBI load and the $1.25 a shot Speer Gold Dot short barrel load. I think that the sharp shoulder and wide meplat of the wadcutter would produce a respectable wound channel, certainly better than that of a hollowpoint that fails to open. Here is the gelatin test of the Federal wadcutter fired from a Ruger LCR:
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/01/federal-gold-medal-match-38-special.html

[Bill*B]

Thomas Traddles, I finally got around to setting up the chronograph. 585 fps at about 10 feet.