If it aint broke dont fix it.

[carpetman]

No posts on the hunting board? Hmmmm better get some flames going. This place is dead. For varmint hunting,I have had excellent results with cast bullets. Cant say enough about them. For big game hunting,my results were dismal. Only tried it once. I was shooting the 95 grain RCBS bulllet around 2900 fps in my .243. Accuracy was very good. That 2900 was actually faster than I shoot jacketed bullets. So gave it a try on a spike buck. My grandson shot it first and the spike ran a few yards and stopped where I had the better shot. I really seriously doubt my grandson missed. I believe my shot should have been right where I wanted it. The spike ran off. We went to where the spike was standing at first shot. Not a drop of blood. We went from that spot to where standing when I shot. Still no blood. We followed his tracks from there to a main trail. The main trail had so many tracks,could not ascertain whether he turned left or right or possibly went straight. A search of trails in all directions not a drop of blood found. I have been told many times that I should have been using a larger cal heavy slow moving bullet. I did decide if I ever hunted with cast bullets again,it would be with a much larger bore. Then I read Bullshopjr's story of the moose that was shot,i think 5 times---3 with .50 Alaskan and twice .35 Rem. I too have hunted moose and one jacketed 30-06 worked. I think even a .243 with jacketed bullets would more humanely kill a moose. All kinds of ideas have been presented to get performance out of cast bullets. Hollow points,using a softer nose alloy,placing a piece of paper in the nose of the bullet so it will open up. Certainly not saying cast bullets cant be used for hunting. Been done for well over a century,so doing so is not a first. In my books,jacketed bullets do it better,so that's what I use. If it aint broke dont fix it.

[Scrounger]

What do you consider varmints? Do they have to have a long tail and say "Mew"?

[JDL]

I have had very good results on game and varmints with cast but, I use a minimun of .30 cal. I do agree that jacketed gets the job done with minimal fuss and bother, but the only deer I have lost has been with one of these. I have used a .45/70 for elk, using 510 grain paper patched boolits and they were extremely effective, only requiring 1 shot per customer, and none moved over 20 to 40 yards. I toyed with the idea of using my .358 with cast but, it's my belief that a lesser caliber, than .45/70, using cast, may be entertaining disaster when use on game that has the stamina for living as elk. However, I'm not enjoying being punched around as much as when I was younger and my .45/70 is getting heavier, so this year I'm prepairing to use my Mannlicher-Schoenauer in '06 for elk with 180 grain jacketed bullets.
Lots of time between now and then and I have been known to change my mind, so we'll see.-JDL

[waksupi]

JDL - I shot an elk last fall with the .358 Win., using the Bator heavys. I shot it twice, and damage was substantial. Full penetration. The shot through the lungs made a hole about 6 inches across, and the hit in the liver made about an 8 inch hole. Look back on the Aimoo board, to this heading

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=514616&CategoryID=370087&ThreadID= 1746258&tolast=yes#bottom

There are autopsy pictures there.

[Bass Ackward]

Hunting with cast is no different than hunting with jacketed. The two advantages of jacketed are velocity if the cartridge is capable of producing it and simplicity.

Clearly, the jacketed is load and go. If you try to ask a jacketed bullet to do more than it is capable of, it fails. If you select a jacketed solid, it acts like a hard cast. With cast though, you do have to experiment. I refuse to blindly accept it on game, so I experiment with wet news print and milk jugs filled with water. And .... I do the same thing when using a jacketed bullet for the first time that I am unfamiliar with. Since most game that is wounded and lost in this area of the country occurs with jacketed bullets, I don't mind my results with cast.

Life is pretty simple really. Some people want to experiment with cast and accept the extra work to get performance on game. Some don't. Some guys will tell you shooting cast at all is a joke when you buy a HV caliber. Some guys say that factory ammunition is better than you can reload these days. Why shoot a standard caliber when Magnums clearly out perform? Everything in this sport is opinion. It's just which one you subscribe to.

[carpetman]

Bass Ackwards--You bring up some good points. I do consider the one that more game lost to jacketed bullets than to cast is like the stat that more Texans killed in pickup wrecks than in Mercedes wrecks.

