Don't pray to God to keep you safe from the trials

[DCP]

Don't pray to God to keep you safe from the trials; pray to Him to give you strength to use that trial to become like Jesus! Then He will be more than willing to answer your prayers! Then you will never have another hopeless day again!

[rl69]

Amen.

[fast ronnie]

He uses those trials to teach us and more often than, to help others go through the same thing.

[w5pv]

Amen.

[Blackwater]

Wow! What a powerful and universal post! Thanks, and AMEN! I look back in my life, and if I hadn't been so challenged at many points, I'd probably have been about as sorry a rascal as possible! It's the challenges we face that really make us what we are, and help us to develop real character and the sticktoitiveness that we all need sooner or later. So many today have it so easy all through their lives, that they've become about as worthless as teats on a boar hog! They don't think, because they've never really HAD to to survive. I am SO thankful now, for all the trials I've been through in my time! I wasn't when I was going through them, of course, but that was then, when I didn't understand what they really meant or how they were shaping and molding me, and this is now, when I see SO much more clearly!

There is so much truth in your post, DCP! Thanks.

[buckwheatpaul]

Truer words have never been said.....AMEN

[retread]

Wow! What a powerful and universal post! Thanks, and AMEN! I look back in my life, and if I hadn't been so challenged at many points, I'd probably have been about as sorry a rascal as possible! It's the challenges we face that really make us what we are, and help us to develop real character and the sticktoitiveness that we all need sooner or later. So many today have it so easy all through their lives, that they've become about as worthless as teats on a boar hog! They don't think, because they've never really HAD to to survive. I am SO thankful now, for all the trials I've been through in my time! I wasn't when I was going through them, of course, but that was then, when I didn't understand what they really meant or how they were shaping and molding me, and this is now, when I see SO much more clearly!

There is so much truth in your post, DCP! Thanks.

AMEN to that!

[DCP]

I believe everyone wont even recognize a trial and they will just ignore it.
I can say for sure there is at least one right here in the Chapel. I pray he see the light.

NO ONE is better than than another. I am no better than a Murderer. ALL sins are equal.
I deserve damnation. Through Christ sacrifice I am saved by GRACE and GRACE alone.
I will sin today and I will sin tomorrow, Thank GOD for GRACE

[dverna]

All sins are not equal. And yes, some are better than others. These types of statements are so patently false that they exemplify how easily people can be manipulated to believe almost anything.

I trust you you never have a loved one murdered or raped. Should such a criminal be treated the same as a person who slaps you in the face? One can elect to turn the other cheek and do nothing but without consequences we would not be able to maintain order or some degree of safety.

[frkelly74]

Jesus in the Garden prayed to be delivered, if possible, from the ordeal he knew he was facing. But immediately prayed that Gods will not his own be fulfilled. Matt 26; 39. God wants us to ask for what we want but at the same time we must accept his will and trust that it will work out for the best.

[DCP]

All sins are not equal. And yes, some are better than others. These types of statements are so patently false that they exemplify how easily people can be manipulated to believe almost anything.

I trust you you never have a loved one murdered or raped. Should such a criminal be treated the same as a person who slaps you in the face? One can elect to turn the other cheek and do nothing but without consequences we would not be able to maintain order or some degree of safety.

ALL sins are equal in the eyes of GOD For the wages of sin is death

A murder or rapist will be forgiven if he or she believes in Christ and asked for forgiveness

You need to study scripture

[dtknowles]

ALL sins are equal in the eyes of GOD For the wages of sin is death

A murder or rapist will be forgiven if he or she believes in Christ and asked for forgiveness

You need to study scripture

I don't believe that all sins are equal. Just because it is the bible does not make its so.

Tim

[Omega]

ALL sins are equal in the eyes of GOD For the wages of sin is death

A murder or rapist will be forgiven if he or she believes in Christ and asked for forgiveness

You need to study scriptureAs nobody gets out alive I guess it's true that we are all sinners. I don't pray, but have been through enough ordeals that I can truly agree with the sentiment that your experiences in life make you what you are and I would not change them even if I had the chance. I will say this about "sins" though, I don't believe they can all be equal, isn't there at least some that there is no forgiveness for? I keep hearing that suicide is one of those, but since I don't really pay attention to all the different belief systems it could only apply to Catholics. What say you all?

[Ickisrulz]

ALL sins are equal in the eyes of GOD For the wages of sin is death

A murder or rapist will be forgiven if he or she believes in Christ and asked for forgiveness

You need to study scripture

John 19:11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

Jesus seemed to believe one sin was greater than another.



The idea that all sins are equal is something you heard from the pulpit, not something written in the Bible. Even though the penalty for sin is death (in every case), this does not mean all sins are the same in God's eyes (see above for just one example). Don't forget about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit for which Jesus said there is no forgiveness. That seems like a particularly bad one.

