Effect of Changing Patch Thickness on Where RB Hits: Smoothbore

[Maven]

166727Last Sunday I tried anemic charges of [Diamondback) FFg + 1 oz. #8 shot + the usual over shot, lubed felt cushioning, and OP wads in my GRF trade gun (cylinder bore) in an attempt to see whether I could hit a 3" circle at 25 yd. In short, I could, but the 60gr. FFg charges could manage no more than 7 hits in that 3" circle, but lots of hits everywhere else. (LOL)

As it had been some time since I fired the gun with RB's, I brought some cast from a Lyman mold along. Btw, they were cast from WW's and mic'd @ .604". For those I upped the charge to 80gr. and used a thin OP wad atop the powder charge, but varied the thickness of the patches: 5 shots with .014" pillow ticking; 5 shots with .018" ticking. The above pic clearly shows what happens when the patch thickness in a smoothbore is changed. The bright green hits are with the .014" patch (5 shots) on a 6" circle @ 25 yd. The other 5 were with the .018" patch at the same distance (3 touching!).

Btw, the .604" dia. RB isn't the trade gun's favorite. It prefers .597" - .600" dia. RB's with some sort of wad, either lubed felt, lubed corrugated cardboard, or plain card stock with either a .014" or .018" wet patch. The 1 H20 : 6 Ballistol patch lube pretty much eliminates any "crud ring" and leaves very little BP residue in the bore itself.

[Sharpsman]

I ain't never understood why anyone could or should expect precision accuracy out of a smoothbore which is basically designed for shooting shot! I've heard all the comments regarding the versatality of the smoothbore and each time I'm reminded of the comment from an old timer regarding 'versatality' of "something designed for everything...ain't worth a damn!"

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

smoothies can be very accurate in fact. I had an old african trade flintlock in 54cal and smoothie. .530" ball with .018 patching and 60-70gr 3fg goex and it would hold 3 1/2" groups at 75 yards.

During war time when they'd fire in large volleys, paper wadding was easier to use and a lot faster to reload with but accuracy wasn't that great.

[bedbugbilly]

Maven - interesting and thanks for posting.

I have a 20 ga. Fusil-de-Chasse flintlock and I have found that in my particular gun, patch thickness does matter. Ball size/patch thickness also matters. Mine likes .610 but still doesn't shoot too badly with .600 if patching material is changed for that diameter ball.

As far as a smoothbore being "accurate" - it's like any firearm. You have to learn how and where it shoots. No, it's not going to reach out there like a Sharps or a rifled musket will . . . but at reasonable ranges, there is not reason a person can't become proficient in shooting one . . . if he works at it. The smoothbore does give the opportunity to use ball or shot and those things depend on your location and what you are hunting. I have taken pheasant, squirrels and rabbits easily with shot out of my Fusil and have also deer tuned with it. I have not taken any deer but that is mainly because I know the limitations of the smoothbore and am not going to take a "long shot" and chance wounding instead of killing. At 50 yards, I would be very confident in taking a shot and where I'm from, often that is what you might get.

I'm just curious Sharpsman . . . have you ever tried shooting a smoothbore with patched ball? And I don't mean a couple of shots . . . I'm talking working at it and trying such things as Maven did in various ball sizes, patch thicknesses, powder charges, etc. to see just what a good smoothbore is capable of? If you studied your history a little, I think you'd find that many of the early smoothbores were designed and utilized for shooting ball or buck and ball - especially military smoothbore muskets. Our ancestors utilized smoothbores for both shot and ball depending upon the game they were hunting - contrary to popular belief - not all were armed with Pennsylvania/Kentucky or Hawken rifles. Thus also the popularity of the Northwest Trade Gun, Fusil de Chasse, etc.

In the end, everyone has their preferences . . . some like C & B pistol, some like rifled musket, some like Hawken style, some like long rifles and some like smoothbores . . . and there is nothing wrong with any of them. Personally, I like them all but there is nothing quite like taking the trade gun out for an afternoon of shooting. There's just something about a smoothbore and roundball that is just a lot of fun and the only one you are competing with is yourself to make the next shot a better one.

Maven - I had to chuckle when you told of your hits on the three foot circle as I can relate to that. In actual hunting with the Fusil, I have pulled up on pheasants and expected to see feathers fly and a bird drop only to watch it cackle as it flew away - other times, I have fired and sworn that I was off target only to see a bird cleanly drop. . . . so you never know!

I no longer hunt with mine but I do enjoy sending balls downrange once in a while. I have a Northwest Trade Gun in progress and really need to get back to it and get it finished up. It also is in 20 ga. (.620) but I'm debating on cutting the 42" barrel back to 36" on that one.