[Scrounger]

Bass Ackwards--You bring up some good points. I do consider the one that more game lost to jacketed bullets than to cast is like the stat that more Texans killed in pickup wrecks than in Mercedes wrecks.
Also more Texans killed in sheep pens than bordellos... To wit, here's you a good avatar, Carpetman.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Scrounger/images.jpg

[carpetman]

Scrounger---Afterall bordellos not legal here but sheep pens are----same same as the pickup/Mercedes. Now in Waksupi country the death rate in sheep pens is large enough to be a concern.

[Scrounger]

Then why is that sheep smiling and singing,"Off we go, into the wild blue yonder..."?

[Bass Ackward]

Bass Ackwards--You bring up some good points. I do consider the one that more game lost to jacketed bullets than to cast is like the stat that more Texans killed in pickup wrecks than in Mercedes wrecks.

Ray,

I think you misinterpreted. I was not playing numbers. You mentioned your moose escapade with one 180 grain from a 30-06. But my cousin shot one three times in vitals last fall with a 300 SAUM and 180 Barnes X. It had to be put down by the guide. So we can all find examples to site our position. The point is that we shouldn't have to.

What I was saying is that game is wounded and lost all the time. Arrows, jacketed, cast, automobiles. The highest numbers ARE probably by jacketed bullets.

So if my cast use doesn't contribute to these statistics, then "I" am satisfied to continue using them. And to teach others what has worked for me. If I thought cast was or couldn't be humane, trust me, I'd quit too.

[waksupi]

I've not heard much good about the Barnes. A friend took them to Africa last summer, and shot fourteen head of game, and he was not at all impressed with either accuracy, or performance.

Curiously enough, there is a better survival rate with animals wounded by arrows, than by any other method. The cuts, being with a surgically sharp blade, tend to heal well, and quickly, as opposed to wounds made by a bullet that disrupts so much tissue.

[carpetman]

Bass Akwards--We are on the same page. I have often posted you don't know until you pull the trigger. The best example I can think of for that is a comparison of a deer I shot with 30-06 and one my grandson shot with .222. Both hit about same spot,mine was a yearling buck and grandsons was a doe--both about same size. How the one I shot ever got to it's feet is a mystery. The thing did stagger a good distance before dropping. The .222 shot one ran full blast a much shorter distance and collapsed. No way am I saying that a .222 is a better deer gun than a 30-06,but on those two deer it performed better. If your own personal experience has been that more got away using jacketed vs cast, I would say an unusual occurence. If you mean more get away by all hunters using jacketed vs cast,I stick to my Mercedes/pickup comparison. For sure you read something into my post not stated. I use 150 grain bullets in my 30-06,even on moose. Many disagree with that choice. My wife used that combo on her moose too.

[44man]

I think because most seasons are closed, this site might not get much action.
As far as hunting deer with cast, it is all I will use out of my revolvers and results are spectacular. But I use LBT style boolits with a large flat meplat as that is what is needed. They are hard and do not expand or stop in any animal. I would not use a small caliber rifle with cast unless the nose was cast soft to expand. Over the years when I archery hunted in PA, I must have killed 10 deer with 22 bullets healed up on the ribcage where they went through the lungs and stopped. Even though a hard cast in a caliber like the .243 is fast and goes all the way through, the damage would be minimal. Kind of like poking a knitting needle through them. Even if there was no point at all and the small boolit was just a cylinder, flat on the end, it is still not big enough.
Of course the wrong jacketed bullet is just as bad. I helped a man drag out a very small buck that had six holes in the chest I could cover with my hand. Each time he shot, it would fall, get up and run. He tracked it in the snow and kept shooting and tracking until the sixth shot kept it down. He was using the old WW 30-06 Silvertips that were too tough for deer.
Then on the other hand, guys around here use magnum rifles with too explosive of a bullet and deer get away because the massive wounds have torn edges and they seal up stopping the blood trail. Every season I have to help find a few and some we never find until much later. They all died but were never put in the freezer. One 11 point we did find quit bleeding in 100 yd's and went a mile. It was shot in the ham and the hole was big enough to stick your whole head in. The guy tries to shoot through brush combined with fear of the recoil and messes up quite a few deer. He will not accept any advice. I wish he would stay home.
I have shot deer with a Marlin .44 levergun and hard cast with fantastic results. The deer just pitched to the ground when hit. Even the deer I shot with the Ruger cap and ball with a round ball only made 10 feet.
The whole secret with cast is the diameter, weight and shape, not speed. Think shotgun slug instead of needles.
Another good thing about the boolits I use is that you can eat right to the hole after removing any hair. No mangled, bloodshot meat.
The last deer I used a rifle on was shot on a dead run at 210 yd's. I used a .280 with the 139 gr. Hornady. I hit it right behind the shoulder. It took an entire day to clean it. It was bloodshot from the back of the head to the tail. No more rifles for me!

