44 Mag load for elk?

[James E Thompson]

The past two hunts with my handgun I've chosen 265 gr bullets. Because I've yet to make a kill, I don't really know the knock down power and trauma to the animal. I have read a few discussions concerning various bullet sizes and don't really know if more weight is better. I certainly believe it matters in how well you place the shot.

So what are the arguments, more is better or just place the shot in the lethal zone?

----Idaho Jim

[NSB]

There's no such thing as "knock down power" in any gun or caliber as far as hunting goes. Hitting an elk in the foot with a 458win mag won't do much except make him limp away. Hitting him in the heart/lungs with about any caliber will kill him. You need adequate penetration and a large wound channel is a big plus. Hitting where you aim, and aiming at the right spot is what it's all about with any gun.....long or short.

[44MAG#1]

Did you miss the posts by "Sixshot" in the thread: Newbie with a Super Blackhawk 44 mag and cast bullets-Hunting velocity?Seems that would be a good place to start and someone to ask.

[44man]

Weight gives penetration and has more energy. My hunting boolit for the .44 is 330 gr. The Lee 310 is a fabulous boolit. One season they were all I had left, only 4 and I shot 3 deer in 3 days and had 1 left.
The 265 will work. I have not used it for deer yet so can't say for sure.
Shot placement is most important and accuracy is at the top of the list. If you can't place the boolit, all else does not matter.
I have the RD 265 and with 22 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer, it will hold 3/4" at 50 yards and 1-1/4" at 100.
Some will say 4" at 50 is good enough or just hitting a pie plate will do but I am not going to give an opinion about that. Expand those groups to 100 and you better hunt at 30 yards instead.
Elk are hard to get close to so find accuracy first. I am sure the ability to hit will be the most important thing followed by boolit performance.
The most powerful gun made is worthless if you miss or get a bad hit.
I feel accuracy is most important for hunting and there is NO "good enough."
I can show what I mean.166549 Three shots off hand at 100 Yards with my 330 gr, 3/4" and then at 200 yards from the bench.166550 1-5/16".
Now this is from a Ruger SBH so if you shoot a S&W, DO NOT USE this heavy a boolit. You can get a failure or gun damage. 265 is perfect.
You are in the zone if you can hit.

[dverna]

44man makes excellent points. Frankly, many pistol hunters are NOT capable of achieving the accuracy needed to make killing shots under hunting conditions. If they can shoot 6" groups at 50 yards on the range, figure double that under field conditions and with adrenaline pumping.

A lot depends on your ability to make the shot and also the alloy you are using.

I am of the school, "bring enough gun". So I would not hunt with a pistol. But that is me. And I am not as good a pistol shot as 44man - best I can do is 3" at 50 yards. The minimum caliber I would use is a .308 with a good jacketed bullet. It affords more energy, greater accuracy, and a lot more range. In the end, the animal deserves to suffer the least amount possible.

[44man]

44man makes excellent points. Frankly, many pistol hunters are NOT capable of achieving the accuracy needed to make killing shots under hunting conditions. If they can shoot 6" groups at 50 yards on the range, figure double that under field conditions and with adrenaline pumping.

A lot depends on your ability to make the shot and also the alloy you are using.

I am of the school, "bring enough gun". So I would not hunt with a pistol. But that is me. And I am not as good a pistol shot as 44man - best I can do is 3" at 50 yards. The minimum caliber I would use is a .308 with a good jacketed bullet. It affords more energy, greater accuracy, and a lot more range. In the end, the animal deserves to suffer the least amount possible.
You are smart and make good points. i am also at the "bring enough gun" even with a revolver. It is why I never hunted with less then a .44. I don't want a .357 for big game even if it might work. It is never a .35 Rem or a 30-30.
A rifle hunter can't go wrong from the 6.5 Swede to .308 or 30-06 and a 270 or 280. But long-long range is where the mags come in. A 300 mag at 30 yards might be the worst ever.

[Teddy (punchie)]

44 Nice group at 200 yds looks good, but at the weight and the distance bullet is fast running out of energy. Not sure I would take a shot much more then say 100 yds. and that would be ?? I say if its 25 yds. or less handgun 44 loaded with 200 grain J-word and if over 25 yds use the rifle. I figured that My load with j-word is good to about 100 yds. maybe 125 yds. for whitetails, but Know I'm not planning on shooting that far. 50 yds. is about it for the 44 Pistol.