[dverna]

DCP,

If we believed that all sins are equal, the world would be an ugly place.

If I enter your home to steal from you, that is a sin. But, in God's eyes, If I decided to rape your daughter during the robbery, God would see no difference. And if your wife comes to protect her and I murder them both that is equal as well.

Sin, regardless of degree, has no consequence if one believes in Christ and asks for forgiveness.

There is something wrong about that. It tears at the very fabric of trying to be as good a person as one can be. Fortunately, mankind does not function like that. We impose consequences based on the severity of our bad decisions. Think about what life here would be like if we believed all sins are equal.

[Ickisrulz]

Matthew 16:9-13 seems to be suggesting we should pray for God to keep us safe from the trials...and that was from Jesus (you will probably recognize this verse).

"And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

[Ickisrulz]

I don't believe they can all be equal, isn't there at least some that there is no forgiveness for? I keep hearing that suicide is one of those, but since I don't really pay attention to all the different belief systems it could only apply to Catholics. What say you all?

I have known two Christian people that killed themselves. I know at least one of the families was seriously worried that they would be sentenced to hell for this action. I can assure you that the notion of going to hell because of committing suicide is not a biblical idea. It is just another one of those things that some people think is in the Bible because someone in authority told them for whatever reason. Then they never went back through and checked for themselves.

[DCP]

ALL sins are forgivable (that is between you and GOD)only one is unforgivable(Unbelief)
We also must forgive like Christ 70x7

In Gods eyes all but one sin if forgivable.

In GODs eye there is no ranking of sin.

If you really accept Jesus Christ as your Saver, you must be like Christ and you cant do it (aka a Sinner)

If you think your a better Christian than others this is a slippy slope (sometimes call a Hippocratic)

All you have to do is accept Christ and ask for forgiveness.

Christ paid for all our sins long ago.

[rl69]

The only unforgivable sin is the sin against the holly spirt.

I am also from the camp that believes the wages of sin is death. I also believe that forgiveness is equal. Now the earthly consuconsis of your actions or deferent

[Ickisrulz]

ALL sins are forgivable (that is between you and GOD)only one is unforgivable(Unbelief)
We also must forgive like Christ 70x7

In Gods eyes all but one sin if forgivable.

In GODs eye there is no ranking of sin.


Just because you keep saying it doesn't mean it's true. Some sins are worse than others to God. I pointed out two instances (of many) in the Bible and it looks like you amended your position to include one.

You are trying to work backwards: all sin leads to death, all sin can be forgiven--therefore all sin is equal. The only problem with that is that the Bible shows not all sins are equal.

What do you do with verses like the one above in John (John 19:11) and 2 Peter 2:20-21?

[DCP]

The only unforgivable sin is the sin against the holly spirt.

I am also from the camp that believes the wages of sin is death. I also believe that forgiveness is equal. Now the earthly consuconsis of your actions or deferent


:goodpost:

The sin against the Holy Ghost or Spirit is unbelief

[DCP]

I found these words by the Rev Billy Graham

Mr. Graham has also been asked whether all sins are equal in God’s eyes. This was his answer:

It is always difficult and dangerous to attempt to list sins according to their degree of seriousness. In one sense, all sins are equal in that they all separate us from God. The Bible’s statement, “For the wages of sin is death …” (Romans 6:23), applies to all sin, whether in thought, word, or deed.
At the same time, it seems obvious that some sins are worse than others in both motivation and effects, and should be judged accordingly. Stealing a loaf of bread is vastly different than exterminating a million people. Sins may also differ at their root.
Theologians have sought for centuries to determine what the essence of sin is. Some have chosen sensuality, others selfishness, and still others pride or unbelief. In the Old Testament, God applied different penalties to different sins, suggesting variations in the seriousness of some sins. A thief paid restitution; an occult practitioner was cut off from Israel; one who committed adultery or a homosexual act or cursed his parents was put to death (see Exodus, chapter 22 and Leviticus, chapter 20).
In the New Testament Jesus said it would be more bearable on the day of judgment for Sodom than for Capernaum because of Capernaum’s unbelief and refusal to repent after witnessing His miracles (Matthew 11:23-24). The sins of Sodom were identified in Ezekiel 16:49-50 as arrogance, gluttony, indifference to the poor and needy, haughtiness, and “detestable things.”
When Jesus spoke of his second coming and judgment, he warned that among those deserving punishment some would “be beaten with many blows” and others “with few blows” (Luke 12:47-48). He also reserved His most fierce denunciations for the pride and unbelief of the religious leaders, not the sexually immoral (Matthew 23:13-36).
However, remember that whether our sins are relatively small or great, they will place us in hell apart from God’s grace. The good news is that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins and the sins of the whole world at the Cross. If we will repent and turn to Jesus in faith, our sins will be forgiven, and we will receive the gift of eternal life.