[Ron.D]

This is somewhat of a timely discussion with me right now. I've only shot one animal with a cast boolit, a black bear, with a 43 mauser. Death was immediate. I currently cast for a .358 with a 16" twist, the 43 mauser, and various .308's and 311's, which I don't hunt with. I really feel the need to step up in caliber with cast, however I believe, the proper combination, should work on anything, out to 200 yrds. The question I'm wrestling with and I guess is the $64,000 question, is, which combination. I'd like something good to 200 yds, adequate for anything, up to and including moose, with a decent BC and doesn't hurt me quite as much as the game. I have a Husqvarna that could become a 375-06 imp or a P14 that could become a 405 Win. I guess the perameters that interest me the most are 2000'/s a BC of .300 and a weight of approx 280-320 grs. I don't want anything marginally adequate. I wish Marlin made their 1895 in 40-65 Win. I'm not sure that I need a 45-70 or anything that big, to accomplish the job. Any thoughts? Thanks Ron.D

[JDL]

Ron,
I have taken various size animals from coyotes through elk with cast from a .45/70 and can tell you that it just plain works, every time. I personally think it is the superior lead chunker for hunting, period! But,being somewhat a rifle ****,I'm compelled to use different ones in various calibers. I have used .30 cal. with cast on deer and have never found it wanting, even to around 200 yards,which is for me, looong range.
Never shot a moose but, going on hearsay, I'm told they are easier to put down than elk. Using cast for them, I'd be hesitant to use anything smaller than a .358 and the .375'06 sounds like the berries. Naturally, the .45/70 will work here too and, if used enough to be vary familar with, can be used to 200 yards, if needed.
I'm going to begin experimenting with softening the nose of Lyman's
358318,in both hollowpointed and solid form, to see if I can get them to expand and if successful, will likely use my .358 for elk this year.-JDL

[StarMetal]

About animals go down good one time and another they run off. Jim Carmichaels dug into this. A moose was shot, through the heart, broadside shot, with a 338mag jacketed bullets. Went down like the hand of Thor hit him. Another moose hit the exact same way, same gun and type of bullet, ran off. They got some animal anotomny doctors in on this. What they come up with is when the bullet hit the heart, what cycle was the heart in, was it the discharge cycle or the nondischarge cycle? A bullet has alot of hydrualic shock when it hits. They found the first mooses brain was destroyed with massive hemmoraging, even though it wasn't hit there. The second mooses brain looked normal. They concluded the first moose was hit in the heart when the heart was in it's pressure cycle and the bullet shock increased the blood pressure to where it caused the brain to hemmorage. The second moose they figured that the heart wasn't in the pressure cycle. Does this apply to if the animal is hit in other places then the heart? That they didn't say, and that I do not know, but the heart one makes sense.

I shot a deer in Ohio one season using a Model 94 Win in 45 LC . I was using a RCBS 255 gr SWC loaded to give me a velocity of 1600 fps. The alloy was just WW not tempered. It was small button buck facing me at about 35 yards. I shot in dead center in the chest. The bullet almost made a straight line through the deer, but it was facing me at just a slight angle, so the bullet come out the rear of his left ham. Thus the bullet traveled through his entire body and no doubt through the lungs. It was alittle too high for the heart. Anyways it took me hours to find him as there was no blood trail. I found him over 300 yards away. I'm convinced that if I would have used a jacketed soft point that he wouldn't have gone that far. I quit using that rifle for hunting with cast bullets. I now only use my 45-70 with cast for hunting. All the deer that I shot with it go down pretty fast.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

This is somewhat of a timely discussion with me right now.

I guess the perameters that interest me the most are 2000'/s a BC of .300 and a weight of approx 280-320 grs. I don't want anything marginally adequate.

I'd like something good to 200 yds, adequate for anything, up to and including moose, with a decent BC and doesn't hurt me quite as much as the game.


Any thoughts? Thanks Ron.D

Ron,

Boy you lay out a tough set of criteria. That's why I wanted to think about it before I responded.

