Under Construction Martini

[BigEyeBob]

Good friend of mine is having this Martini cadet built ,its chambered in 300Sherwood has Reknagle express sights fitted , not sure what the front sight is.
All markings are being removed from the action. My friend has requested that the smith put his name on the rifle
At this stage the stock work needs to be brought down to fit the metal work and the checkering needs to be done.
The smith is Bob De Vries of Kudu Services here in Australia .
I'm a little envious ,no, actually I'm spitting poison I'm that jealous of his project '

[gewehrfreund]

Beautiful rifle! Even in its unfinished state. That fellow knows his stuff.
And your friend has very good taste too!

[leftiye]

Nice, I suspect I'll not go to that much effort on mine. The previous Martini I had had the straight stock, and I got along fine with it. I'll be wanting a lot more cheekpiece too. I've been looking at exotic woods lately (for knife handles), and pieces of some wild stuff do come along in large enough chunks for a martini stock. Brazilian rosewood?

[tim338]

Very elegant rifle.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It is a beautiful rifle, and entirely in keeping with what early 20th century sporting rifles would have been like. I much prefer that to some of the space-age creations produced when Cadets were cheap in the US. The way the lever has been treated is especially good, although I might have preferred to combine it with a dished pistol grip cap.

[Earlwb]

Yes I agree, that rifle is looking really nice. I am partial to the early 20th century sporting rifle look too. I don't particularly care much for the modern tactical military style look people are using today.

[marlinman93]

Very high end build! I really love the lines!

[GOPHER SLAYER]

That is a beautiful rifle. I do not know what the 300 Sherwood is however. I have a very nice Martini Cadet that was rechambered to 32-20, otherwise it is original. I doubt that I will ever do anything with it since I have more rifles than I can find time to shoot now.

[JeffinNZ]

Awesome. Love to see people keeping old cartridges alive.

[Von Gruff]

It is really easy on the eye and will be a source of pride when done. Where did he get the barrel sling eye?? it is a marked improvement on a band and even better than the general soldered on eye. I would really like to get onto a couple of them if they are a commercial unit.

[leadman]

He is going to let you at least shoot it once, right?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That is a beautiful rifle. I do not what the 300 Sherwood is however. I have a very nice Martini Cadet that was rechambered to 32-20, otherwise it is original. I doubt that I will ever do anything with it since I have more rifles than I can find time to shoot now.

The .300 Sherwood is a problem, as regards getting good brass and bullets today, but a most excellent Cadet cartridge when you have got it up and running. Here are a couple of useful article, although in the first, as with the .25-20 and .32-20 at the time, some profess an excessive belief in its use for large game.

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/MINIATURE_RIFLES.htm

http://www.300sherwood.net/reloading.html

It works well with a heavier bullet than the Cadet, and although black powder was sometimes used, it differs from most rook rifle cartridges in having been designed when it was known that smokeless would be used. It isn't really a rook rifle cartridge. You wouldn't want people shooting it almost straight upwards into trees anywhere near you.

[Bigslug]

I believe the proper word here is "DAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN!" :awesome:

[DiamondD]

Very nice rifle.

[rollmyown]

Nice to know we have talent like that in Australia. I'll be making enquiries.

[BigEyeBob]

It is really easy on the eye and will be a source of pride when done. Where did he get the barrel sling eye?? it is a marked improvement on a band and even better than the general soldered on eye. I would really like to get onto a couple of them if they are a commercial unit.


Not sure where the sling eye was obtained , Bob may have made it himself ,he is a very accomplished smith and I have seen other examples of his work , particularly big game rifles on Mauser actions in the English style of the day .
I can get his contact details and pass them on if you would like.

