What To Try Next For 9mm Accuracy

[ArrowJ]

I took sixteen rounds to the range...all I had.

I shot from ~25 feet. My group was about six inches and all over the place. Much of this is me as factory rounds are about three inches, but a tighter pattern. I am shooting for the first time in years. I am not certain, but I think there may have been some key holing, but not every round.

127 gr Lee 356-125 RN
4.5 gr Ramshot Silhouette
1.086 COL

The bullets came out powder coated at .359-.360 and my barrel is .354 so I ran them through a Lee .356 sizer die, but they came out .355

There was no leading and no powder coat residue, but there was a yellow residue in the chamber and barrel that I believe was powder residue that wiped out with a single pass of a dry patch.

After using The Internets I saw try larger bullet, more powder, and reduce crimp.

My plan is to try another grain of powder first as that is the easiest along with checking my crimp which did not seem over done and was not swaging my bullets.

I am also going to try my Aloxed bullets that are closer to .356 unsized. I would have to open up my sizing die to size my powder coated bullets larger than .355.

What are your thoughts?

I cannot try anything until my press gets back from Redding, but I want to have a plan.

[runfiverun]

well you have 2 things you can try right now and they will answer some of your questions.
1 is the larger diameter.
2 is the powder amount.

I'm thinking a combination of the 2 will get you better groups.
I size 358 for my 9m's and it works fine in all 5 of them.

[Schrag4]

I don't know where in the range 4.5 gr lands for that powder but I've seen the high end shoot better than the low end with other powders. It would be easy/inexpensive to try that first.

I'd also point out that I've had recipes that I thought were mediocre in the accuracy department, and then a year later I found that they actually shot pretty well. I chalk that up to some combination of me having a poor shooting day a year earlier, or (more likely) a year's worth of shooting has simply made me a better shot.

You mentioned this is your first time shooting in years. Did you try factory alongside your ammo this time out? Or is your half-group-size from factory ammo just your experience from years ago? If you did shoot both the same day, which did you shoot first? Is it possible you either settled down and started shooting better after you were through your ammo, or that you started to mentally fatigue after shooting the factory ammo? Shooting is so much mental and so little physical that it could be that your mind was distracted while you were shooting your ammo.

[dverna]

Accuracy testing should be done off a rest. I admit that for plinking ammo I shoot groups handheld and if the load shoots into 3" at 15 yards I call it good enough.

Good advice above wrt shooting some factory ammunition. Also agree that a bigger diameter bullet should help. That is the first thing I would do and also pull some bullets to confirm they are not being swaged during seating.

[ArrowJ]

Two people today suggested a rest. Good idea. I did shoot factory ammo about a week or so ago, and some plated reloads. I did better with both, but it certainly could have been me. I will try a hotter load and then a bigger bullet as that will require tweaking of my sizing die or using Alox instead of powder coat. This sounds like a good place to start. Unfortunately I had to send my press back to Redding for repairs so it all has to wait, but I will start there when it gets back. Thanks!

[runfiverun]

1 press?
are you new :kidding:

[ArrowJ]

Just started. Now I realize I certainly need at least two :)

[dverna]

Ok. I need to ask. How do you break a press?

[DerekP Houston]

Ok. I need to ask. How do you break a press?

Won't lie I'm a bit curious too ;).

[ArrowJ]

When I first got the press the handle would not stay tight. Chris (from Redding) suggested a lock washer. Not ideal, but it did the trick.

After a sizing a few thousand 9mm cases the linkage got loose and developed marks in the linkage where the clips hold them onto the press. I tightened it until it was almost as tight as new, but I assumed some loosening would happen.

Then it started tightening on it own after several hundred more cases until I had to loosen it again. Eventually it became loose again and had to be tightened.

Chris sent new linkage as I was trying to avoid sending the press in. Before I had a chance to put the new linkage on I bought a Lee push through sizer and noticed the stem was rubbing the die when I pushed it in. Naturally I thought it was a crappy Lee die. Then I started priming cases and noticed the primers were getting hung up on the case occasionally which they did not do when I loaded 250 9mm rounds when I first got the press. I started crimping with my Redding die and noticed it was biting the brass on the case in the same place as the Lee die was rubbing (the front of the press).

