Colt's Black Powder Series is Superior to their a

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Superior

[M-Tecs]

Superior


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[Silver Jack Hammer]

I don't know how this got posted before I was finished with it.

Colt's Signature Series are not as good a quality for shooting as their Black Powder Series. I've got both. The Signature Series has a prettier bluing than the regular series, but the fit of the grips is inferior on the Signatre Series, and the front sight fell off the Signature Series before I shot it for the first time.

These are 1860 Army .44's and the regular series hits right to the point of aim. The Signature Series is 6" high at 15 yards.

[Battis]

Maybe I got lucky with my two 3rd Generation Signature Series Colts - they are unmatched as far as fit, finish, function, accuracy, looks, etc. The Ruger Old Army, which, in my opinion, is the best BP handgun ever made, is in a class by itself, and really shouldn't be compared to any other BP guns.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/S4020001_zpsn2x7skoo.jpg

The engraving on the Signature Series Custer model 1861 Navy (bottom) compares nicely to the engraving on my original, factory engraved Remington-Beals .36.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/Picture026_zpsc48564f8.jpg

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Battis, glad you got some good Colt's, they sure look nice. I just ordered another 1860 Army Colt's .44 in the black box Black Powder Series, not the grey box Signature Series Colt's.

Also I was out the other day with my Black Powder Series Army trying 2 different ball sizes and found the .454" significantly more accurate than the .457" size. Two targets side by side at 15 yards, 27 gr of Goex FFFg capped with CCI #10's with a smear of Bore Butter. I fired multiple 6 shot groups and for my Colt's the .454" was much tighter. I tried Speer and Hornady brands both.

[reivertom]

I don't have any others to compare it to, but my Signature Series Walker is as nice of a gun as I've ever owned and it looks and functions beautifully. I can't find a complain with anything about it other than it weighs as much as a spud bar, but that would be Sam Colt's fault.

[Battis]

I've always liked the Signature Series Colts, even if you can't get a Colt letter for them (last time I checked, the "letters" were $300 - no thanks). Then again, I never met a BP revolver that I didn't like. One of my favorites is my Pietta 1860 .44 - very smooth, as accurate as I can make it, and I don't care if it gets scratched. A few years back, someone offered to buy the Custer model in the pic - it was unfired at the time. I just had to fire it, and after I did, the potential buyer lowered his offer by $200. I kept it (I'm glad I fired it - what a nice shooter).

[45 Dragoon]

Well, the revolvers made by the Colt Blackpowder Arms Company were not made, produced or inspected by Colt so . . . . . whatever. No matter, they (S.A.s of any stripe) can all be made to work better/ perfect!!


Battis- I agree with you about the ROA but then again, anything with 100 yrs worth of R&D behind it SHOULD be better!! Fords made today are a little better than Fords of the 1910's.
That said, how about a gated conversion for your ROA ? . . . . that would shoot Ruger only loads?

Reivertom- your Walker, (unless it has been addressed) has a too short arbor and too much tension on the bolt spring (along with the rest of the springs). It could be a much better "nicest gun you've ever owned" gun.


Mike

[Battis]

how about a gated conversion for your ROA ?
Thanks, but cap and ball should stay cap and ball. I like the quirks of these guns, repros and originals. I like working on them, researching them (originals) and shooting them. I even like cleaning them.

[45 Dragoon]

Battis-, Great opinion but I like mine better (glad your not King). The originals didn't stay C&B and more than you may think we're truly the "guns that won the West" (that should show up in your "research" somewhere).


Mike
s

[45 Dragoon]

Ooops, dup.

[Battis]

I am King - didn't you get the memo? Guns didn't win the West - people won the West.
Cartridge guns are fine - I reload for many rifles and a few handguns - but there's something about taking your time and making sure each shot counts with a cap and ball handgun. Piettas, Ubertis, Belgians, 2nd and 3rd Generation Colts - basically any cap and ball handgun with metric screw and nipple threads - are just plain fun. Add the beauty of the Signature Series Colts and I'm a happy man (until I leave the range, at least). I like researching the patents and the history of the originals that I own.
I do think that the 2nd Generation Colts are more historically accurate. The 3rd Generation Colts bring to mind a gun owner "back in the day" who would have brought his guns to a craftsman such as you for extra personalized work. Do you engrave guns?