I have a Francotte actioned Martini in 300 Sherwood and have been struggling developing loads for it , the info BIS has provided will get me back into playing with it again. Problem with my rifle is that the bore slugs out to 312 , I have done3 a chamber cast and the chamber is the correct dimensions of the Sherwood case apart from the throat . I"m totally confused as the bore across the grooves should measure 296 -300 "
I have been playing with lee molds in 312" 155gn and was planning to modify the mould to get it to throw 140gn bullets .
I may bite the bullet and send the rifle to Bob and get him to reline it to .300" to make things simpler.
The cases I have I got from the US and I bought the 25-20 long single shot cases that Captec have . It was frustrating exercise getting the cases due to Customs and Police intervention , but still worked out cheaper than buying from Bertram here in Oz.

I got my dies from Ch4D , but had to machine a new expander plug to expand the case to take the larger diameter bullet ,it worked out ok and the cases probably wont need to be resized , fully at least to be reloaded.

Basically my knowledge of this cartridge is limited as there is not a lot of info on the web . It has similar ballistics to the 357Mag (140Gn projectile @1400fps ), was developed by Westley Richards and came out around 1901 . Was used as a target cartridge and was a competitor of the 310 Greener and 300 Rook .
Now thanks to BIS , I can get back into playing with the cartridge

[BigEyeBob]

He is going to let you at least shoot it once, right?

I would hope so , but I live at the opposite end of Australia to him .
I do plan on visiting some time in July ,hopefully the rifle will be completed by then.

[Von Gruff]

Not sure where the sling eye was obtained , Bob may have made it himself ,he is a very accomplished smith and I have seen other examples of his work , particularly big game rifles on Mauser actions in the English style of the day .
I can get his contact details and pass them on if you would like.

I have a Francotte actioned Martini in 300 Sherwood and have been struggling developing loads for it , the info BIS has provided will get me back into playing with it again. Problem with my rifle is that the bore slugs out to 312 , I have done3 a chamber cast and the chamber is the correct dimensions of the Sherwood case apart from the throat . I"m totally confused as the bore across the grooves should measure 296 -300 "
I have been playing with lee molds in 312" 155gn and was planning to modify the mould to get it to throw 140gn bullets .
I may bite the bullet and send the rifle to Bob and get him to reline it to .300" to make things simpler.
The cases I have I got from the US and I bought the 25-20 long single shot cases that Captec have . It was frustrating exercise getting the cases due to Customs and Police intervention , but still worked out cheaper than buying from Bertram here in Oz.

I got my dies from Ch4D , but had to machine a new expander plug to expand the case to take the larger diameter bullet ,it worked out ok and the cases probably wont need to be resized , fully at least to be reloaded.

Basically my knowledge of this cartridge is limited as there is not a lot of info on the web . It has similar ballistics to the 357Mag (140Gn projectile @1400fps ), was developed by Westley Richards and came out around 1901 . Was used as a target cartridge and was a competitor of the 310 Greener and 300 Rook .
Now thanks to BIS , I can get back into playing with the cartridge

I have a friend in the old country who has been getting his 300 Sherwood past the teething problems with brass and bullet dia and I am sure he would be up for a yarn over how he is getting past the difficulties. PM inbound with details. I will let him know to expect you email.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Not sure where the sling eye was obtained , Bob may have made it himself ,he is a very accomplished smith and I have seen other examples of his work , particularly big game rifles on Mauser actions in the English style of the day .
I can get his contact details and pass them on if you would like.

I have a Francotte actioned Martini in 300 Sherwood and have been struggling developing loads for it , the info BIS has provided will get me back into playing with it again. Problem with my rifle is that the bore slugs out to 312 , I have done3 a chamber cast and the chamber is the correct dimensions of the Sherwood case apart from the throat . I"m totally confused as the bore across the grooves should measure 296 -300 "
I have been playing with lee molds in 312" 155gn and was planning to modify the mould to get it to throw 140gn bullets .
I may bite the bullet and send the rifle to Bob and get him to reline it to .300" to make things simpler.
The cases I have I got from the US and I bought the 25-20 long single shot cases that Captec have . It was frustrating exercise getting the cases due to Customs and Police intervention , but still worked out cheaper than buying from Bertram here in Oz.