Clearly, you pass the peak of BC when you leave 8MM according to the experts. But I think that you make a mistake in assuming weight to be your only variable in hunting. You can do the same thing with a slightly harder 250 grain bullet that you can with a 280 - 300 grainer. And the longer you make the bullet, the more force that pressure puts on the base from inertia which demands that you harden it anyway. Or go to a larger case capacity to still use slower powders to launch softly. This can get involved and then in the end strictly come down to opinion.

I would say that to get the velocity level you want with the bullet weight you list, you can go from anywhere between 35 and 375 bore diameters and still not take unbearable punishment. That brings us to case design as the final discriminator. IF you want 2000 fps with that bullet weight and still be aerodynamic, you have one factory standard caliber to choose from. 358 Norma Magnum. Fairly good neck length, and plenty of case capacity for low pressure cast launching. You can stabilize the weight with a 14 twist and add a 26" tube and maybe 2200 - 2300 isn't out of the question.

Me, I'll just stick with my lowly Whelen and harden my 265 grain slug if I need a little more velocity or penetration.

[Bass Ackward]

I shot a deer in Ohio one season using a Model 94 Win in 45 LC . I was using a RCBS 255 gr SWC loaded to give me a velocity of 1600 fps. The alloy was just WW not tempered.

I found him over 300 yards away. I'm convinced that if I would have used a jacketed soft point that he wouldn't have gone that far.

I quit using that rifle for hunting with cast bullets. I now only use my 45-70 with cast for hunting. All the deer that I shot with it go down pretty fast.

Joe

Joe,

You devil you! I'll bet you thought you got away with this didn't you? Took this dumb yankee a day or two to mull this over because I thought it was a joke.

Can you please tell me what is the difference between a .454 diameter bullet going 1600 fps and a .457 bullet going 1600 fps that gives you that much more confidence? I didn't mention bullet weight because you penetrated cleanly with only the 255 grainer. Maybe Ohio deer are biased against the 45 Colt?

Now the comment about the jacketed soft point I can understand. I shot a PA spike from the same circumstances when I was 18 with a 139 gr Hornady from a 7MM Ack IMP going 3000 fps. Everything the same except he was closer to 50 yards. Same thing. No flintch, and no other sign of a hit. He stood and looked at me for what seemed forever as I tried to chamber another round. Tough to do at 50 yards when he is looking right at you and the fever has you something fierce.

Then he turned and strode up over the hill and disappeared. I looked where he stood, no blood. I went up over the hill which opened to open pasture that the neighbor ran cattle on and I looked around. Down about 300 yards in the run was the same deer .... feeding with the cattle.

I watched for about 5 minutes because he was amongst the herd. He grazed to the left and was almost out when he turned and started feeding back through. I couldn't believe this. Maybe 20 minutes have elapsed since the shot. As he almost left the front of the heard, he slipped and fell. And he couldn't get back up. He struggled while I moved down the hill because I still couldn't shoot. I finished him off with a neck shot at 3 feet after I scattered the cattle. A full 35 minutes since the shot. Go soft points! And I am sure somebody still buys Hornady 139 spire points because they still sell em. Just not to me.

I prefer soft cast. You could shoot 10 or even 8 BHN at 1600 fps without leading at those velocities. And your deer probably would have reacted differently. You hit no bone at all. Same with me above. Kinda like the story of the guy with a knife sticking out of his temple that drove to the hospital.

I think I still have some of those 139 grainers left around. 7MM AI is in the back of the safe too. Gets oiled every year. Pretty gun too. Left hand Husavarna, AAA grade, exibition fancy, curly western, Maple. Last shot in 1980 I believe.

[44man]

I have to agree that it was where the boolit went through the deer that caused the problem, not what it was shot with. I have shot several deer through and through with what I thought would be a deadly spot for a razor sharp arrow just to have them quit bleeding and get away. I refuse to take that angle shot any more. One was shot in the morning and I spotted the deer feeding in a field that night with a great big dried blood spot on it.
I knew a guy that shot a small doe 11 times with a 12 gauge shotgun and slugs before it quit. He had to track it all morning and keep shooting. I never seen so much hamburger in my life. I never had that problem with slugs and every deer went right down. But I really did see it happen so don't blame your .45's. I have taken a lot of deer with the .45 Colt and never lost one. It is just one of those things we can't predict. Deer can be awful tough at times. I have seen a lot of deer shot with awful powerful guns and all types of bullets, just clean get away. Some die but then again I see a lot of deer with bad limps in the spring.

[StarMetal]

Bass

I have a 7mm-08 Sako Mannlicher carbine. The only jacketed bullets I shoot out of it for deer hunting are the Hornday 139 gr. It's the most deadliest round for jacketed I've ever use on deer. Close, not so close, far, to very far...the rifle and that bullet put them down, in their tracks just about. Farthest I'd ever had one go was maybe 20 yards. I shot a big doe in PA once during doe season, that was running almost directly away from me across a large field. It was about 150 yards and I kneeled and put the crosshairs just about at her spine. Rifle sighted 1 inche high at 100 yards. The deer was just a tad at a slight angle. The bullet caught her up damn near in the spine about middle ways back on her back. It broke her back in two places and wiped out her chest cavity. She fell right there like right now. Personally I think the 7mm-08 and that 139 gr Hornady to be about the perfect deer combo.

I don't know what is it with the 45-70 but all the deer I shot with it and that cast RCBS 405 gr just go down real quick and I've shot quite a few. My best one was a 10 point that went like 250 lbs. Gotta love those Ohio big trophy bucks. I sure miss hunting them. By the way for you Ohio boys, I know there's no rifle allowed for deer in Ohio, but I owned my own farm. When I hunted off it I used the required shotgun with slugs or my BP rifle with a Maxi-Ball.

Joe

[Ron.D]

Thanks for the responses guys, and sorry to be so long getting back to you. Other than a few short logins, I've been away most of the time.
JDL. I absolutely agree the 45-70 would be a real thumper for sure. I also love the fact that since it's so much more than adequate, that there's a lot of room for fooling around. Almost any reasonable boolit weight, meplat, alloy and velocity would work. In fact after pondering this for a while, I'm beginning to think, I may be asking too much, to do it all with one caliber. The game that I hunt every yr. is black bear and the thought of following a large one, that I'm pretty sure was well hit, but, last time I saw it, it was doing 30 m.p.h. into the thick dark stuff, just as dark is starting to close in, isn't something I look forward to repeating on a regular basis.
BASS ACKWARDS. I would agrre that I may be overemphasizing the weight. It's really there primarily to help with BC. My .358 has a 16" twist and short barrel, if I had a 14" twist and a little longer barrel, I may not be still searching for something bigger. I had Dan @ MM cut me a soft nose mold @ 234 grs. with a 60% meplat, that looks very impressive in water jug tests, but I haven't shot anything with it yet. I can get it a little over 1900'/s before leading starts. Anyway, I think I may simplify things in the short term if I buy a 45-70 off of the rack and put a rebuild into the future. Ron.D

[drinks]

Ron;
I recently bought a NEF handi-rifle in .45-70, after using a .44-40 for 56 years.
Have a very nice 220 gc doing 1600 with IMR 4227,this is for attacking beer cans and sabre toothed rabbits, a 320gc doing 1400 with almost no recoil, a 405 gc doing 1450, does talk back some, and a 515 3R gc which I have tried up to 1600, this one , you have no doubt about when it goes off, a friend has his Buffalo Classic doing 1780 with the 515 gc, I am not that brave yet, partly because his rifle has 10" more barrel and 2.5 lbs more weight.
The downrange ballistics are some thing else, 0 at 150yd, is about 31" low at 300 , is still doing 1340fps with 2050 lb.
Hope to try mine on some hogs this year, 14-1500fps should be enough at the 30-60 yd usual range around here.
Don

[Bass Ackward]

Bass

I have a 7mm-08 Sako Mannlicher carbine. The only jacketed bullets I shoot out of it for deer hunting are the Hornday 139 gr. It's the most deadliest round for jacketed I've ever use on deer.

I don't know what is it with the 45-70 but all the deer I shot with it and that cast RCBS 405 gr just go down real quick and I've shot quite a few.

Joe


Joe,

I know you do. And the 7mm-08 is close enough that I just thought I would make a point. No impuning of the 45-70 was intended, just to show that even experienced people get lulled into a "works everytime" or "isn't worth a darn" modes. That was the only deer I ever shot with that gun and .... even though I now it was an unfair test, .... I have no desire totry it again. Funny huh?

44Man,

<<I have seen a lot of deer shot with awful powerful guns and all types of bullets, just clean get away.>>

I think we all have. It's why they sell so many different things to so many different people. And it always fasinates me when someone else arrives at, and supports a different conclusion using the same setup or conditions.

The main thing is to give someone a method for "them" to test what they are doing so they get confidence. Whether that is cast, or jacketed, or a 45 Colt, or a 243 so that they don't just don't arrive at a false conclusion and turn away from something altogether. I did it and I know better.

That is the biggest failure for guys using cast. So I recommend testing. I still test today.

[44man]

StarMetal, OH you cheat!!! I am from Ohio and live near Harpers Ferry now since I had to transfer from Cle Hopkins to Dulles. Since retired.
Of course, if I would have had a farm in Ohio, I would do the same thing. After all, the Amish in Ohio all used rifles.
I dearly miss the huge Ohio deer, but we have a tremendous amount of nice deer here and I get 5 to 7 a year depending on how many neighbors want meat. I keep two for myself, mostly young ones or does. I have taken some 200# does but the antlers on the bucks are not big.
Biggest deer I ever seen in Ohio was over 400# with 18 points near Salt Fork Lake. No I didn't get a shot but 2 other guys missed him. He waddled like a cow instead of running. The size and depth of his tracks in the winter wheat was amazing. Like an elk.

[StarMetal]

44man

Yest he deer are really nice in ohio. The biggest one I shot was a 10 pt buck what went about 250 on the hoof. I shot him with my 1886 Browning 45-70 with a WW RCBS 405 gr cast bullet at about 75 yards with receiver sights. The load was a certain amount of H4895 that I won't mention here as it's hot for older weaker firearms. I will say it gives me 1850 fps which beats my shoulder pretty good. I may reduce the load some as that much fps aren't really needed. Farther shot I made with that rifle was little over 200 yards on a big doe that was running pretty fast. Standing off hand too. I could never do that shot again in a million years.

I wasn't aware the Amish used rifles. So the state I reckon leaves them alone?

Joe

[carpetman]

44Man---the deer weighed over 400 pounds. Two guys missed him. How did you know his weight? I had a bass on the line that weighed 19 pounds 3.27 oz but he got away.

[waksupi]

Carpetman, it is indeed fortuitous that there are scales on the fishs' back, so you can tell how much they weigh. Good thing it wasn't a catfish.

Just returned from a varmint shoot in Canuckistan. My definition of wind has been re-defined. Only prone shots were practical, and the wind was still moving you sideways at the rate of about six inches per second. And I stuck a hand on a prickly pear right at the start of Fridays shooting. That gave me something to do between shots.

[BruceB]

My hunting dilemma is still nagging at me a bit. With an elk/white-tail hunt in Alberta coming up this fall, I've already decided that the primary elk rifle will be my new-for-the-trip left-handed Savage 116 in .338, using Nosler Partitions.

The interesting choice will be the second rifle, which may get used on the deer. Alberta white-tails can be enormous, like well into the 400-pound class. Two Boone and Crockett "book" bucks came out of our immediate hunting area just last fall.

Without any cast-boolit experience on game except with handguns, I've still formed an opinion that when using my home-built rifle bullets I'm stepping back about a century as to HOW to get "effectiveness".

As I see it, the limitations are inter-related, and involve three factors:

1. The over-riding responsibility for a clean kill requires me to use an alloy which WILL expand, and no two ways about it.

2. The relatively-soft alloy needed for certain expansion limits my velocity to some degree, and I'm thinking about 2000fps here.

3. The above two factors will limit both flatness of trajectory to a considerable degree, and also the available horsepower.

Therefore, my route to effectiveness (in my own fevered mind, anyways) lies in using rounds much like great-grand-dad used in 1890....a BIG soft boolit at moderate speed. Fortunately, I have several fine candidate rifles, namely a .404, a .416 Rigby, and my beloved .45-70 Shiloh Sharps.

I tend to discount the Sharps mostly on account of its target-type Axtell sights...tiny aperture in the 1500-yard tang rear sight, and spirit-level interchangeble-element front sight. These are not the greatest for fast acquisition or snap shots. I do have several primo hunting-design .45 moulds on hand, though...

The other two rifles.....I couldn't ask for much better. The Ruger Rigby has never been hunting, but I have NO doubt that 365 @ 2000-plus will do the job. My only question is if it will be sufficiently accurate with soft boolits out to maybe 200 yards. The .404 is in exactly the same range for boolit weight and speed.

I firmly believe that our "normal" hunting calibers, in the .25-.33 caliber ranges and designed for jacketed bullets, are a good bit less effective when used with cast loads, while the larger cartridges of .35-plus diameter do lend themselves to efficient big-game loads IF alloy, bullet design and velocity are properly taken into account. There is a range-reduction factor, too, but consider that the grand ol' .30-30 is perfectly useable to 200 yards with starting speeds around 2000 fps. 200 yards will suit me just fine, thanks.

I have got to get started with a testing program on these rifles. If any of them deliver, say, 4" to 6" groups of three with soft bullets at 200 yards, I'd be content to take the load hunting. The Sharps will almost certainly do this with ease by substituting bullet weight for speed, but the other rounds might be tougher. We'll see.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Also more Texans killed in sheep pens than bordellos... To wit, here's you a good avatar, Carpetman.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Scrounger/images.jpg


Then why is that sheep smiling and singing,"Off we go, into the wild blue yonder..."?
'
Us aussies tease our kiwi (New Zealander) neighbours all the time about sheep. They are believed to 'cliff' sheep in fiord country, take the sheep to the edge of the cliff and it will push back, all sorts of unsavoury taunts. All's fair in love, war, and trying to get in front of kiwis. Now there is the big gum boots they always wear.

[44man]

Carpetman, I aquired a picture from a store on the next road. I showed it to the game biologist and he gave me the estimate. I measured the hoof prints on firm ground and they measured 5 inches from back of hoof to tip of toes.
There was also an 18 point killed by a truck south of Columbus that dressed 400 pounds. No, I am not making this up, Those deer were BIIIIG!
Sneaking the corn fields around and in Salt Fork, I measured many, many tracks between 4 and 5 inches. Around here. 2" is good, 3" is very good.

[carpetman]

44Man---You were supposed to ask how I knew the weight of the bass---but Waksupi already told you because I saw it scales. You are talking about some HUGE deer.

[billw]

I have used 30 cal, but prefer 25 cal at hi-vel. The way I do it is as effective as a Nosler Partition. Alloy is WW:Pb at 1:1 or 1:2 ratio and after sizing and gascheck, heat treat at 450F for 45 min and quench quickly in tap water, age 24-72 hrs. Then anneal the nose with base in water using a butane/propane torch on the nose for a few seconds. Don't melt the nose. I anneal one bullet at a time using a steel bottle cap for the water. A drop of water on a flat nose bullet will melt off when the anneal is done. Then verify the annealed nose with a bhn tool if the bullet is a flat nose; otherwise cut the nose and body of a sample with side cutters to test for hardness. The goal is 24 bhn on the base and 8 bhn on the nose. Lube and shoot at max. MV for the cartridge. I use 42 gr AA3100 in my 250 Sav and 85-95 gr bullet for 2775 MV. The soft nose will flatten quickly on the deer skin, fragments will penetrate well, and the shank of the bullet will travel straight like a WC bullet and will exit, even the long way. These are effective.

[Ron.D]

waksupi. That's very impressive performance on the elk. Could you tell me what BHN you were using and the velocity you're getting with your .358. I have both the Bator light and heavy. The heavy won't stabilize in my .358's 16" twist. The light will, however work has prevented as much load developement as I'd like. What's that saying about "if you're too busy to hunt, you're too busy". Thanks, Ron.D

[waksupi]

waksupi. That's very impressive performance on the elk. Could you tell me what BHN you were using and the velocity you're getting with your .358. I have both the Bator light and heavy. The heavy won't stabilize in my .358's 16" twist. The light will, however work has prevented as much load developement as I'd like. What's that saying about "if you're too busy to hunt, you're too busy". Thanks, Ron.D

Ron, this is with quenched bullets, dropped directly from the mold. I can't really give you a Brinell reading, as I use a Cabin Tree tester, and never tried to make a corresponding table for it. I think one came with it, but is no doubt buried deep within my meticulous filing system. Which means I may well never see it again. Hardness is probably around 22-24 I would imagine, since they age for quite awhile before getting shot up.
Velocity of the load averages right around 2080 fps I seem to recall. This is with a Douglas 1-12 twist barrel.