Enjoy! And for those folks who haven't given smoothbore RB shooting a try, if you get the opportunity to shoot one, do it. It's a great challenge and a lot of fun!

[Maven]

FM & bbb, Thanks for your words of support!

Sharpsman, Maybe you missed the point? To wit, it wasn't about SB accuracy, but how changing patch thickness affected target impact. As for SB accuracy, you may want to look at the NMLRA smoothbore match results as they tell an entirely different story.

[Sharpsman]

"I'm just curious Sharpsman . . . have you ever tried shooting a smoothbore with patched ball? And I don't mean a couple of shots"

I did all that 50 years ago and came to the conclusion that smoothbores were good for shooting quail, ducks, and deer with buckshot! Other than these and home defense....they're good for boat anchors...as long as you tie a cinder block to 'em!!


cleaned it up a bit for ya!.

keep it civil.

[JeffinNZ]

SHARPSMAN: You have a remarkably condescending tone and it is not welcome. I know I speak for others also. Maybe the results of your 50 year old tests are more a factor your abilities. I draw your attention to the results as follows from a friend of mine who builds world class flintlocks. This is a group at 30 yards from a smoothbore:

166803

[Buckshot Bill]

I'm no expert on smoothies but I have a T/C I had Ed Rayl bore to .620 smooth, haven't had the opportunity to stretch it past 30 yards but at that range it shoots as well as any of my rifled MLers. I have no problem shooting a hole in the target board, then placing the next shot through that hole, many times you can't tell there was second shot the hole is so clean. Many times poor grouping can be operator error, I figured that out from experience. Just my .02

[waksupi]

Considering I kick the butt of most rifle shooters, and have won a few shoots with a smoothbore against rifles, I think someone just needs to learn their gun better.

[johnson1942]

i think treading on smooth bore shooters is not kind at all. these kind of shooters are the the traditional of the traditional. have fun with them but i would never have one, and as far as accuracy, it isnt my kind of accuracy or distance. i prefer bumblebee groups and long ranges. i have seen a native american with a long tom 12 gauge and it was a real long tom, off hand with some kind of slug put it through the center of the black at 75 yards. he was a cree on the canada border and that long tom smooth bore kept his family in deer and moose meat. out here on the rolling prairie, i like rifleing in the bore.

[quail4jake]

166727Last Sunday I tried anemic charges of [Diamondback) FFg + 1 oz. #8 shot + the usual over shot, lubed felt cushioning, and OP wads in my GRF trade gun (cylinder bore) in an attempt to see whether I could hit a 3" circle at 25 yd. In short, I could, but the 60gr. FFg charges could manage no more than 7 hits in that 3" circle, but lots of hits everywhere else. (LOL)

As it had been some time since I fired the gun with RB's, I brought some cast from a Lyman mold along. Btw, they were cast from WW's and mic'd @ .604". For those I upped the charge to 80gr. and used a thin OP wad atop the powder charge, but varied the thickness of the patches: 5 shots with .014" pillow ticking; 5 shots with .018" ticking. The above pic clearly shows what happens when the patch thickness in a smoothbore is changed. The bright green hits are with the .014" patch (5 shots) on a 6" circle @ 25 yd. The other 5 were with the .018" patch at the same distance (3 touching!).

Btw, the .604" dia. RB isn't the trade gun's favorite. It prefers .597" - .600" dia. RB's with some sort of wad, either lubed felt, lubed corrugated cardboard, or plain card stock with either a .014" or .018" wet patch. The 1 H20 : 6 Ballistol patch lube pretty much eliminates any "crud ring" and leaves very little BP residue in the bore itself.
Amazing what patience and trial and error can do. I've fooled around with smoothboring and was astonished at the 50 yard groups I could get with my M1842 cal..69 with paper cartridge loading by the ordinance manual of 1851. Soon I'll be venturing into the 17th century repro. and reenacting world when there were no rifles and shot or ball were all you had...stay tuned, will have pics!

[daleraby]

"Opinions is like ***holes, ev'rybody got one"... SGT Robert Gray 1977, Hanau Germany, Pioneer Kaserne. Would like to point out that the weakest link in any shooting system is nearly ALWAYS the human factor. We gotta breathe, our hearts gotta beat, and our muscles get tired. Also, our eyes don't work so good at some point in life. Have played with a T/C New Englander 12 Ga. with an open choke and a patched .690 round ball. I think I could probably kill a deer with it out to about fifty yards, which is about the max I'd do with even a rifled muzzleloader on live game. Now, milk jugs is another story!