I got my dies from Ch4D , but had to machine a new expander plug to expand the case to take the larger diameter bullet ,it worked out ok and the cases probably wont need to be resized , fully at least to be reloaded.

Basically my knowledge of this cartridge is limited as there is not a lot of info on the web . It has similar ballistics to the 357Mag (140Gn projectile @1400fps ), was developed by Westley Richards and came out around 1901 . Was used as a target cartridge and was a competitor of the 310 Greener and 300 Rook .
Now thanks to BIS , I can get back into playing with the cartridge

Is your Francotte actually marked ".300 Sherwood"? I am sure some uncommon continental European cartridges have become lost to our records, and it is possible that they had a heel bullet cartridge very similar to the Sherwood.

A .300 groove liner would be difficult to find ready made, and would probably involve paying for a slice of some seldom reusable tooling if Bob makes his own. It sounds from your post as if the rifle will chamber your cartridges loaded with .312 bullets, and if so I would probably be content to use them. I would say relining or reboring to something different would make the rifle no less original than relining it as a Sherwood.

It is probably a far rarer chambering than either the .310 Greener or the heel-bullet rook cartridges, as there wasn't really any very demanding niche for it on the British wildlife scene. Everything was either a bit big or a bit small, and target shooting was mostly service rifle, match rifle at long ranges, or miniature rifle indoors. But it is a good rifle, and about the most powerful put in the Cadet when it was the state of the art light single-shot.

[BigEyeBob]

Yes it's marked 300 Sherwood ,has an octagonal barrel ,two leaf express sights and in the sporting style with the splinter fore end checkered and straight hand stock with checkering.
It has no makers name and I suspect is Belgian made , probably a cheap rifle in in its day , .
Getting a liner may be a problem ,I would entertain the idea of just buying a barrel in 300 bore and turning it into a liner.
Not sure where Bob got the barrel for the Sherwood he is building for my mate.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have a friend in the old country who has been getting his 300 Sherwood past the teething problems with brass and bullet dia and I am sure he would be up for a yarn over how he is getting past the difficulties. PM inbound with details. I will let him know to expect you email.

I love hearing antipodeans talking about "the old country", though when the kids have grown up and made lives of their own, you feel more at ease if they eventually stop calling your place "home".

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If it is marked Francotte it will almost certainly be Belgian made. On mine the action frame is stamped "Francotte's patent" and "Francotte's stamped steel" (by which I suppose they mean forged), both in small circles. The cocking indicator is marked "Francotte's patent indicator". No markings are now visible on the sanded receiver sides, but the perron of Liège, the little candlestick-shaped object, is usually deep and stays visible.

Some firearms were badly made in Belgium, though rarely dangerously. I'm thinking of some bulldog revolvers, and the "Belgian bridge" Navy Colt copies. But Martinis were one of the things even lesser makers than Francotte usually did pretty well. So far as I know plain Francotte arms are of very sound quality, just the same as the finely finished ones. Many of the British Farquharsons, often looked at as a pinnacle of British gunmaking, were based on actions imported unfinished from Belgium.

Yes, an octagonal barrel is too good to waste the outside of. Even a .300 groove barrel is probably hard to get, and it might be that Bob is creating another oversize Sherwood, which should be perfectly functional. I believe I would thread the new barrel into the receiver, and taper it from the threads (18.5mm. approximately) to match a taper made in the old barrel with a large taper pin reamer. They are tapered at 1/4in. per foot, or 1 in 50 if metric. After the first few inches the old barrel would be cylindrically bored to suit the muzzle. So it would be more a new barrel with an old octagonal sleeve.

[Von Gruff]

I love hearing antipodeans talking about "the old country", though when the kids have grown up and made lives of their own, you feel more at ease if they eventually stop calling your place "home".