I raised the ram and noticed that it moves forward and back almost describing a circle at the top of the stroke.

At that point I decided to send it in. Chris has been helpful. It is frustrating as I spent a big portion of my budget on it assuming I would have the same experience others have had, but these things happen. I waited until the press was on sale and offered with free shipping, and I just lost that savings paying to ship it back which is also frustrating. I am sure they will make it better.

[fredj338]

You didn't say what gun but if anything I owned shot 3" groups at 25feet I would sell it, much less 6"!!
Test your ammo off the bench if it's been awhile since you have been shooting. My Springfield 1911/9mm will group right at 2" offhand at 75 feet with my lead bullets sized 0.356", lubed or HT or PC coated. My Glocks will almost do that.
I think the 0.355" bullet is the culprit, but you can play with powder charges or diff powders. I had a BHP that would NOT group 125gr lead bullet loaded over W231. I tried all kinds of powder charges & OAL, but switching to Unique cut my groups in half.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/1911-9mm%20group_zpsn4awxqun.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/1911-9mm%20group_zpsn4awxqun.jpg.html)

[ArrowJ]

It is a Springfield Armory XD Mod 2 sub compact. The group size is almost certainly a result of my skill as it was large with factory ammo and plated too...just not as large. I have shot very little, but am going to a) use a rest next time, and b) practice more. I was never a great shot, but could do better than that. You are probably right about the bullet size. I will most likely be playing with that and the powder.

[sigep1764]

First thing i would do is check for swaged boolit. Pull a seated and crimped boolit and check the diameter, is it the same as an unloaded round? 1.086 is kinda short depending on the boolit. Do the plunk test to see what is the longest you can load it.

[runfiverun]

well I broke one swaging with it. [rcbs r-chucker]
the next I merely ripped out the 4" lag bolts holding it in the 4x4's and busted the flat part of the frame. [rcbs JR]
okay that one was Littlegirl.
I mashed the ram almost flat on a third [hornady]

[ArrowJ]

First thing i would do is check for swaged boolit. Pull a seated and crimped boolit and check the diameter, is it the same as an unloaded round? 1.086 is kinda short depending on the boolit. Do the plunk test to see what is the longest you can load it.


I pulled one and it was not swaging. I got that COL with the plunk test, but I could certainly try to tweak it a little. It was pretty close though. I might get another .001.

[sigep1764]

Will they chamber unsized as powdercoated?

[ArrowJ]

Will they chamber unsized as powdercoated?

That is a very good question. Assuming they will would you push a .360 bullet down a .354 barrel? I am happy to try it, I just thought that would be too much.

[dudel]

Have you chrongraphed any of your loads? Any idea of the ES? If you're not loading uniform ammo, you won't get uniform results.

What level accuracy are you expecting from a sub compact (3") barrel? I mean, your close to derringer country with that length barrel.

What factory ammo are you using?

How many rounds have you run through the gun? Some need a couple hundred rounds to break in.

A more reachable goal might be minute of belt buckle.

[6622729]

4.5gr is a very light load for Sillouette in 9mm. I use that powder at 4.7gr and it's still under 1000fps with Lee 125gr boolit. Ramshot says 4.5gr start to 5.0gr for 125gr lead cast boolits.

[ArrowJ]

Have you chrongraphed any of your loads? Any idea of the ES? If you're not loading uniform ammo, you won't get uniform results.

What level accuracy are you expecting from a sub compact (3") barrel? I mean, your close to derringer country with that length barrel.

What factory ammo are you using?

How many rounds have you run through the gun? Some need a couple hundred rounds to break in.

A more reachable goal might be minute of belt buckle.

Great points. I have only shot 116 rounds: 50 Federal ball, 50 plated 124 gr, and 16 powder coated 124(127). Of the first 100, the majority were in a 3.5 inch area. If I can get that (or even 4") I will be happy as the gun is for eventual CCW and 25 feet is the longest shot I would feel comfortable taking, and then maybe only in certain situations. Of course I have to qualify for CCW and I do not know what distance those targets are. I do not currently own a chronograph.