[dverna]

Icki

It is dogma. No explanation needed. Do not question. Do not challenge. Accept. If you are not assimilated you will die. The choice is yours!

[Ickisrulz]

:goodpost:

The sin against the Holy Ghost or Spirit is unbelief

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was the specific act the Pharisees committed when they attributed Jesus' miracles to Satan.

Blasphemy means speaking out against in some manner. It might be because of unbelief, but unbelief is not blasphemy. Unbelief is also forgivable.

[Ickisrulz]

I found these words by the Rev Billy Graham

Mr. Graham has also been asked whether all sins are equal in God’s eyes. This was his answer:

It is always difficult and dangerous to attempt to list sins according to their degree of seriousness. In one sense, all sins are equal in that they all separate us from God. The Bible’s statement, “For the wages of sin is death …” (Romans 6:23), applies to all sin, whether in thought, word, or deed.
At the same time, it seems obvious that some sins are worse than others in both motivation and effects, and should be judged accordingly. Stealing a loaf of bread is vastly different than exterminating a million people. Sins may also differ at their root.
Theologians have sought for centuries to determine what the essence of sin is. Some have chosen sensuality, others selfishness, and still others pride or unbelief. In the Old Testament, God applied different penalties to different sins, suggesting variations in the seriousness of some sins. A thief paid restitution; an occult practitioner was cut off from Israel; one who committed adultery or a homosexual act or cursed his parents was put to death (see Exodus, chapter 22 and Leviticus, chapter 20).
In the New Testament Jesus said it would be more bearable on the day of judgment for Sodom than for Capernaum because of Capernaum’s unbelief and refusal to repent after witnessing His miracles (Matthew 11:23-24). The sins of Sodom were identified in Ezekiel 16:49-50 as arrogance, gluttony, indifference to the poor and needy, haughtiness, and “detestable things.”
When Jesus spoke of his second coming and judgment, he warned that among those deserving punishment some would “be beaten with many blows” and others “with few blows” (Luke 12:47-48). He also reserved His most fierce denunciations for the pride and unbelief of the religious leaders, not the sexually immoral (Matthew 23:13-36).
However, remember that whether our sins are relatively small or great, they will place us in hell apart from God’s grace. The good news is that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins and the sins of the whole world at the Cross. If we will repent and turn to Jesus in faith, our sins will be forgiven, and we will receive the gift of eternal life.





I agree with Rev Graham. All sins result in death and all can be forgiven. But some are worse than others to God and to people. I think that is what he is saying anyway. But, I will not concede he is the final authority of biblical interpretation despite his tremendous work.

[DCP]

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was the specific act the Pharisees committed when they attributed Jesus' miracles to Satan.

Blasphemy means speaking out against in some manner. It might be because of unbelief, but unbelief is not blasphemy. Unbelief is also forgivable.

Is there a sin that cannot be forgiven?Yes, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is any sin that a person clings to by continually resisting the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind that there is not one specific sin that is unforgivable, such as lying, stealing or murder, but rather a perpetual hardening of the heart and willfully sinning against God and man (1 Timothy 4:2; Titus 1:15). In Acts 7:51 Stephen says the following to the Pharisees, "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.” In a nutshell the unforgivable, or unpardonable, sin is any sin that a person doesn’t want to give up, confess, or even ask forgiveness for and additionally doesn’t want to hear any more about it from the Holy Spirit.

Or simply Unbelief

[Ickisrulz]

Is there a sin that cannot be forgiven?

Yes, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is any sin that a person clings to by continually resisting the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind that there is not one specific sin that is unforgivable, such as lying, stealing or murder, but rather a perpetual hardening of the heart and willfully sinning against God and man (1 Timothy 4:2; Titus 1:15). In Acts 7:51 Stephen says the following to the Pharisees, "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.” In a nutshell the unforgivable, or unpardonable, sin is any sin that a person doesn’t want to give up, confess, or even ask forgiveness for and additionally doesn’t want to hear any more about it from the Holy Spirit.

Or simply Unbelief

I have no idea where you grabbed this from or what credentials the person who wrote it has. In any event it is wrong concerning the one unforgivable sin. It is correct in saying when unbelievers refuse to confess and repent, their sins are not forgiven (pretty obvious from scripture).

The Pharisees said Jesus did miracles (cast out a demon) in cooperation with Satan. In response Jesus told them that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven. The simplest conclusion is that attributing the works of Jesus to Satan instead of the Holy Spirit was blasphemy. You cannot reasonably take it any farther than that when you consider all other manner of sins are forgiven.