Hah, the old country has not been home since the 1850's or 60's (England, Scotland and Ireland) which is why it is the old country with New Zealand being the new country and home for 5 generations of us with never a one of us ever looking to leave here. :drinks:

[Driver man]

Hah, the old country has not been home since the 1850's or 60's (England, Scotland and Ireland) which is why it is the old country with New Zealand being the new country and home for 5 generations of us with never a one of us ever looking to leave here. :drinks:

YEP You got that right.

[iomskp]

Nice project in a good little cartridge, I have a double rifle in 300 Sherwood.

[BigEyeBob]

Nice project in a good little cartridge, I have a double rifle in 300 Sherwood.

I crave a double in 300 Sherwood , but I would settle for some pics.

Kev.

[BigEyeBob]

Mine has no markings on the action at all , I'm asuming its a Francotte because it has a tear drop cocking indicator on the right side of the action .Where as none of my BSA's have the external teardrop shaped cocking indicator.
My BSA 310 has a cocking indicator that protrudes at the right side of the breech block between it and the side wall of the action. My 222R BSA has no cocking indicator at all , was removed by the smith who built it . I would prefer it had one .
It maybe a copy of a Francotte.
I have never removed the fore end , there could be markings under it.

[iomskp]

I shall have to dig out some pics, the double is at the gunsmiths being regulated.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Mine has no markings on the action at all , I'm asuming its a Francotte because it has a tear drop cocking indicator on the right side of the action .Where as none of my BSA's have the external teardrop shaped cocking indicator.
My BSA 310 has a cocking indicator that protrudes at the right side of the breech block between it and the side wall of the action. My 222R BSA has no cocking indicator at all , was removed by the smith who built it . I would prefer it had one .
It maybe a copy of a Francotte.
I have never removed the fore end , there could be markings under it.

Auguste Francotte invented the Cadet Martini as we know it, and I think his .297/.230 rifles for young school-age members of the cadet force preceded the .310s. (I can remember the school cadet force in the UK, although it was the skinhead age, and boot issues outnumbered lasting memberships.) So the Greeners and BSAs were the copies. None of these normally had the external cocking lever on the sear axis, although I don't see why one couldn't have been fitted in conjunction with the removable action, and I dare say it was sometimes.

On another current or nearly-current thread on the Cadets, there is one with an action which has always puzzled me. I know of it as a full-size one with straight-through sear, extractor and breechblock pins, very much resembling the action Greener used for their police and GP shotguns. I don't know whether they have a larger than 1in. thread, which Greener had to use for the 12ga cartridge. But in that thread, there is a beautiful .17 Ackley Bee rifle, built on a similar action but very close to the size of the adjacent Cadets.

Now in this very useful auction site, which has supplied me with several firearms, I find a very similar action, described as an Australian cadet training rifle for the .450 No1 Carbine cartridge. It seems to me that that couldn't have fitted a Cadet-sized action, though. Incidentally I would be glad to know if anyone sees the pictures, as they tantalizingly appeared for me at first, but now don't.

http://www.australianarmsauctions.com/cat_online_1.html

In theory I suppose the slot for "Francotte's Patent Indicator" weakens the breechblock of the Cadet action, but I have never heard of anyone running into trouble that way. I've never felt any great need for a cocking indicator in a Martini, at least the block traps the rear of the cartridge. In that case I would carry it with the lever open and my fingers under it. It's good enough for double shotguns. If you need a safety, the indicator slot and/or its hole in the sear might be used to provide one.

[BigEyeBob]

I'm eyeing of the Martini Henry actioned Tisdal sporter in 450 cal (Item 36 ) in that auction but I think would bid would arrive late and be omitted.
Also item 626 , a Martini actioned sporter in 297/230 is very desirable.

I removed the fore end from my rifle last night , there is some markings under it on the barrel ,nothing too clear though and Ill have to investigate further with a much more powerful light and eyeglass .
I did see on the left side of the barrel right at the junction where it is screwed into the action is a # 32 , in about 1mm sized stamp numerals.
There are proof marks there also ,one has a crown on top but I cant make out the rest of it ,will look when I get a better eyeglass. I do have a book with proof marks from English and Continental makers hope fully it may shed some light on where the rifle was made ,although I believe firearms imported to the UK where reproofed there.
32 may designate that the barrel has been re bored to 32 cal ,maybe that would explain the 312 "sized groove diameter.
But the top barrel flat still exhibits the large 300Sherwood marking.