[dudel]

Great points. I have only shot 116 rounds: 50 Federal ball, 50 plated 124 gr, and 16 powder coated 124(127). Of the first 100, the majority were in a 3.5 inch area. If I can get that (or even 4") I will be happy as the gun is for eventual CCW and 25 feet is the longest shot I would feel comfortable taking, and then maybe only in certain situations. Of course I have to qualify for CCW and I do not know what distance those targets are. I do not currently own a chronograph.

I'd give to about 200 rounds to break it in. Don't forget to fire some of what ever you plan to carry to make sure they feed and function correctly.

3.5" inches is certainly doable. No worries about the Ill CCW test (http://illinoisgunpros.com/shooting-qualification-how-to-get-an-illinois-concealed-carry-permit-illinois-license-to-carry/)

================================================== =============================================
First of all, the target used is an NRA B27, which is a man-sized silhouette target. The target is two feet wide and four feet tall, so it is the size of a man.
The qualification requires that you fire 30 rounds at three different distances. Ten rounds each are fired at 5 yards, 7 yards and 10 yards. Out of the 30 rounds, you must achieve 70% accuracy, which means 21 rounds must hit the black portion of the target.
Since the shooting is not timed, and you can use whatever “concealable firearm” you are comfortable with, the shooting qualification is not difficult.
The only two ways that you can fail this class and / or the shooting qualification is if you are a horrible shot or do not demonstrate safe gun handling practices, in the opinion of the instructor.

[ArrowJ]

I am confident I am not that horrible...just bad, and I used to be less bad so I assume I can get better again :) Thanks!

[dudel]

I am confident I am not that horrible...just bad, and I used to be less bad so I assume I can get better again :) Thanks!

Right attitude. Practice, practice, practice.

[ArrowJ]

I use a 130gr PB RFN in 3 XDS9's, sized .357 with HiTek coating. I changed to WST from 231 - lets me shoot one handed for SD. I don't think your groove is .354! I don't use/don't like the extended mag. I rest the fore-end on a padded 4x4 for accuracy tests. It is one accurate compact even if I can't see the sights well. This is a 2 hand standing. Try the faster powder in yours.
166319

You may be right about my barrel as it is the first time I slugged a barrel, but those are the results I got the first time and after refining it on the advice of other members. I am not going to pay to have it done so I will have to just keep trying until I get the right size.


From my Why People Give Up On Casting thread:

I also slugged my barrel. The first attempt raised some questions as it came out .354. I refined my technique entering through the breech with a slug made from pure lead that measured .360. Again, my reading comes to .354 all the way around on the lands created by the groves of the barrel.

I measured using a Frankford Arsenal digital caliper. At that point, I measured a Hornady XTP 45 jacketed bullet with a nominal diameter of .451 and got .4505 and I am confident my barrel is indeed a little tight at .354.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=3605092

A picture of my slug:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160415/92466f28a4556793a6e640a70f791cff.jpg

[fredj338]

You can expect solid 3" groups from the XDcompact out to 75ft. They are very accurate guns. As always, have someone with better skill set shoot your gun. If it shoots for them, it's you not the ammo. Trying to test ammo for accuracy if you are struggling with shooting basics is a tough road. At this point, trying to chase ammo issues is almost pointless. Not being a dick, just realistic.

[ArrowJ]

You can expect solid 3" groups from the XDcompact out to 75ft. They are very accurate guns. As always, have someone with better skill set shoot your gun. If it shoots for them, it's you not the ammo. Trying to test ammo for accuracy if you are struggling with shooting basics is a tough road. At this point, trying to chase ammo issues is almost pointless. Not being a dick, just realistic.

Good advice. Not dickish at all :) I prefer kosher franks, but frank conversation over kosher. I just came up with that. It just barely works if you use the uncommon meaning of the words :)

[ArrowJ]

They had it and not bullseye or unique.

[runfiverun]

don't get distracted from what the target is telling you.

[ArrowJ]

don't get distracted from what the target is telling you.

That I am a stinky shot?

[tazman]

That I am a stinky shot?

Don't worry too much about being a stinky shot. Two years ago I got back into the handgun habit after about 15 years away. I knew in my head what I needed to do but my body was uninterested in doing it the way my mind told it to.
Today I am much better, still not great, but better. It only took 2 years and 25000 shots to improve. I shoot about 200-250 rounds per week working on basics. It just takes time and proper practice.

[country gent]

With the sub compacts shortened sight radious you really need to pay attention to sight alighnment a little bit off is alot in the short distance. A full size pistol with an 8-9 inch sight radious is much easier to shoot to to this. the small light sub compacts are harder for me to hold as steady as the full sized versions. Not saying the the subcompacts wont shoot well but that they are harder to shoot well. Recoil and muzzle blast are heavier, sight alighnment is more critical, trigger pull lighter gun combination makes a steady hold while pulling trigger harder. Put it on a rest of heavy sand bags and see what you can do with it. You might be surprised what it does from the rest. Use the rest and a folded towel under your elbows as they will take a beating. Work your loads up from the rest and then shoot from position to see what your doing.

[runfiverun]

bad shooting and large groups are two different things.
think about an evenly disbursed 4" group where there are 50 holes in that group.
now think about a tight cluster of holes in 2"s with 18 or so holes scattered at random in a 4" circle.
those are both 4" groups but which group was filled with flyers and which group was more consistent.
I'd investigate the 2" cluster group for lube development or ignition characteristics.
I'd investigate the trigger pull, the barrel bushing, and maybe my eyesight for the other one.
it however is more consistent, just larger.

[paul edward]

Powders that have worked for me in the 9x19 include: Bullseye, Unique, Win-231 (and it's twin HP-38), Win-630 (discontinued) and, more recently, PowerPistol. Tried HS-6 without success. These were used in pistols with 4.7 to 4.9 inch barrels.

For a compact with a shorter barrel, you might try the faster powders like Bullseye and Win-231. Ramshot, Norma and other firms offer fast pistol and shotgun powders, but I have no experience with them.

One observation about PowerPistol I have noticed when shooting in a dark indoor range is a large muzzle flash.

[Handloader109]

I'm on my second and last pound of power pistol, love it and will get more once I use up some of my other powders. But I would suggest, with new gun, go buy three or four boxes of cheap ball and go shoot it. Get your technique right, and insure to your self that you can hit the target with the precision and accuracy that you are comfortable with. Then go play with reloading

[tomf52]

Here is a thought for you. I too was struggling with accuracy and leading in a couple of my guns. I was measuring bullets very carefully, adjusting powder loads, going through all you are going through. Then one day for some reason I got the bright idea to check the accuracy of both my micrometer and caliper against those of a friend. Both were off .002", both giving me undersized bullets. Check your tools!

[ArrowJ]

Here is a thought for you. I too was struggling with accuracy and leading in a couple of my guns. I was measuring bullets very carefully, adjusting powder loads, going through all you are going through. Then one day for some reason I got the bright idea to check the accuracy of both my micrometer and caliper against those of a friend. Both were off .002", both giving me undersized bullets. Check your tools!

The most "accurate" thing I had to check them with was a Hornady XTP 45 caliber bullet. The box said .451" and I got .4515" with my Frankford Arsenal digital calipers.

[dverna]

Much of what you need to learn about pistol shooting can be done at no cost...but it is not fun and boring. It is called "dry firing". If your sights move during dry firing, when you know there is no recoil, you will jerk the gun even more with live ammo.

Dry fire 100 times a day. It costs you nothing and WILL improve your trigger control and your focus on the front sight.

I have to disagree a bit with popper. The difference in barrel time with a faster powder is going to have an imperceptible affect on improving accuracy. There are so many more relevant issues to deal with.

[ArrowJ]

I do not mind dry firing a revolver but racking the slide gets old really quick, but you are correct.

[ArrowJ]

Don, it's a race between getting the boolit out of that short barrel and unlocking the barrel which then starts moving. Real problem for light weight compact S/A. Slow burning powder has a slow fps increase due to pressure rise curve. Has an impact due to trigger follow thru also.
I practice dry firing with a rubber pad behind the trigger and laser light. - never rack the slide.

Something you made or bought for dry fire?

[Echo]

AJ, I recommend loading 10 rounds each with Titegroup, 4.5 to 5.0 grains, increasing by .1 grain, for a total of 60 rounds. Shoot these off a rest and see which load gave the best accuracy. Then try another powder, starting in the middle of the recommended range, and going up by a tenth of a grain again, 10 rounds each, to the max. Yeah, that's a lot of loading, and shooting, but it is the best way to find the best accuracy for YOUR gun. If you wish, try other powders the same way...

[brettb75]

Heavier larger diameter Boolits. I'm working alot with 9mm right now and with that exact boolit and Alox with 6.5 grains of AA #7 and Winchester primers C.O.L. 1.85. This load is great. Sub 1" at 10 yards offhand with a kel tec pf9 offhand. Even better in my cz 85c

[ArrowJ]

Update on my Big Boss 2. The/a press arrived today. They received it last Thursday and I got it today. I am not 100% sure what they did, but it almost looks like a totally new press. They may have salvaged some parts from the old one, but certainly much of it is new. I have not used it yet, but I am confident it will be in working order. I am ready to load some ammo and put this thread into action. Great customer service in my experience. I am guessing I will have no more problems.

[trapper9260]

Like was stated what I have done with powder is that,I test different ones with the start load and load about 5 of each to see what one will group the best and then after I work on that one powder to get the gun shoot the way I want. But like is stated on other things to work on also,I find myself some times with some things also.But the more you shoot,the better you will get. Like also stated use a rest for test load if need be.It will help in the end and then go from there.I am still learning also and from what is posted here. In one of my 9 .it have shallow grove and slug out to .356 ,so I size my cast to .358 and use my 357 seat expander and seat dies to finish off the loading and i get that gun to shoot better. When i have used the 9 dies the cast bullet did not stay the size I had size it too. But after usen the 357 dies it was better.Also the groups was too. Just a idea.

[CraigOK]

4.5gr is a very light load for Sillouette in 9mm. I use that powder at 4.7gr and it's still under 1000fps with Lee 125gr boolit. Ramshot says 4.5gr start to 5.0gr for 125gr lead cast boolits.

Id up the powder charge before I adjusted anything else, but maybe a few rounds at 4.7 and some at 4.9

[ArrowJ]

Things got better today. I took 50 rounds of powder coated as dropped ~.359 and 50 powder coated and sized to ~.356. The former performed better from a rest at about 21 feet, but I shot them last and they kept getting better the longer I shot. I am going to repeat the test to account for gun break in and shooter break in. The outliers are all from the first twenty shots. Forty total in that target. Looking up.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160422/227746ee3489c33c4dd572a558b346df.jpg

Incidentally, I am still going to load the Aloxed bullets, but I think I have the PC figured out. Not sure if I just got it right or if it was because I switched from black to another color. Both were Smoke's and the black was the one he tested for shake and bake. Either way, good stuff.

Edit: also increased the powder charge to 4.7 gr.

[DerekP Houston]

Nice, you'll notice the powder coating gets easier with practice. I think the black is the hardest color to get even coverage on. Looks like increasing the powder charge cured the keyholes unless I missed them on the target. I still use alox all the time just a bit smoky. Tons of the stuff laying around after buying all the sizing dies I needed anyways.

[ArrowJ]

Nice, you'll notice the powder coating gets easier with practice. I think the black is the hardest color to get even coverage on. Looks like increasing the powder charge cured the keyholes unless I missed them on the target. I still use alox all the time just a bit smoky. Tons of the stuff laying around after buying all the sizing dies I needed anyways.

Yeah, no keyholes either! I might just have to load some more tonight :) Thanks again to everybody.