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Hey, I want to join in this conversation. I've taken up cap and ball again after years of shooting metallic revolving arms and I'm hooked. When the front sight fell off the Signature Series I went to the hardware store and got a brass wing nut. I sawed off a wing and shaped it with a file until it fit in the barrel slot. I thought I had too much front sight and was intending to file some down but it's hitting 6" high at 15 yards.

What I don't have is a Navy '6.

[Battis]

If that front sight did not fall off, you wouldn't have had the fun of replacing it. Half the fun is working on them.

One of my favorites - original 1851 Navy .36 in action.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/Picture105_zpse1dc762d.png

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Battis, you are absolutely right. Great pic. 2 more days and I'll be shooting.

[Battis]

Here's my Pietta 1860 .44 (I removed the finish and reblued it with a liquid cold blue, which gave it a nice old gray color).
Below it is a Savage & North .36 - it should have been a .44. I actually found and bought two original cylinders for it on ebay last year. I try to shoot it once a year.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/Picture009_zpsb1d6ab35.jpg

[45 Dragoon]

Battis, You're right, people won the West . . . . . . . people with guns! Many Dragoons went West. A lot were later converted to cartridges (along with Armys Navys and pocket guns).
There are patents covering the conversions that Colts did for customers (since you like historically correct stuff).
I shot more blk powder for over 30 yrs than most ever will in a lifetime. I enjoyed the cleaning as well. Then, I got over it !!! Cleaning isn't fun anymore!! Lol!! I can't shoot anything outdoors where I live and would have to go to another county. With an indoor range 10 minutes from my house and the availability of Kirst Konversions, I can shoot my favorite revolvers, bring them home, wipe them off and put them away. The two 1st Mod Dragoons I have are the most accurate revolvers I've ever owned (shooting and mechanically). Thanks to the fast twist barrel (~ 1:18) Uberti uses and Kirsts most excellent product, that setup can be the norm (not to mention a little tweaking from me).


That being the case, it's a little more than annoying to be told what you like most - shouldn't be! "Cap and ball should stay cap and ball" - absolute hogwash!!


No, I don't do engraving, I just make them run right and reliably. I haven't shot blk powder in about 13 years!


Mike

[Battis]

it's a little more than annoying to be told what you like most - shouldn't be! "Cap and ball should stay cap and ball" - absolute hogwash!!

Well, geez, I'm sorry that what I like bothers you so much. I live in Massachusetts and I get a lot of negative comments concerning my firearms, but the comments are always from liberals who are annoyed over what I like. I've never had a gunowner tell me that what I like is hogwash. What is hogwash?
Can you point me to those patents that cover the conversions that Colt did for customers? I'd be interested in reading them.
I said I like researching, but never said that I like "historically accurate stuff". I did say that I like repro BP guns, those with metric screw and nipple threads, which aren't exactly historically accurate, but just plain fun.
If you haven't shot black powder in 13 years, and you don't like cap and ball revolvers, what the hell are you doing on a muzzle loading forum? Trolling for business?
Anyways, I like to work on my own guns. I hear you do good work, but so do I.

[45 Dragoon]

Battis, you've got it backwards. If you'll go back and look at your own freekin post, you're the one that basically told me I shouldn't be into "conversions" because cap and ball should stay cap and ball.I have never told anyone what they should/shouldn't like.
As far as trolling for business, I don't have to! I don't see anywhere where I asked you or anyone else to buy something from me! I find that comment a slap in the face!!
I am checking for interest in gated conversions for ROAs but did not ask if you wanted to buy one (there aren't any on the market).
Ever heard of Richards conversions (types 1 and 2), the Thuer conversion, the Richards- Mason conversion. The Colt factory was very busy in the early 1870s because of the new cartridge territory opened up because of the expiration of the Rollin White patent.


Why in the hell am I on a muzzleloader forum? Because by God I wanna be!!
Yep, you'd be a great King!


Mike


By the way, never said I didn't like cap and ball revolvers, I fix um every day. Doesn't mean I have to shoot them though!