The action can be dis assembled by removing a screw using a turnscrew at the point where the BSA's have a knock out pin .
When this screw is removed the breech block can be swung down and the extractor drops out , where as on the BSA the pin that the extractor pivots on is in the breech block only and does not protrude through the action sides.
The top pin and the cocking indicator pins are locked in by a screw with a semi circle cut into the them , these screws need to be rotated so the cut out lines up with the pin and then the pin can be removed. I removed the cocking indicator and its pivot pin is integral with the tear drop , the pin goes right through the action to the left side where it locked with the cut out screw .The cocking indicator has round pins each end and square section in the center which obviously is used to move the indicator when cocking and firing .I need to investigate this rifle more but have other projects I need to finish first .
I should take some pictures and post them.

Replacing the cocked indicator on the 222R would be just a matter of getting the BSA Cadet parts and fitting them .

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think we have a potential confusion of terminology here. I'd use the term breechblock for the part that hinges down when you open the action to load. I think you are using it for an internal action frame which holds all the moving parts? The ordinary Francotte and BSA or Greener actions are about identical, and perhaps even interchangeable in individual rifles. The three pins on which the sear and lever, the extractor and the true breechblock rotate are all without thread, locking screw or bifurcated spring lock-up, and are hidden when the rifle is assembled. Here is a picture of a Francotte action with one of my projects for the future, a slot I had made by wire electrochemical machining, and will someday get around to making my own receiver from. ]

167130

In the military action the cocking indicator cum sear and lever pivot has the locking cutout and screw you describe, but the breechblock pivot is bifurcated so that it can be driven out with a punch. Generations have mistaken this for a screw slot. It would be unusual for both of these to extend all the way through an action with an internal frame, but I don't see why it couldn't be done.

[BigEyeBob]

All three pins on my rifle penetrate the frame ,the breech block pivot and the cocking indicator are locked to the frame with screws .
the extractor is hinged on the pin that is removed to drop the breech block out of the frame .This pin has a screw slot in it on the right side ,unlike the BSA Cadet it can be unscrewed and removed .When it is removed and the breech block is lowered down the extractor drops out.
I think pics are in order to explain how my rifle is put together.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I believe BSA always used the Francotte-style internal frame, although they soon went over to an action retaining screw, threaded on the same side as its knurled head, which you describe. It did nothing but hold the action, though, the extractor having its own pivot pin. The Vickers has a vertical action retaining screw, which I like. But it is also the bedding screw for the full length wood stock, which I don't. You want to clean your rifle more often than you want to disturn the bedding.

This website, with its menus at the top, should be interesting. It shows various small Martinis, particularly by Greener and Westley Richards, which used pins all the way from one side to the other.

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Westley_Richards_miniature_rifles.htm (http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Westley_Richards_miniature_rifles.htm)

The Westley Richards section mentions their .298 Minex which was intended as a replacement for the Sherwood, but never actually displaced it. This is a classic example of a cartridge on which accounts vary, and you can't totally trust published sources on dimensions - if you can find any. None of my books describe it in detail. It may actually have been the .32-20, which may have been a relief to many modern builders. It may have been around .05in. longer (unlikely to matter with its level of performance), and it may have used a bullet of .300 diameter, or a larger one matching the .32-20's .312in., or even a .308 grooved barrel or liner. I think it is pretty well certain, though, that .32-so brass could be used.

So if anyone else comes across a small Westley Richards which someone assumes must be a Sherwood, should check the chamber dimensions carefully.