[DCP]

I have no idea where you grabbed this from or what credentials the person who wrote it has. In any event it is wrong concerning the one unforgivable sin. It is correct in saying when unbelievers refuse to confess and repent, their sins are not forgiven (pretty obvious from scripture).

The Pharisees said Jesus did miracles (cast out a demon) in cooperation with Satan. In response Jesus told them that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven. The simplest conclusion is that attributing the works of Jesus to Satan instead of the Holy Spirit was blasphemy. You cannot reasonably take it any farther than that when you consider all other manner of sins are forgiven.

Here you go
http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/why-blasphemy-against-holy-spirit-unpardonable-sin

[Ickisrulz]

Here you go
http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/why-blasphemy-against-holy-spirit-unpardonable-sin

The very term "blasphemy" means speaking out against some one. The article ignores this and makes the fantastic leap to unbelief.

[DCP]

The very term "blasphemy" means speaking out against some one. The article ignores this and makes the fantastic leap to unbelief.

I will pray for US to have a better understanding of what we are talking about.

[Ickisrulz]

I will pray for US to have a better understanding of what we are talking about.

I don't know what you mean by this or if I should take it at face value.

I have studied the Bible for decades. This means on my own, in a private Bible school in the 1980's and then earned a BA degree from an Evangelical Christian college. I understand what I am talking about, know pretty much what the Bible says and how it should be interpreted. I know that I am not 100% correct about everything, but I can sure recognize when something is incorrect. I have also seen that the presentation of some incorrect ideas can be harmful to Christians. You have listed a few on this very thread.

[rl69]

Icki

It is dogma. No explanation needed. Do not question. Do not challenge. Accept. If you are not assimilated you will die. The choice is yours!


I sure don't see that.I see people with diferant views discussing their doctrin. I would be suprised if any of us felt that our salvation hinged on this issue.

To me this is a love issue. we are to love our neighbor as we love our selves. We are too love everyone nomatter what. This doesn't mean you get a free pass. if you break a law you are prosecuted accordingly.

[dtknowles]

As nobody gets out alive I guess it's true that we are all sinners. I don't pray, but have been through enough ordeals that I can truly agree with the sentiment that your experiences in life make you what you are and I would not change them even if I had the chance. I will say this about "sins" though, I don't believe they can all be equal, isn't there at least some that there is no forgiveness for? I keep hearing that suicide is one of those, but since I don't really pay attention to all the different belief systems it could only apply to Catholics. What say you all?

In the Catholic Catechisms we were taught that there were Mortal and Venial sins.

Tim

[jmort]

It is axiomatic that some sins are worse than others. I pray fervently that neither I, nor my family, and other for that matter, will NOT suffer from anything including "trials." Had a Pastor that would preach week after week about the "blessing" he and his father had from the trial of his father's terminal cancer. There is a blessing I pray to never endure.

[DCP]

ALL sins are forgivable (that is between you and GOD)only one is unforgivable(Unbelief)
We also must forgive like Christ 70x7

In Gods eyes all but one sin if forgivable.

In GODs eye there is no ranking of sin. The wage of sin is death

If you really accept Jesus Christ as your Saver, you must be like Christ and you cant do it (aka a Sinner)

If you think your a better Christian than others this is a slippy slope (sometimes call a Hippocratic)

All you have to do is accept Christ and ask for forgiveness.

Christ paid for all our sins long ago.

[rl69]

In a worldly sense I agree but a heavenly sense I disagree

[rl69]

I pray that no one goes threw those trials

[Blackwater]

It is my belief (not KNOWLEDGE, but "belief") that when Christ suffered, bled and died on the cross, He can forgive anything and everything. That's why He came here. But blasphemy, I believe, would involve some sort of lower status in Heaven if we've been saved and forgiven and repented. How many levels there are in Heaven doesn't really concern me. What concerns me is simply being forgiven, so I can get there at all! I leave all the technicalities up to God, and just try to take care of what's within my ability to deal with, and I try to learn to do that more effectively. It's been a life-long process, and it's not over yet, and doesn't look to ever be. Sure keeps me humble.

[frkelly74]

Blackwater, THAT is faith. Believe, and let God work out all the details.

[Blackwater]

Oh! And as to the greater/lesser sin issue, ALL sin merits death. It separates us from our Lord, which always merits death, physically and spiritually. So the penalty for all sin is the same. However, there are degrees of severity of sin, and I think this probably (?) makes a difference in what we need to do to repent. More difficult repentance and redemption means it's more serious, in the end.

That's just my take on it, anyway, but I try very hard not to be like the old scribes and pharisees, and pretend I know more than I do. I only have beliefs when it comes to the fine points of our faith, and I try to find the closest thing I can to the actual Truth. Then, I just try to act on it. Being human, I frequently don't quite get scored 100% on any test, but I try to pass at minimum, and from there, do the best I know how to do, and then keep searching for more and better. I am not where I want to be yet, and likely never will be, but I'm running the race as fast and best as I know how. All Christ ever asked was our best, and we just don't give Him that very often. I try, but I can't quite pull it off. This is why I feel comfortable around sinners, and not intimidated at all. I know I won't be tempted by anything they offer me, and I always try to let them know I genuinely care about them, no matter what their station in life.

There's so much judgmentalism in the world today! And Christ warned us about that, but being human, we so often seek good in one area, and forget about another and fall into being judgmental when we were setting out to do good.

Nobody said Christianity was EASY, did they? Chesterton said, "Christianity has never been tried and found wanting. It has merely been found difficult and left untried." I think he said a mouthful there!

[Ickisrulz]

It is my belief (not KNOWLEDGE, but "belief") that when Christ suffered, bled and died on the cross, He can forgive anything and everything. That's why He came here. But blasphemy, I believe, would involve some sort of lower status in Heaven if we've been saved and forgiven and repented.

I was thinking I wouldn't get involved in these type of discussions today...but this begs for someone to say something.

Where in the world did you get the idea that there are varied levels of forgiveness? This is so contrary to the New Testament's teaching I am baffled you would say such a thing. You are either forgiven or you are not forgiven. There is no penance. There is not status based on forgiveness other than being justified.

Now, when you used the word "blasphemy" above are you talking about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or blasphemy of God the Father and/or the Son of God? The former is unforgivable and the latter is forgivable.

Are you aware that Paul was once a blasphemer (1 Tim 1:13)? I am sure he does not have a reduced status in heaven.

[Omega]

So if, as I understand you all, unbelief and blasphemy is unforgivable then why do many of you go through all the trouble of trying to convert unbelievers?

[Ickisrulz]

So if, as I understand you all, unbelief and blasphemy is unforgivable then why do many of you go through all the trouble of trying to convert unbelievers?

I hope you are not lumping me in with that "all."

As I said above, there is one sin and only one sin for which Jesus said there is no forgiveness. He said this when Pharisees claimed he performed miracles using the power of the Devil. He said blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has no forgiveness. This is not unbelief! It is attributing the work Jesus did through the Holy Spirit to Satan. I wonder if this offense can even be committed today since Jesus ascended?

No amount of spin or wishful thinking can make unbelief equal to what the Pharisees were doing. Unbelief is forgivable as are all other sins and transgressions. This includes blasphemy against the Father and the Son. Paul the Apostle was once a blasphemer (and Abraham was once an idolater--just for the record).

[jmort]

"Where in the world did you get the idea that there are varied levels of forgiveness?"


​Possibly a misstatement? One would hope. Jesus paid the price for all sins, past, present and future. All sins have been covered and paid for, and all have been redeemed. When someone is born again there is remission of sin, a free gift redemption when asked for, and a clean slate. You have to ask for it, otherwise you are still responsible for the debt. When believers sin, we are instruction to ask for "forgiveness" of sin, and our new sins shall be forgiven. There is a one time redemption from sin, and forgiveness thereafter for believers.

[DCP]

Unbelief is the rejection of the Holy Ghost and is a unforgivable sin period

Rejection of the Holy Ghost is UNBELIEF

[Ickisrulz]

Unbelief is the rejection of the Holy Ghost and is a unforgivable sin period

Rejection of the Holy Ghost is UNBELIEF

Just because you keep saying something over and over doesn't make it true. Saying "period" at the end of your claim doesn't give it any more creditably. You have no biblical or even logical support for your position.


Blasphemy is "the use of slander to make one’s thoughts publicly known in an attempt to ruin the good name and reputation of someone else in order to hinder them."


Unbelief is "the lack of religious belief or an absence of faith"


“Blasphemy” and “unbelief” are not the same thing...they are not synonymous...you cannot exchange one word for the other.


Jesus said "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" not "unbelief" was unforgivable. Lots of people in the Bible were forgiven for unbelief.

[Omega]

I hope you are not lumping me in with that "all."

As I said above, there is one sin and only one sin for which Jesus said there is no forgiveness. He said this when Pharisees claimed he performed miracles using the power of the Devil. He said blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has no forgiveness. This is not unbelief! It is attributing the work Jesus did through the Holy Spirit to Satan. I wonder if this offense can even be committed today since Jesus ascended?

No amount of spin or wishful thinking can make unbelief equal to what the Pharisees were doing. Unbelief is forgivable as are all other sins and transgressions. This includes blasphemy against the Father and the Son. Paul the Apostle was once a blasphemer (and Abraham was once an idolater--just for the record).Hmm, so if I say that "miracles" can be attributed to something besides a deity would that make me a blasphemer? Or do I have to actually believe in the devil and attribute it to him for it to be so? Because for the most part, I am in the first camp since I really don't do the whole Jesus (all three of him) or Satan part.

[Ickisrulz]

Hmm, so if I say that "miracles" can be attributed to something besides a deity would that make me a blasphemer? Or do I have to actually believe in the devil and attribute it to him for it to be so? Because for the most part, I am in the first camp since I really don't do the whole Jesus (all three of him) or Satan part.

The Pharisees were believers and I presume they knew what they were doing when they made the claims they did. How you do or do not parallel them I cannot say.

[Blackwater]

I was thinking I wouldn't get involved in these type of discussions today...but this begs for someone to say something.

Where in the world did you get the idea that there are varied levels of forgiveness? This is so contrary to the New Testament's teaching I am baffled you would say such a thing. You are either forgiven or you are not forgiven. There is no penance. There is not status based on forgiveness other than being justified.

Now, when you used the word "blasphemy" above are you talking about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or blasphemy of God the Father and/or the Son of God? The former is unforgivable and the latter is forgivable.

Are you aware that Paul was once a blasphemer (1 Tim 1:13)? I am sure he does not have a reduced status in heaven.

I don't believe I mentioned anything about varied levels of forgiveness. Forgiveness is forgiveness, and there are no levels of forgiveness. However, I think there well might be differing levels in Heaven. After all, there's God and Christ, who sits at His right hand, then the Archangels, Cherubims, etc, then the regular angels. So even in Heaven, apparently, there seems to be a hierarchy, and the highest levels seem to be the most valued and powerful. Does it not follow, then, that there may well be varied levels in Heaven for us mortals who make it there, according to how well we served Him while on earth?

I don't hold his as fact, but as a proposition worth considering. That's all. But good question, nevertheless.

[dverna]

Just because you keep saying something over and over doesn't make it true. Saying "period" at the end of your claim doesn't give it any more creditably. You have no biblical or even logical support for your position.


Blasphemy is "the use of slander to make one’s thoughts publicly known in an attempt to ruin the good name and reputation of someone else in order to hinder them."


Unbelief is "the lack of religious belief or an absence of faith"


“Blasphemy” and “unbelief” are not the same thing...they are not synonymous...you cannot exchange one word for the other.


Jesus said "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" not "unbelief" was unforgivable. Lots of people in the Bible were forgiven for unbelief.


I truly enjoy and am educated by your posts Ickisrulz. Thank you for your participation in these discussions. Too many spout the same stuff over and over and act as if they know what they are talking about.

If there is a God, and he judges as most here believe, I will not go to heaven as I have not accepted Christ. While I live out the small amount of time I have left, I keep questioning and pondering if God exists. No one can be 100% sure He does not exist. Or does He exist in a way that is different than reported in the Bible. Maybe I will be accused of having self serving reasons for thinking that....but it is a valid question.

For centuries there has not been a manifestation of God that would demonstrate "proof". The Bible reports many such things and so we are left to faith to accept God. I wonder if God got fed up and abandoned us; or maybe He is too busy creating other worlds after the mess He made of this one.

[jmort]

"However, I think there well might be differing levels in Heaven."

Yes, indeed. Those of us in Heaven can be described as vessels of honor and dishonor (i.e. a chamber pot). Your soul and works go though a purifying fire and you have left whatever is not burned up, like good works. Nothing bad,sinful, or evil survives the purifying fire. That is why it is a good idea to renew your mind. Better to have a death-bed conversion, be born again right before the end, and make it into Heaven, or be a carnal Christian and make it in, but there will be purifying. That is why there are so many admonitions to store up your treasure in Heaven where it is eternal and cannot be taken from you like earthly treasures.There will be those with Martyrs' Crowns.

[Ickisrulz]

I don't believe I mentioned anything about varied levels of forgiveness. Forgiveness is forgiveness, and there are no levels of forgiveness. However, I think there well might be differing levels in Heaven. After all, there's God and Christ, who sits at His right hand, then the Archangels, Cherubims, etc, then the regular angels. So even in Heaven, apparently, there seems to be a hierarchy, and the highest levels seem to be the most valued and powerful. Does it not follow, then, that there may well be varied levels in Heaven for us mortals who make it there, according to how well we served Him while on earth?

I don't hold his as fact, but as a proposition worth considering. That's all. But good question, nevertheless.

You said if a person blasphemed he would be allowed in heaven, but have a lower status. A lower status based on having committed some sins implies varied levels of forgiveness. I don’t know how anyone could think you meant anything different.


Status (i.e., positions to serve) based on having been a good steward on earth is an entirely different idea and is biblical. But this wasn’t expressed in your post.

[DCP]

Just because you keep saying something over and over doesn't make it true. Saying "period" at the end of your claim doesn't give it any more creditably. You have no biblical or even logical support for your position.


Blasphemy is "the use of slander to make one’s thoughts publicly known in an attempt to ruin the good name and reputation of someone else in order to hinder them."


Unbelief is "the lack of religious belief or an absence of faith"


“Blasphemy” and “unbelief” are not the same thing...they are not synonymous...you cannot exchange one word for the other.


Jesus said "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" not "unbelief" was unforgivable. Lots of people in the Bible were forgiven for unbelief.

Just because you say it doesnt make it true

I was told this over 40 years ago by the Pastor of my Church
I gave you a reference that you total dismissed that proved my Pastor correct'

Please stop calling me a liar

I will pray for you

Vaya con Dios

[Ickisrulz]

For centuries there has not been a manifestation of God that would demonstrate "proof". The Bible reports many such things and so we are left to faith to accept God. I wonder if God got fed up and abandoned us; or maybe He is too busy creating other worlds after the mess He made of this one.

In the Bible, miracles and appearances of God are relatively rare. There are in fact centuries between such things. Even these "proofs" did not always result in belief. Jewish leaders saw that Lazarus had been raised from the dead. Instead of believing in Christ they plotted to kill both of them. Such examples could go on.

God didn't make a mess of this world. The creatures he made did. But unlike people, God does not abandon that which failed. He had a plan in place before the first people disobeyed him to fix it. That plan of course is Jesus Christ. That is the biblical account. To me the Bible is the only plausible explanation and cure for where we are.

[Ickisrulz]

Just because you say it doesnt make it true

I was told this over 40 years ago by the Pastor of my Church
I gave you a reference that you total dismissed that proved my Pastor correct'

Please stop calling me a liar

I will pray for you

Vaya con Dios

Are you kidding me with this? You are correct because your pastor told you something 40 years ago?

Where have I called you a liar? To disagree with someone is not calling them a liar.

I read your reference and said I disagreed with it. I then told you why I understood something the way I did complete with facts and logic. I didn't just repeat something I heard.

Coming from me at this point it won't do much good other than make you mad, but you really should do some Bible study on your own with some good scholarly commentaries. No one should be just repeating things they've heard from the pulpit without checking them out.

[DCP]

Are you kidding me with this? You are correct because your pastor told you something 40 years ago?

Where have I called you a liar? To disagree with someone is not calling them a liar.

I read your reference and said I disagreed with it. I then told you why I understood something the way I did complete with facts and logic. I didn't just repeat something I heard.

Coming from me at this point it won't do much good other than make you mad, but you really should do some Bible study on your own with some good scholarly commentaries. No one should be just repeating things they've heard from the pulpit without checking them out.

If you had truly study just the way you said you did in the Bible college,that said you went to. You would know this argument has been going on for eons.

I get the sense you think you're better than than most. I truly hope I'm wrong. I must say you've accuse me of things that just aren't true but I won't convince you otherwise because you dismiss and distort the facts.

Again I will pray for you

You and I have strayed totally from the point of my original post. Then again maybe you and I havent.

Maybe you're my trial to teach others later down the road.

Vaya con Dios

[Ickisrulz]

If you had truly study just the way you said you did in the Bible college,that said you went to. You would know this argument has been going on for eons.

I get the sense you think you're better than than most. I truly hope I'm wrong. I must say you've accuse me of things that just aren't true but I won't convince you otherwise because you dismiss and distort the facts.

Again I will pray for you

You and I have strayed totally from the point of my original post. Then again maybe you and I havent.

Maybe you're my trial to teach others later down the road.

Vaya con Dios







The only person who accused anyone of anything was you. You claimed I kept calling you a liar, which I never had. Then you accused me of thinking I am better than others. How come? Because I don’t agree with what you say? You should really go back and take a look at these posts.


I haven’t distorted any facts. I have disagreed with you and stated why. I have disagreed with almost everything you have said in this thread (and others have on certain points as well).


Let me summarize:


You started off by claiming that we should never pray for our trials to be removed. That was the original point of the thread…and it is biblically incorrect. Jesus actually told us to pray that we don’t enter into trials.


You claimed that all sins are the same. This is biblically incorrect also. Jesus specifically remarked to Pilate that Judas’ sin was greater than Pilate’s. There are other examples of some sins being worse than other ones in the Bible.


Then you claimed Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unbelief because (of all reasons!) your pastor 40 years ago told you this. I presented some actual reasons for my understanding of the issue that I arrived at through careful study and thought.

[DCP]

The only person who accused anyone of anything was you. You claimed I kept calling you a liar, which I never had. Then you accused me of thinking I am better than others. How come? Because I don’t agree with what you say? You should really go back and take a look at these posts.


