Triple 777 with #11 cap

[farmer66]

I am new to muzzle loading, and am ready to get my feet wet. I have a 50 caliber TC New Englander and was trying to select a powder. Lots of positive things on using T7, but the manufacturers site says to use it only with 209 primers. Several threads here talk about using it with vintage revolvers and #12 cap. Is it reasonable to use T7 with the #11 or #11 magnum cap?

Ken

[Tatume]

I have burned many pounds of Triple 7 in traditional sidelock muzzle loading rifles using standard #11 caps. I've not had misfires and have had excellent accuracy. Cleaning is by far the easiest of all the black powder substitutes, on a par with true black powder. Do not hesitate to use loose Triple 7 in your New Englander.

I have not used the pellets, and would not recommend the pellets. Could they be the source of your 209 primer warning?

Take care, Tom

[jcren]

I have no problem with 777 in any black powder, even pistols with #10 caps. The pellet is a whole nuther animal. They are so tightly compressed that a side burner will not light them consistently, even my inline didn't like them on cold mornings.

[mooman76]

A revolver has a straight through ignition which should work even better than a sidelock. As far as #11 and #10 caps, the only difference between them is the size.

[farmer66]

The literature says: "Use Triple Seven only in a 209 primer ignition system." But that statement is located in the pellet section, so I guess it applies to pellets.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Ken

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

it works fine in Thompson side locks , the important part is just like black powder you need to make sure that the flash channel is clean and free of oil.

over oiling then setting muzzle up leads to many an ignition problem with real black or subs

pop 2 caps down range , then pop a 3rd at a blade of grass in a safe direction a standard #11 has plenty of gas to make the blade of grass move , for a demo I took a sheet of toilet paper and a rubber banded it to hang over the muzzle the exiting gasses from a clean dry barrel and a #11 cap blow a hole in the toilet paper.

after you confirmed you have a good flow of gas leaving the muzzle that it will move blades of grass from a few inches , then you can begin loading

you may want to run an alcohol patch before and after the snapping of caps but if you didn't go crazy with the oil it shouldn't be necessary

I have also taken to storing muzzle loaders muzzle down after oiling

[daleraby]

Worked just fine in my T/C sidekicks right up until November arrived with typical Wisconsin temperature for that month. Then I had issues. Went back to black powder. Works just fine in percussion revolvers. As it isn't corrosive, it's my preference for that type of bullet launcher.

[rodwha]

There's a fellow who did a corrosion test comparing BP against Pyrodex and T7. Burned 3 piles on 3 pieces of steel and left them in the garage for 4 days. The Pyrodex was by far the worst with BP not far behind. However the T7 left the steel nearly pristine.

That's not to say it would corrode over more time.

[Tatume]

How much corrosion is too much? How do corrosion rates vary with humidity? Hodgdon Triple Seven combustion byproducts are corrosive. As easy as it is to clean, it would take a very lazy or ignorant person to allow a fine gun to be ruined by failure to clean it.

[Omnivore]

I too have used T7 loose powder without any noticeable ignition delays in revolvers with #10 caps. In paper cartridges too, where some people think the paper would get in the way of the cap flash and cause problems. That was in above-freezing weather though, so I'll have to defer to daleraby's account of cold weather use.

There's absolutely no reason to shy away from real black powder. If you're going to be hunting in cold weather, then order some real black powder and stop worrying about ignition. I don't want hear "it's hard to get in my area" either. UPS delivers, so it's easier than making the trip to the store. You can have some on the way to you in ten minutes, without having to change out of your pajamas or leave your couch.

and; corrosive schmorossive. I think enough hundreds of years of black powder use have gone by that we should know by now how to clean and maintain a black powder firearm. You think? You can, with such knowledge and it's proper application, therefore dismiss that issue entirely and forever.

The substitutes burn more efficiently than real black (once ignited) and so of course they're going to leave less residue. So what? Proper fouling mitigation practices make this issue moot. If you want the minimum residue, use modern smokeless technology.

I've played with T7 in revolvers for one reason and one reason only; because a revolver has a hard limit on chamber capacity (a true muzzleloader does not) and because T7 is far more compressible than black powder, we can stuff more oomph in a revolver with T7. Same would apply to Pyrodex to some extent. Those other things (corrosion, and so-called "availability" [what a joke]) have nothing to do with anything, but good ignition is paramount. If you're hunting in cold weather, you want the best igniting powder, and that's probably going to be the real thing.

Do your own research though. One anecdote does not prove anything. I suppose you could stick your loaded gun in the freezer for a few hours and then fire it right away, before it can warm up. Do that several times with the subs, and also with real black, and see how it washes out. Here in the northern states we can do that stuff outdoors all winter though. I use real black for hunting.