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/reply/76789/New-WW-Greener-Rook-question#.VyHKqZr2amQ (http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/reply/76789/New-WW-Greener-Rook-question#.VyHKqZr2amQ)

Incidentally I wouldn't stock anything but a pistol with rosewood. You are very unlikely to get a severe reaction to the dust as I do. It appears to be an allergy rather than a wood which irritates everybody, and lets me recognize any of the Dalbergia species, even if they don't look it. But rosewood is liable to shrink after carving. I once had an old Indian Forests Department wood sample of Andaman padauk, which was an excellent substitute in every way. But I have never seen its like again. African padauk isn't bad, being a slightly orange colour which mellows to chocolate with exposure to air. It splits more easily than walnut, but that is splitting through careless use of chisels, not splitting in use.

I once strayed into a long struggle through shoulder-high bracken fern in pouring rain, through wanting to use the last minutes of daylight in the hope of a deer. The rifle and I could have welcomed going diving to get out of the wet. But after dismantling to dry and leaving that way for several weeks, the point of impact hadn't changed.

[BigEyeBob]

Ok weekend is almost over for me , I have taken some pics of the rifle stripped down .Distinctly different to a BSA or Francotte in its assembly.
The trigger group is held in with the take down screw and cocking indicator shaft the extractor pivots on the take down screw.
The breech block is held in by the top rear pin firing pin and spring is behind a bush screwed screwed into the face of the breech block .
You can see the lock screws on the cocking indicator shaft in the frame and the one under the top rear pin., these have cutouts which need to be rotated to line up with the pin so it can be removed .The pins have slots to accommodate the lock screws.
The cocking indicator shaft takes the sear and also the lever .
I have also attached a PDF of the makers mark and the proof marks .
The makers mark looks strange , it looks decidedly Indian to me. I have no references that show it.

Hopefully some one may know the makers mark and where it was proofed.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, that is a nice rifle. It is very much like the British MkIV military Martini, the one intended for a very practical .402 round, but modified to .577/.450 before issue for colonial troops, when the .303 killed the .402 idea. It has a short lever like the earlier Martinis, but the Francotte wouldn't need the extra leverage. Is it actually small, with an 18.5mm or 3/4in. wide breechblock, rather than the 1in. of the military rifles?

Those are Belgian proofmarks, and I think AF is Auguste Francotte, although I have seen it with one vertical line forming both the F and the right-hand side of the A. The L with asterisk is an inspection mark, specific to an inspector, not a year. It may be Antoine Salmon, who served from 1937 to 1968. The X is interesting, for it could be the year letter for 1945, when we might expect the makers to be recovering from forced production for the Germans, and I doubt if the Sherwood was the most likely candidate for going back into production. It may have lain in store through the occupation.

Against this, a post-1891 ELG and a star in a crowned oval is missing, and a crowned R for "rayé" which from 1924 should have been applied to all rifled firearms. But anomalies of this kind are always possible, especially in stressful times.

I don't know a thing about that white marking, which might be silver inlaid or perhaps you have accentuated it with white powder. It could be personal, for an owner, or applied for or by an importer. The Belgians both applied markings on request and did silver inlays in metal, such as the "Bayard" trademark and some lettering on my double 24ga. I think I got it in about as near mint condition as you ever will a 1920s hammer gun because the silver "24" tarnished almost black, and an Australian got it home before he found that 20ga cartridges wouldn't fit.

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

[BigEyeBob]

The makers mark I filled with white chalk to highlight it . Its is on the under side of the barrel hidden by the fore end when fitted.
Yes it is a small action same size as a BSA cadet action.
Thanks for the information on the proof marks , I could find nothing in my publications .
One pic I didn't post because it was a bit blurry , is that it has a metal catch in the stock where the lever locks in quite tightly when closed .
The rifle has seen some use , a couple of chips in the wood , but the checkering is pretty good ,bore is excellent .
So Im going to shoot it using the 312" cast bullets from the Lee 155grn mould , I also have another 312"Lee mould but cant recall the weight of bullet it throws.
I was thinking of starting with 38 special loads using Red Dot ( I have plenty) , I use Red Dot in my 310 (4.3gns) and it shoots accurately .