I haven’t distorted any facts. I have disagreed with you and stated why. I have disagreed with almost everything you have said in this thread (and others have on certain points as well).


Let me summarize:


You started off by claiming that we should never pray for our trials to be removed. That was the original point of the thread…and it is biblically incorrect. Jesus actually told us to pray that we don’t enter into trials.


You claimed that all sins are the same. This is biblically incorrect also. Jesus specifically remarked to Pilate that Judas’ sin was greater than Pilate’s. There are other examples of some sins being worse than other ones in the Bible.


Then you claimed Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unbelief because (of all reasons!) your pastor 40 years ago told you this. I presented some actual reasons for my understanding of the issue that I arrived at through careful study and thought.

I will pray God will give you the insight and the knowledge to understand what is written in the Bible.

At this point you are completely out of outside of scripture you continually trying to prove your Will.
You are quoting scripture to way you want to read it not the way it is written.

The next thing you'll say is the Bible has errors in it The Bible isn't the true word of God it. When you're are taking communion the real presence of the body and blood of Christ isn’t there. Jesus’s wasn’t born of a Virgin. And that Christ never performed any miracles. Never rose from the dead.

You are misleading people and that is a dangerous place to be

The only way to the Father is through the SON

[Ickisrulz]

Is there a reason why I have attempted to offer corrections?


The Bible tells Christians to pray constantly letting God know what we need. Jesus told us to pray we are “not led into temptation but delivered from evil.” The early Christians prayed for those who were being persecuted; even that they be released from jail. To say we should not ask God for these things (because adversity builds character and faith) not only contradicts Scripture but also gives people the wrong idea about God. God loves us and doesn’t want us to needlessly suffer. Sometimes we just need to ask for deliverance and God’s hand will be moved. If we feel that we are pleasing God by not asking, we have lost something. How many things does God do because of prayer?


The idea that all sins are the same severity in God’s eye makes it seem like he is indifferent toward our suffering at the hands of others. Every time we injure someone God sees the pain and takes note. There will be a reckoning day and there will be punishments that fit the offense for those not covered by Jesus. This is because God is fair, just and loving.


There has been more than one Christian who lost sleep worrying whether or not they some how committed the “unpardonable sin.” To claim this offense is merely unbelief just adds fuel to the fire unnecessarily and causes suffering. We should understand what this sin is or more importantly what it is not.

[Ickisrulz]

I will pray God will give you the insight and the knowledge to understand what is written in the Bible.

At this point you are completely out of outside of scripture you continually trying to prove your Will.
You are quoting scripture to way you want to read it not the way it is written.

The next thing you'll say is the Bible has errors in it The Bible isn't the true word of God it. When you're are taking communion the real presence of the body and blood of Christ isn’t there. Jesus’s wasn’t born of a Virgin. And that Christ never performed any miracles. Never rose from the dead.

You are misleading people and that is a dangerous place to be

The only way to the Father is through the SON

Seriously? Am I in the Twilight Zone here? Now you think I am a heretic?

Are you honestly saying that Jesus didn't tell us to pray "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil?" What in the world do you think he meant if it was not to go through bad things?

Does your Bible not record that Jesus told Pilate the one betrayed him had the greater sin? What do you think Jesus meant by this?

[DCP]

Seriously? Am I in the Twilight Zone here? Now you think I am a heretic?

Are you honestly saying that Jesus didn't tell us to pray "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil?" What in the world do you think he meant if it was not to go through bad things?

Does your Bible not record that Jesus told Pilate the one betrayed him had the greater sin? What do you think Jesus meant by this?

I pray this will help
http://cornerstonethefoundation.blogspot.com/2010/04/do-you-trust-god.html

Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.’ James 1:2-4

[Ickisrulz]

I pray this will help
http://cornerstonethefoundation.blogspot.com/2010/04/do-you-trust-god.html

So, no answer to my questions. You simply accuse me of leading people astray and twisting the Bible without showing me how you think I did it (other than disagreeing with you). And now you have diagnosed me as being anxious and depressed. Outstanding!

Yep, Twilight Zone.

[DCP]

So, no answer to my questions. You simply accuse me of leading people astray and twisting the Bible without showing me how you think I did it (other than disagreeing with you). And now you have diagnosed me as being anxious and depressed. Outstanding!

Yep, Twilight Zone.

Brother did you read it

[Ickisrulz]

God will not remove every trial from us for whatever reason and I wouldn't expect this. Life has lots of pain and trouble. But he still wants us to pray for this. We can of course be sure that when we go through various troubles that God will use them for our good. But again, we are told to pray "deliver us from evil."

I think I am going to move on from this discussion with you.