[Battis]

All I wanted to do was comment on Colt 2nd and 3rd Generation Colts. Then you pipe up with that **** about gated conversions - I don't want to shoot cartridges out of my BP cap and ball revolvers. Simple. I want my cap and ball revolvers to stay as cap and ball revolvers. But my opinion, apparently, is all hogwash. I never told you that you shouldn't be "into conversions" - I don't give a rat's **** what you do. If you're checking for interest in gated conversions for ROAs, then start your own thread. Just leave my opinions alone.

[45 Dragoon]

That's fine Battis, Just so we're clear, ROAs (which you initially posted about) aren't 2nd and 3 Rd gen Colts.


I won't bother you anymore.


Mike

[John Taylor]

Don't want to get involved in this little war but there is a conversion for the ROA, http://www.kirstkonverter.com/ruger-old-army.html. I have been shooting BP for more than a few years and like almost anything that goes bang. The first muzzle loaders I made I had to use match heads for powder because I could not get Black. Firecracker guns using 1/2" water pipe and marbles was before that. Wonder someone didn't get hurt.

[45 Dragoon]

Hey John, No war here. Just standing up for us "conversionists" lol!


Yes, Kirst makes a very nice product (I don't have any affiliation with them) but for the ROA, they and others only make "drop cylinder" conversions. Nobody offers a "gated conversion" for the ROA.


Match heads work well in little toy brass cannons too! Then (like you suggest) "lady finger" firecrackers worked even better! Then, (lol) slightly unrolled "regular". (ie. black cat) firecrackers worked the best!! Especially with .177 call pellets!!!!


Mike

[Golfswithwolves]

Mr. Silver Jack Hammer- Can you detect any difference in sight height or other factor which could explain the difference in points of impact you find between your 2nd and 3rd generation Colts? I too have the privilege of owning both generation revolvers but they are not the same models from the two production runs, so I can't compare these factors directly. Myself I like the quality of all of these Colts and would be hard pressed to tell them apart except for the Sam Colt signature on the newer ones.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I fashioned the front sight of the Signature Series much taller than the Black Powder Series front sight yet my point of impact is still too high, 6" at 15 yards. The Black Powder Series front sight is the slight factory nubbin and yet it hits point of aim.

The Signature Series has a high luster bluing and high gloss varnished wood grips that fit poorly. The Black Powder Series has wood grips with an oil finish.

the Black Powder Series came in a black box. The Signature Series came in a grey box.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

166346

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The serial numbers are 205,7XX for the Black Powder Series and 215,8XX for the Signature Series. The address lines on the tips of the barrels are different sized type. The cylinder engraving is different. The battle scenes are the same, but the Signature Series is stamped "Engraved by W.L. Ormsby New York" the Black Powder Series cylinder is stamped "PAT. SEPT. 10th 1850"

The scallop of the recoil shield of the of the Black Powder Series has the cap groove, the Signature Series does not.

[Golfswithwolves]

Mr. Silver Jack Hammer- So, am I correct that you see nothing to suggest why the 3rd gen. shoots higher than the 2nd? Thanks GWW

[doc1876]

My Signature series 1860 nickle is numbered 302. after a lot of research, the originals had the patent date only with the cylinder engraving, perhaps this is a way to guarantee fakes.
also as mine is one of a few nickle made, so I will not be shooting it, however, it is a beautiful piece of work.

When I got it, I started a lot of research about the making of the signature series. I called Colt and got a return call from a a nice gentleman who had a basic understanding of their history he told me that the guns were assembled in Boston(???) by a new firm who has since gone on to become Henry Firearms. I have several calls int them as I am trying to find out how many nickle ones were made, and as of yet (2 Years and SEVERAL calls) no return calls have been made.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Golfswithwolves I do not have an understanding of the terms 2nd Gen and 3rd Gen as it applies to Colt's BP revolvers. The brochure in the Black Powder Series has a print date of 1978. The Signature Series has 1994, and 9-1-94 written on the top of the shipping box.

I was told at the Colt's factory that these guns were not made at the factory, but Colt clearly extended their copyright name to these guns.

[Battis]

The Signature Series revolvers are considered (by some) 3rd Generation Colts.