[BigEyeBob]

Another pic of the in construction Martini . The gunsmith fashioned a new take down screw . Tastefully done no less
167503


The action flats are a perfect palette for some tasteful engraving .

[blackbahart]

should be a pretty lil rifle when done .I have a soft spot for custom baby martini rifles

[leadman]

If you desire a lighter boolit the Lee 113gr and 120gr drop large enough from my molds to work just fine in your rifle. The 120gr is the more accurate of the 2 in my guns. Then there are the 32 handgun Boolits/bullets.
I do find that the Lyman 200gr 314299 is the most accurate boolit in my Contender carbine in 300 Whisper at around 1,100 fps.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The makers mark I filled with white chalk to highlight it . Its is on the under side of the barrel hidden by the fore end when fitted.
Yes it is a small action same size as a BSA cadet action.
Thanks for the information on the proof marks , I could find nothing in my publications .
One pic I didn't post because it was a bit blurry , is that it has a metal catch in the stock where the lever locks in quite tightly when closed .
The rifle has seen some use , a couple of chips in the wood , but the checkering is pretty good ,bore is excellent .
So Im going to shoot it using the 312" cast bullets from the Lee 155grn mould , I also have another 312"Lee mould but cant recall the weight of bullet it throws.
I was thinking of starting with 38 special loads using Red Dot ( I have plenty) , I use Red Dot in my 310 (4.3gns) and it shoots accurately .

Dohhh!!! That Australian arms auction I mentioned was on the 1st May, and although although a Cadet with a pitted bore sounded like an interesting prospect, I decided that I just didn't need another conversion or restoration project on the backlog. Most of the Cadets went for quite respectable prices, reasonable compared with what you might pay in other countries now, even when import costs are considered. But that one went for £160 Australian! Clearly the people who want them are shooters.

About that peculiar mark on your through-pin Martini, I can't see any reason to have a foreign script in a concealed position, and in Belgium the arms trade was a maze of pieceworkers, outworkers, small subcontractors and probably a few arrangements for which no name now exists. In Birmingham you could rent bench space in the factory of the firm which put its name on guns of its own, and divide your time as you pleased between making parts for them and doing work of your own. They all put marks on things, of which the identity is lost, for internal record keeping.

I wonder if that mark runs shallower down to zero depth at the ends where the strokes seem curtailed? It might be that it was in European script, HM with a sort of vertical dash in the middle, and got partly erased in the finishing of a bought-in barrel. You might find Martinis like it in this website, which is very detailed, although you wouldn't need to speak a lot of French to find it clearer than Alain's English version sometimes is:

http://www.littlegun.be/

[BigEyeBob]

Dohhh!!! That Australian arms auction I mentioned was on the 1st May, and although although a Cadet with a pitted bore sounded like an interesting prospect, I decided that I just didn't need another conversion or restoration project on the backlog. Most of the Cadets went for quite respectable prices, reasonable compared with what you might pay in other countries now, even when import costs are considered. But that one went for £160 Australian! Clearly the people who want them are shooters.



About that peculiar mark on your through-pin Martini, I can't see any reason to have a foreign script in a concealed position, and in Belgium the arms trade was a maze of pieceworkers, outworkers, small subcontractors and probably a few arrangements for which no name now exists. In Birmingham you could rent bench space in the factory of the firm which put its name on guns of its own, and divide your time as you pleased between making parts for them and doing work of your own. They all put marks on things, of which the identity is lost, for internal record keeping.

I wonder if that mark runs shallower down to zero depth at the ends where the strokes seem curtailed? It might be that it was in European script, HM with a sort of vertical dash in the middle, and got partly erased in the finishing of a bought-in barrel. You might find Martinis like it in this website, which is very detailed, although you wouldn't need to speak a lot of French to find it clearer than Alain's English version sometimes is:

http://www.littlegun.be/

Both the rifles I was interested in went for reasonable prices , the shock was the 297/230 Martini at $575 AUD I regret not bidding on both of them .The large frame Tisdal in 450 went for 1000AUD
The Westley Richards Howdah pistol went for more than I would pay .(5000AUD)

Ill check out that website , I did french in high school more years ago than I care to count though.