265 grain is going to cut a canal and not expand more then about twice the .429 , the canal has to be in the right spot.
Shocking powder, with the 44. There is maybe some, but it not going to be much shocking powder with a slow moving load.

[Teddy (punchie)]

About knock down power. I have only seen it on a heavy hit to spine in the high shoulder area. 300 mag. 150 gr J-word , and a 30-06 180 j-word . Both took him right off there feet. All others were hard to tell you hit them. Or they set down. All whitetail deer.

[44man]

44 Nice group at 200 yds looks good, but at the weight and the distance bullet is fast running out of energy. Not sure I would take a shot much more then say 100 yds. and that would be ?? I say if its 25 yds. or less handgun 44 loaded with 200 grain J-word and if over 25 yds use the rifle. I figured that My load with j-word is good to about 100 yds. maybe 125 yds. for whitetails, but Know I'm not planning on shooting that far. 50 yds. is about it for the 44 Pistol.

265 grain is going to cut a canal and not expand more then about twice the .429 , the canal has to be in the right spot.
Shocking powder, with the 44. There is maybe some, but it not going to be much shocking powder with a slow moving load.
You are exactly right. No stinking way I would shoot that far on deer. I see a difference at 100 and prefer 20 yards or so on deer. My stuff is only accuracy for fun and to test loads.
The Elmer stuff with the long shot still is kind of stupid. The revolver shot had little affect and the rifle shot did the animal in. He did hit but the rifle shot did the trick. Energy from the .44 at that range was less then a slingshot.

[44MAG#1]

I ran a balistic program (JBM) on a 300 gr Hornady started out at 1250 and went out to 600 yards and it showed a remaining velocity of 787 FPS.
Anyone care to load one at that velocity and Let their best buddy bend over and shoot him in the behind with that gravel flipper load? Maybe he could wear a couple pair of drawers to lessen the sting.
Oh yes, a 45 Auto with a 230 gr at 900 FPS has 413 fpe and 29.6 pounds momentum while the 300 gr 44 at 787 FPS has 412 fpe and 34 pounds momentum.
Quite a slingshot one has there. Homemade or store bought?
I want one.

[Hickory]

There's no such thing as "knock down power" in any gun or caliber as far as hunting goes.
So, if knock down power does not exist, then a 458 Winchester magnum will not kill a deer, moose or elk any faster then a 22 long rifle.
Or stated another way, a 22long rifle is just as effective as any other caliber for harvesting anything a person cares to shoot?

[44MAG#1]

Hickory,

You are fighting a losing battle. They will gang up on you and cause a stink and nothing will ever be solved.
Just be secure in you own knowledge and let it go.

[Hickory]

Hickory,

You are fighting a losing battle. They will gang up on you and cause a stink and nothing will ever be solved.
Just be secure in you own knowledge and let it go.

You maybe right, however, sometimes even a blind man can be made to see if the facts & truth is brought to light.

[44MAG#1]

Hickory,
I know what you mean. We all use the term "knock down power" as a descriptive term and not a scientific term.
Just like I made the mistake of saying 1/2mass times velocity squared divided by 32.1740 is how one figures energy and got jumped soundly by the scientist on here saying mass can not be weighed.
They knew what I meant but just had to tell me how ignorant I am.
But mass has Newtonian weights and that is derived from kilograms but still mass cannot be weighed.
So kilograms can't exist since mass cannot be weighed.
See my point.

[Hickory]

I know what you mean. NSB needs to be able to articulate his meaning in a more understandable way instead of just throwing out a blanket statement.

[sixshot]

I think I'll just stand on the sidelines and watch on this one, the last one just about wore me out...... other than to say I've taken 5 with the 44 magnum & 4 with the 45 Colt plus 2 with the 41 magnum. Carry on.

Dick

[MT Gianni]

So, if knock down power does not exist, then a 458 Winchester magnum will not kill a deer, moose or elk any faster then a 22 long rifle.
Or stated another way, a 22long rifle is just as effective as any other caliber for harvesting anything a person cares to shoot?
Absolutely correct assuming similar diameter and length of wound channel.
The rule with Elk whether with a 338 or 257 Roberts is to pick one out and continue shooting until it is on the ground with it's head down. While nothing you can legally by will knock an animal off of it's feet several bullets causing relatively wide, deep wound channels will put one down in short order.

[DougGuy]

My pet load for my .44 magnum SBH is the Lee C430-310-RF in Starline brass, over 17.0gr good old Hercules 2400, WLP primers. This runs right at 1180 ~ 1200fps from a 7 1/2" barrel, and at handgun hunting distances, it is still slightly supersonic when it hits hide. It is not a max load by the published data, but it's accurate and doesn't lead the bore, in fact I never have to clean this barrel.

The alloy I favor most is 50/50+2% (COWW/Pure lead + 2% tin). I like it air dropped, it is soft enough that I can dig a thumbnail into it, and I prefer Felix lube above all. This is an alloy that will expand, stay together if it hits bone, and not need a HP cavity and likely will not stop in a bull moose or elk unless shot lengthwise and even then is debatable. Me and 44man do this part exactly opposite but we both have game in the freezers year round, my loads are accurate in my arms, his accurate in his. It is because we have taken time to develop a load that the GUN LIKES and there in and of itself is the trick, right there. In my experience, I find this softer alloy and softer lube takes to the Ruger rifling profile and twist rate like a DUCK to WATER..

I have cylinder throats reamed to .4325" I size to .432" and have very smoothly recut the forcing cone on 11° and used a Wolff 30oz. trigger return spring, stock hammer spring. This is ALL that has been done to the gun, and this is all any Ruger single action used for hunting will ever need done to make it as accurate as is needed for the deer woods.

So I would recommend the Lee 310gr RF boolit, 50/50+2% over your chosen charge weight of 2400, LilGun, W296/H110, AA#9 with a WLP primer.

There is one more thing I use that I feel provides a consistent resistance in that instant upon firing that holds the boolit back from pulling crimp until the burning powder forces it to move, and that is my modified Lee uncataloged collet style factory crimp die. This die, when correctly modded, will form a band type crimp that will hold even a soft lead boolit dead steady under recoil, it will not allow the primer to cause the boolit to prematurely jump crimp causing erratic ignition and erratic pressures, and in my own loads it greatly lowers the ES which at the end of the day, rules out the flyers.

Although this crimp may LOOK excessive to some, the fact is that the softer an alloy, the MORE crimp is needed to keep the boolits from pulling. Soft alloy will actually swage against the crimp and allow the base of the boolit to move forward which is what you DO NOT want to happen as this will introduce an extreme variation in pressure. A hard alloy can get by with a minimal amount of roll crimp.

Here is a thread with full explanation and photos of the modified collet crimp die I use:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

Modified collet crimp die used on the rounds on the left side, spent cases showing the crimp band fully opened and laying flat against the chamber, right hand loads used the standard roll crimp:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC03150_zps2fffcc0c.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC03150_zps2fffcc0c.jpg.html)

Modified crimp on a 300gr Speer J-word on the left, and on the right is a factory Buffalo Bore "Deer Grenade" which they use a fairly soft 260gr HP, yet look at the crimp they use, these boolits don't pull and anyone who has touched off any of the high velocity hunting loads from Buffalo Bore, KNOWS they are NOT AFRAID to put the powder in the case! This is the style crimp I would want in dangerous game country as well, for big bears, cat, even hogs.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Birdshead%20Vaquero/DSC01451%20Custom_zpsm1sa6xtp.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Birdshead%20Vaquero/DSC01451%20Custom_zpsm1sa6xtp.jpg.html)

A properly executed forcing cone recut to 11°

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/44%20Magnum/DSC01739_zps53352b7c.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/44%20Magnum/DSC01739_zps53352b7c.jpg.html)


The past two hunts with my handgun I've chosen 265 gr bullets. Because I've yet to make a kill, I don't really know the knock down power and trauma to the animal. I have read a few discussions concerning various bullet sizes and don't really know if more weight is better. I certainly believe it matters in how well you place the shot.

So what are the arguments, more is better or just place the shot in the lethal zone?

----Idaho Jim

1st rule - Shot placement is KEY!

To answer your question, first off there isn't NOTHING on the North American continent that won't fall to a 265gr boolit from a .44! Generally the wider meplat the better you will kill with it, and of course the heavier boolit carries more energy even if it carries it all the way through an animal. You should hunt with what you are most accurate with. If you can handle a full house load with a heavy for caliber boolit and be accurate with it, yes more is exactly that, more. More energy, more momentum, not always but most times means more damage.

I would not recommend a HP, on game the size of elk or moose, you would be better off with a solid flat nose boolit that will ensure greater penetration. The heavier the boolit, the greater energy it carries so, unless it hits bone should translate to greater penetration. You see by these photos what I hunt with, I have about reasoned away all lesser boolits and charges.

[Bigslug]

So what are the arguments, more is better or just place the shot in the lethal zone?

I'll take door number two please.

In pitching the merits of his roughly .30 caliber meplat .44 bullet, Veral Smith stated that the classic Keith 429421 penetrates considerably more than it needs to for critters in the deer/pig/black bear class. He makes a very good case for it, but for elk, this may not be an entirely bad thing. I've seen them soak up an incredible amount of punishment when not hit well, and have zero confidence in the notion of breaking their major bone structures with much short of a .375 at any kind of distance. My inclination would be to drill a half inch hole through the boiler room and let them leak.

[James E Thompson]

Thanks for all the input, great comments. I've got three bullets (265 gr. 3/4 copper hp, 267 gr. 3/4 copper HP and 285 gr. full copper) to try and see which shoots the best. Good to hear the pros and cons on size of bullet. If I don't see much difference in accuracy and handling I will tend toward the heavier load for elk.

[44man]

I can't add to the great post Doug made and the Lee 310 is one great boolit. Bone is nothing much to worry about once weight is enough.
I do use a harder boolit for the tension and it does not hurt the .44 as far as killing. The .475 thrives on hard lead too but other calibers I use need a softer nose. I still keep the rest of the boolits hard.
One season a buck came across in front, moving fast. He was 76 yards and it was still dim out. As I lead him I seen what looked like a little brush ahead but the gun went off. The deer jumped around to my side and I took him in the neck with the next shot. When I got there I found I had shot an osage orange tree, 10" in diameter with another 10" trunk behind. My boolit went through the first trunk, into the second. Osage is some very tough wood!
I don't put much value on crimp. Friend brought factory cast loads to test in a few .454's. Not BB but another company known for hot loads. They had full profile crimps but it only took one shot to lock a freedom and two with a SRH. Not fun to tap boolits back in with a dowel! Very dangerous. I use the least crimp and depend on tension so not a single one of my loads pulled. I ran one for two cylinders full of hot loads. Even Lee boolits with the chicken scratch grooves hold.
I do not believe in ME or losing energy with a pass through because the boolit works because of energy expended. Make the boolit work and velocity or other figures mean nothing.
I see a difference when range increases. Deer shot to 75 yards or under make 20 to 30 yards with the .44 but at 100, they can make 100 yards but blood trails are good with two holes. Most every deer shot with the .475 drop like a sack of dog poo. Energy IS needed but it is not numbers, it is how the boolit works.
Doug uses softer to generate more energy but that goes against my tension needed because of boolit weight I use. Another reason I use only Fed 150 primers in the .44, keep boolits in until powder burn is going so Doug is 100% correct over that. I don't believe crimp alone can do it. A mag primer will break crimp. Even the dies you use can ruin accuracy by over expanding brass.
Case size determines primers so the .475 and up use a 155 best and the .454 should have LP pockets for it. The .45 Colt is border line and will work with a standard or WLP. Full mag is too much. ACP works best with a SP primer.
I had trouble with the 440 gr from my .500 JRH with too hard, deer going 100-120 yards. I softened half the nose but not pure, 3#of pure and 1# of WW. I dropped a big doe in her tracks. A big 8 point came out, seen her and stamped his feet at her to make her get up but she was down for good. He was in the thick but walked fast through the woods at 50 yards. I pulled a lead and found an opening, shot hit behind his shoulders and he dropped like a hot potato. Not many drop with just a double lung hit so my jaw dropped too.
WV confuses me, they reduced the amount of doe to kill but we can take a doe in gun season but if you kill a buck first you must kill a doe before taking another buck.

[white eagle]

I don't know that elk a hard to get close to
I shot one at 30 yds in a hunt in Idaho

[jaydub in wi]

A 300 mag at 30 yards might be the worst ever.
Sorry to sidetrack this post, but I did take a deer at 25 yards with this cartridge. With a 165 grain old style barnes X bullet, there was not too much blood shot meat either. I wouldn't consider this "the worst ever", but care has to be taken when choosing bullets for this cartridge to avoid bullet blow up.

[rlb]

167946170 yds with a Lee 310 and H110. I think the 44 is plenty of gun for elk.

[Don Purcell]

A good friend of mine took a bison with an LBT 300 grain LWFN from a Smith and Wesson Model 629 a few months ago. Bison sure are tasty.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think people think more of the ability to knock something off its feet. Not to kill it fast when they talk knock down power. If you think your load has a lot of the ability to knock something off its feet try the old test. Hang a 100lb back of feed corn or other grain on a stand that lets it swing freely then shoot it with a 300 wby or even a 458 and see how little force is actually applied by the bullet. the bag will barely swing. I think this and the ability to impart shock to the central nervous system get mixed up with the knock down power discussions.
I know what you mean. NSB needs to be able to articulate his meaning in a more understandable way instead of just throwing out a blanket statement.

[44MAG#1]

I think people think more of the ability to knock something off its feet. Not to kill it fast when they talk knock down power. If you think your load has a lot of the ability to knock something off its feet try the old test. Hang a 100lb back of feed corn or other grain on a stand that lets it swing freely then shoot it with a 300 wby or even a 458 and see how little force is actually applied by the bullet. the bag will barely swing. I think this and the ability to impart shock to the central nervous system get mixed up with the knock down power discussions.

Yes, to many people believe these cop shows where the perp gets shot with the 9MM or a 38 snubby and it knocks him over a couple trash cans or out the window and lays him flat like he was hit by a Kenworth.
Does not happen.

[44man]

I have around 180, give or take, deer kills with revolvers. I see things and do a necropsy on every deer. With the .44 and fast expanding bullets like the 240 XTP, I do not penetrate, blood trails do not exist and I back track every deer to impact point.
Moving to 300+, nothing stops the boolit. Great blood trails but any deer hit 50 or less does not need tracked, going down in less then 30 yards. Internal damage is very good.
Deer hit at 100 will go as far as 100 yards but still a good blood trail with full penetration. There is a large difference in internal damage but it is enough. Deer hit with the .44 take off. Deer hit with a heavy .45 Colt boolit will just lay down or walk away and bleed out. They shake their heads, panic and crash fast but I see the difference between the calibers. The Ruger Old Army is a surprise with a RB, kills very fast.
Deer hit with the .475 or JRH with a proper boolit will have most deer drop in their tracks even behind the shoulders. The hard .475 boolit has less meat damage but great internal damage. The JRH needs a portion of the nose softer. The big 440 gr if too hard will just poke a hole out to 120+ yards. The .44 and .475 can both use WD WW boolits. The .44 might work better at longer ranges if the nose was just a little softer. I never soften the whole boolit.
The 45-70 BFR sucks with a hard boolit, pokes a hole and deer can make 200 yards with no blood trails until 100 yards. I know where they are going so just go to where they cross to find first blood but have lost 2 deer with it. This is one gun that I still need to work with. The boolit MUST have a soft nose. It is too fast at 1630 fps.
Fastest kills seem to hover at 1300 to 1330 fps. Slower or faster slows the kills. Both sides need boolit work. Best I have found is half the nose softer.
I went to a 420 gr, 50-50 HP in the 45-70 once and got a quartering shot behind the shoulder. Exit in the off shoulder that was totally destroyed. Time to step back!
Next I used the 300 gr Hornady rifle bullet and it worked perfectly. But I am a cast boolit man first.
I used the softer nose .500 JRH on a big doe. She was walking fast so I lead her at shoulder front, perfect to hit behind shoulders. But at sear break, she stopped and I hit bone. I wiped out the bones, shoulder at entrance and neck on exit. I did save a lot of meat but many do not know how devastating a revolver can be.168027168028 This is the lowly .44, neck shot at 76 yards with a 330 gr WD, WW boolit. Ask if I want a HP or a 50-50 boolit! 168029 Heart with a full hard .475 at 55 yards, No meat loss. Boolit work in passage. Deer hit on the run.
As range and velocities change you must find what works. Same with animal size.
I believe my deer loads will work with ANY animal though.
I do NOT believe in ME, only what a boolit does inside. Toss the figures.

[FN in MT]

Killed two mature bulls with old fashioned Keith slugs over 22.0 of 2400.

Reading all these posts I must have been LUCKY?

[44man]

Killed two mature bulls with old fashioned Keith slugs over 22.0 of 2400.

Reading all these posts I must have been LUCKY?
Not luck, good boolit. The mistake is to look for massive expansion when the .44 just works as is.
I find many, many dead deer during and after season and most were shot with magnum rifles.
First problem is hunters around here never shoot all year, just check the scope with a few $4 a round shots before opening day. They are afraid of the guns so can't hit.
You fellas know what I mean, gut shots, rump shots, legs shot off and on and on. I once found a dozen on one property and there was SNOW on the ground. It is the MAGNUM thing and if a deer does not drop, "must have missed." Wait for another.
The average hunter is a SLOB! If you pull the trigger, your hunt is over, go find the animal. Maybe you DID miss or made a bad shot. How do you know?
A neighbor makes me cuss, loses half the deer he shoots at with a .308. I refuse to get him for a deer anymore. I am two properties away and my friend heard a shot, seen a buck come in to the thick, did not come out. I found the deer, gut shot. I said "wait" but we could see the orange in the stand and the jerk never got out to look. I told my friend, "Take the deer." I find many deer where I hunt, rotting and most are from the neighbor.
Hit right and eat, hit bad and you better get off your butt. .
I read a story long ago about western mule deer hunters. Shoot and if the deer did not drop, forget it.
I read stuff about some of us getting good kills with any gun but you are a SHOOTER and know what you use. I just talk about loser hunters that might take 3 shots a year.
Many up town hunt deer and I have invited all to come and shoot. But not a single one has except one and he does good every year.
Who would I want to hunt with me? ALL of you for sure.

[ShooterAZ]

I have also taken Elk with a 44 using 250 grain Keith bullets, 20 gr 2400 in a 14" T/C Contender. Previous to my starting to cast, I used 300 gr Hornady XTP's. All shots have been one shot kills, complete pass-throughs, no bullets ever recovered. Elk are not necessarily hard to get close to by the way, you just need to be a little sneaky and ambush them when they come to get a drink of water.

[FN in MT]

Not luck, good boolit. The mistake is to look for massive expansion when the .44 just works as is.
I find many, many dead deer during and after season and most were shot with magnum rifles.
First problem is hunters around here never shoot all year, just check the scope with a few $4 a round shots before opening day. They are afraid of the guns so can't hit.
You fellas know what I mean, gut shots, rump shots, legs shot off and on and on. I once found a dozen on one property and there was SNOW on the ground. It is the MAGNUM thing and if a deer does not drop, "must have missed." Wait for another.
The average hunter is a SLOB! If you pull the trigger, your hunt is over, go find the animal. Maybe you DID miss or made a bad shot. How do you know?
A neighbor makes me cuss, loses half the deer he shoots at with a .308. I refuse to get him for a deer anymore. I am two properties away and my friend heard a shot, seen a buck come in to the thick, did not come out. I found the deer, gut shot. I said "wait" but we could see the orange in the stand and the jerk never got out to look. I told my friend, "Take the deer." I find many deer where I hunt, rotting and most are from the neighbor.
Hit right and eat, hit bad and you better get off your butt. .
I read a story long ago about western mule deer hunters. Shoot and if the deer did not drop, forget it.
I read stuff about some of us getting good kills with any gun but you are a SHOOTER and know what you use. I just talk about loser hunters that might take 3 shots a year.
Many up town hunt deer and I have invited all to come and shoot. But not a single one has except one and he does good every year.
Who would I want to hunt with me? ALL of you for sure.

I agree with a lot of what you posted...especially "the average hunter is a slob".

During and after the general big game season we find all sorts of deer and elk wounded and left to die or worse yet...incapacitated and being eaten ALIVE by magpies, birds of prey and coyotes. NO animal deserves such a painful end.

Much of the issue where I hunt is the open spaces which make for long ranges and folks who are LOUSY shots. OR...the new trend I am seeing...LONG RANGE shooters. They buy an accurate, LR rifle and think they are Snipers, or tactical "operators". Now the goal is to make the LONGEST shot possible.

Few understand the complexities of LR shooting or the ballistics of their rds AT long range. That 7 Rem mag at 1K yds doesn't have the power it does at 300 yds. But they don't understand it.

Every new hunting season I feel sorrier for the game.

FN in MT

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Look at Post #28 by 44man. Those numbers for velocity sound familiar? Like black powder velocities? And heavy bullets? Seems similar to the old buffalo rounds. They sure worked. My deer last December was hit by a 367 gr bullet from a .45-70 loaded for Trapdoor pressures. He dropped at the shot. Almost no meat destroyed.

[Outpost75]

What he said^^^^

Also agree with the comments on Ruger Old Army with roundballs and heavy charge of high quality powder to get about 1000 fps. Have not killed anything over 200 pounds, but is death on whitetails. I load duplex in mine with black powder igniter, Red Dot and Buffalo Arms wad for 1000 fps with 230-grain TC Maxiball.

Kids, don't try this at home, but I fitted spare cylinder with transducer and worked up uniform 16kpsi load which approximated .45 Colt parameters.

[44man]

What he said^^^^

Also agree with the comments on Ruger Old Army with roundballs and heavy charge of high quality powder to get about 1000 fps. Have not killed anything over 200 pounds, but is death on whitetails. I load duplex in mine with black powder igniter, Red Dot and Buffalo Arms wad for 1000 fps with 230-grain TC Maxiball.

Kids, don't try this at home, but I fitted spare cylinder with transducer and worked up uniform 16kpsi load which approximated .45 Colt parameters.
Just use 41 gr of Swiss FFFG, it fits and will get to 1102 FPS with a RB.
I don't use a wad. My lube over the ball is a thicker BPCR lube, Crisco blows away in adjacent chambers.
I found another thing, my friend uses the Rem Buff hunter and boolits get cut badly from the gap. Cylinder is smaller and pressure goes right into the next throat. A RB does not get hurt.
My hunting life was kill clean and fast no matter the animal. I just can't believe how little some hunters feel about animals.
Once when pheasant hunting, I watched a fox squirrel for a while, left him alone. I came out the same way and found the squirrel dead on a fence post. Some creep killed it and left it.
I watched creeps shooting at running deer well over 200 yards with shotgun slugs. Seen and heard about deer stolen at gun point or stolen from where hung in camps. PA seemed the worst for that.
The greed is hard to understand.

[Groo]

Groo here
For those who are in to the "knock down" or "stopping power" mind set. try this.
Keith used the term "Slap" to describe the effect of a flat nose or expanding bullet.
"Slap" was the physical effect observed when the game was hit, not when the game went down.
"Slap" told you that you hit, "slap " caused the game to stop, trip,shake,fall down or run.
Keith seemed to have little use for bullets / or shells that did not show some "slap"
The "slap" is also an indication of how much "shock" to the nerves was supplied [ a bullet does not "shock" tissue]
This is depended on WHERE you hit and WHEN [ are they running or don't know you are there]
Killing is easy, the trick is to "slap" or "shock" the nerves to the point that a physical reaction is seen.

[44man]

Groo is right, can't knock an animal sideways but you can drop them out from under the gun before recoil is near done.
I have a few hundred deer with my .45 flintlocks and they usually go a short distance but when I drop the hammer on my .54 with a RB, they will be in a heap without a step. Fast kills happen with the right energy transfer to the nervous system.
I have found a WFN can fail if shot too fast and is too hard for the velocity. My take is the pressure wave from the flat will force tissue out of the way to again collapse. Slowing the hard boolit or letting it slow itself in passage with some upset works best.
Not talking about dead slow boolits with a pinch of Unique that can poke a hole without energy. Holes alone are not enough so you need to work on them. A pointed stick might be better if you can hold the deer with it.
Had a bad experience with my 7R pistol once. I shot a nice doe with a 154 gr Hornady because I could not get lighter ones to shoot. Good hit but no blood at all. I searched and searched so I walked circles and found her. Darn bullet is too tough from a pistol. Just a hole.
I tried the 120 gr with sad accuracy but tried Varget and got to 1/2" at 50. Works in the 7BR too with 2175 fps from a 10" barrel. I have not shot any deer with either since, opens are not kind anymore. One day I will put red dots on them.
Who would believe? VARGET! Hodgdon told me it would not work. Burns clean too. It is superior in the 6.5 swede too.
Either way, energy must work inside the animal and two holes are always best.
Some of the .44 boolits guys want are like trying to throw a badminton birdie through a deer. It takes more work then looking for big mushrooms in some junk you shoot at.
The 240 XTP is amazing--in a .44 special. Load to the hilt in a mag and you might have grass to eat as you search.
I was there long ago before I could hunt deer with the .44, blow up water, wood chucks, clay, wet paper. I was wrong. Find balance.

[theleo]

I love energy debates. I've killed 2 bulls with projectiles creating less than 70 fpe and triangular shape wounds 7/8" in diameter through the boiler room with practically no shock to the nerves or surrounding tissue. Put a hole through them and let them leak. More velocity and weight gives you the ability to take shots that can just end up wasting more meat.