[725]

T7 w/ a #11 cap works when it's loose powder. Those T7 pellets need the #209 cap.

[daleraby]

Black powder certainly is available by UPS. I ordered ten pounds a few months ago. There is the issue of the hazardous materials fee, so if you order it, order enough that the hazmat fee gets spread out over several pounds. Might help to get together with other shooters in the area and order twenty five pounds to be split up amongst the members of the specific Black Powder cabal. You get a better price that way.

Another thing i learned was that not all #11 caps are equal. Never liked Remington's #11's. They were not uniform in size and had frequent misfires. i used to prefer RWS caps, but when I couldn't get them I tried CCI, which worked pretty well. Of late I have been using Winchester #11 Magnum primers... which I am very impressed with. This winter I might try them with 777 and see if I still get misfires.

Other things that may help with bad ignition are Hot Shot nipples and the use of fff or fffg black powder. Unless you are loading pretty heavy loads, you really won't get into pressure trouble with fff instead of ff powder. The same holds true with Pyrodex and 777. If you are at maximum loads, you DO need to reduce the loads as it states in all owner's manuals. Why anyone would ever shoot a maximum load in a muzzleloader is a mystery to me. How much deader than dead does the deer need to be?

All black powder is not equal either. My latest batch is fff Old Eynsford. So far, I'm a big fan of the stuff and the couple bucks extra per pound really doesn't amount to much when you are shooting 20 - 50 grains or so you get anywhere from 140 to 350 shots, so the cost per shot is a penny or less for better accuracy and reliablity. In cannons/mortars/swivel guns etc. it might make sense to go with the cheaper stuff as you may be burning a pound per shot. As I don't do cannon, I don't care about saving five or ten bucks every couple years.

Now all this is absolutely anecdotal, not the result of rigid scientific testing with control groups and such. in other words, your mileage may vary.

[rodwha]

"If you are at maximum loads, you DO need to reduce the loads as it states in all owner's manuals."

I'm afraid that isn't accurate. Read their instructions and warnings and you'll note the ONLY reason to reduce the load by 15% is to replicate poor BP load velocity. This isn't in any owner's manual.

[firefly1957]

I got a sealed pound of 777 loose powder at a yard sale for a buck it only has data for 50 caliber and below but i find 40 grains in my 58 shoots well ignited by a CCI #11 cap.

[daleraby]

"If you are at maximum loads, you DO need to reduce the loads as it states in all owner's manuals."

I'm afraid that isn't accurate. Read their instructions and warnings and you'll note the ONLY reason to reduce the load by 15% is to replicate poor BP load velocity. This isn't in any owner's manual.

You are correct, this is not in the manual, but it arguably should be. Thi is what IS in the manual:

Unreasonably heavy charges of Black Powder or an approvedBlack Powder substitute, such as Pyrodex can be dangerous. Restrict
yourself to the loads listed in this booklet and start with the lightest load
shown for your particular model and caliber. Bear in mind that the follow-
ing conditions can be cumulative. If you load the heaviest charge listed
without following instructions (working slowly upward), then other con-
ditions such as powder fouling, hard projectiles and improper loading,
can carry you well beyond the maximum safe pressure range of muzzle-
loading firearms.

Now, smaller granulations of powder have a faster burning rate, which will increase pressure when burned in an enclosed space such as the chamber/bore of a firearm. So if you are already at maximum loading with ff powder and you go to fff with the same volumetric charge weight, the the use of fff powder may well become one of those "other conditions" referenced in the manual but not specified. Further, as it is a smaller granulation, more of it will fit into the volumetric measure as well, so you are actually burning a heavier charge of a faster powder. The T/C manual, in fact, does not specifically recommend using fff powder in larger calibers, it gives all those loads in ff powder.

So, even though I referenced a well-known rule of thumb instead of what the manual states, I stand by my statement. To wit; if you are already at a maximum load and you change from ff to fff, you need to reduce your load to be safe. I'd say its always better to err on the side of caution anyway.

[rodwha]

"So if you are already at maximum loading with ff powder and you go to fff with the same volumetric charge weight, the the use of fff powder may well become one of those "other conditions" referenced in the manual but not specified."

That is a completely different story. Maybe I missed the reference.

[OverMax]

No harm in trying so long as your projectile is seated atop its T7 charge. I would suggest the use of CCI # 11 Mag caps for the purpose though.
Pellet form T7. _I have no experience with.

[rodwha]

I've used nothing but Rem #10's through my pistols and rifle with no issues. But then my rifle has eaten everything whereas my pistols only like the caps mentioned above.