[Hooker53]

Out of sight. You have got to post some photos when he has it done. That's a new Cal. For me. Gonna have to run it down.

Roy
Hooker53

[barrabruce]

I like the lines of this gun.
The check piece is on the wrong side unfortunately so is only there for looks I suppose a good going over with my sanding disk in the hand drill ought to sort that out quick enough .
The forearm seems a little fat for me but it might be just right when I handle it.
After you finish dressing it up ...just send the whole lot to me and I'll work up a few loads for it and sight it in for you.

We can sort out the payment you owe me later on.
It may take a while to fully test it out and do some field testing as well.
I have a couple of moulds to test but if others are needed then there will be the extra cost.

Pssst!
P.M. me and I'll give you the address you can forward it to.
Don't malinger as this offer is only for the love of the smaller martinis and I have a back load of clients waiting for my services.

Cheers
Barra

[BigEyeBob]

I like the lines of this gun.
The check piece is on the wrong side unfortunately so is only there for looks I suppose a good going over with my sanding disk in the hand drill ought to sort that out quick enough .
The forearm seems a little fat for me but it might be just right when I handle it.


After you finish dressing it up ...just send the whole lot to me and I'll work up a few loads for it and sight it in for you.

We can sort out the payment you owe me later on.
It may take a while to fully test it out and do some field testing as well.
I have a couple of moulds to test but if others are needed then there will be the extra cost.

Pssst!
P.M. me and I'll give you the address you can forward it to.
Don't malinger as this offer is only for the love of the smaller martinis and I have a back load of clients waiting for my services.

Cheers
Barra

Unfortunately its not my rifle , but have been promised that I will be able to shoot it when I visit my mate in July .I am looking forward to getting my hands on it if only for a half hour or so.It has classic lines.

[BigEyeBob]

Out of sight. You have got to post some photos when he has it done. That's a new Cal. For me. Gonna have to run it down.

Roy
Hooker53


Roy
that cartridge is not available commercially , it was a developed by Westley Richards in the early 1900's to compete with the 310Greener. but now long gone like the Dodo bird.
Some rifles are still in existence , probably a lot hidden away in collections never to be seen or heard of again.
They can be resurrected with some work and knowing what case you can use to make it from , I used 25-20 Long Single Shot cases from Jamieson , just the basic straight case and shorten to the correct length and it's on the money . Moulds are available from cast Bullet Engineering and dies from CH4D.
Ballistics are similar to the 357Mag. 140g projectile at 1400fps .WR had few different loads for it and used a copper based bullet (Gas Check) .
It good to see the old cartridges being resurrected and back shooting again , just so enjoyable and fun to shoot.

[Hooker53]

Thanks Bigeye. That was a good rundown on that. I'm surprised more folks are not shooting this cal. Thanks again.

Roy
Hooker53

[BigEyeBob]

More pics167957167958

[Bigslug]

I think if I was going to engrave the name of the cartridge on the barrel of that thing, I'd have to go with ".300 Long Bore Kynoch", just to keep it in the same general family of snootiness as the ".275 Rigby".

I was just fireforming some more cases for Binky Roo yesterday.

167962

Since it's blown out and uses a custom .320" bullet in the original BSA barrel, I can't decide between calling it the ".32-20 Kinda-Sorta" or the ".32-20 Actual". I thought about ".32-20 Not-So-Winchester", but then figured there might be some confusion with the New South Wales contingent.

Then again, since the importer/modifier stamped it ".32-20" and most of the factory .32-20 ammo I've shot through it tumbles and hits the target sideways, perhaps I should just say the gun is chambered in ".32-20 MY @SS!!":lol: