My newest crown jewel: Colt National Match

[kawasakifreak77]

I'm not a big handgun guy & never had a 1911 before. Shot several of them but they never gave me the warm & fuzzies.

Until dad said his National Match was for sale...

https://picblaze.com/thumbs/n2130n/20160409220157.jpg (https://picblaze.com/user/n2130n/album/20160409220157.jpg)

I couldn't let this leave the family & yes it was hard coughing up 'colt money' but I am getting to where my collection represents the finer things in life fortunately.

The grips aren't original which is a bit of a let down. The mag is a colt but not blued, otherwise as far as either of us know its original.

Just pulling the slide back & releasing it to chamber a big ole fat hardball feels incredible. I cannot feel any wiggle on this gun. None. Zero. Never saw an automatic like this before. I dunno what they did to these things but the craftsmanship shines.

And boy does it shoot! I guess I'll have to start casting for 45 now!! :D

[Alstep]

WOW, what a beauty!!! Doesn't get any better than that. Glad you got it, would have been a crime to let it leave the family.
A bit of caution tho, some Colt match 1911's had lightened slides, and were meant to shoot light loads with SWC bullets. Check the 1911 forum. Someone there should have better advise than I can give. Hopefully, yours is a hardball gun.
As for boolits, can't beat the H&G 68 or close copies.
Good luck with it.

[Zim]

That is beautiful! I hope you have a long time to appreciate it.

[gnostic]

I have a series 70 Gold Cup and 3.5 grains of Bullseye with a 185 grain SW and an 11lb. spring is the load according to Colt. Ball will knock the rear sight off in short order.

[6bg6ga]

Actually the trigger isn't original either. I had a series 70 Colt National Match Gold Cup and I loved it but being younger at the time I let it go down the road which was a mistake.

[Scharfschuetze]

That's a nice acquisition Kawasaki.


A bit of caution tho, some Colt match 1911's had lightened slides, and were meant to shoot light loads with SWC bullets.

If the slide has been lightened, you'll see it fast by comparing your slide to a standard Colt 1911 slide.

If it has been lightened, concentrate on developing a good 185 grain SWC load. If not, you're good to go for the heavier boolits. The NRA guns for the 2700 course often shot the 185 grain or 200 grain SWC. The guns for DCM (now CMP) courses of fire were often called "Hardball" guns and had to shoot the issue 230 grain 45 ACP load. Obviously the "Hardball" guns would have a standard weight slide compared to the "Softball" guns using the lighter SWCs.


Just pulling the slide back & releasing it to chamber a big ole fat hardball feels incredible.

A well fitted 1911 is a joy to operate.

By the way, your new 1911 has what looks to be the Colt "Accro" rear sight. It is often seen on Colt Pythons. The other Colt sight for the NM 1911 and also some Pythons was the Elliason sight. I think that all the Colt "Gold Cup" 1911s came with the Elliason sight. At least that's what my Gold Cup of some 40 years ago had on it as well as my Python of the same time frame.

The slanted gripping grooves also look like a Gold Cup's grooves. Can you post a photo of the left side of the slide as well as the top?

Without running the serial number, I'd guess that it was made in the 60s or there a bout. I believe that the trigger is the stock NM and Gold Cup trigger.

Enjoy your new shooting machine! They are addictive and you may find a few more 1911s finding their way into your inventory.

[DougGuy]

Oooooooohhhhh!! Niiiiiiiiiice! :bigsmyl2:

They certainly don't make 'em like that no more!

[Windwalker 45acp]

Never gave you the warm and fuzzies!?

Boy, you're doing something wrong...

:)
Nice addition and Kudo's for keeping that gem in the family.

[Char-Gar]

That is a late 1962 Colt Gold Cup. It is all correct except the grips, the magazine and the mainspring housing. It left the factory with a flat housing. Blown up I can get enough of th SN to tell the date.

[kawasakifreak77]

Thank you sir. Yeah dad said it was a '61 or '62, but always corrected me if I would say Gold Cup? He always says its a National Match & it says that on the gun, but no mention of Gold cup anywhere. I'm not sure of the difference but he was also adament that it is a pre 70 series. I'm honestly not a big Colt person, this is my first Colt anything. I would like to eventually find period correct grips at least & I'm afraid to guess what those might cost me!


Never gave you the warm and fuzzies!?

Boy, you're doing something wrong...

:)
Nice addition and Kudo's for keeping that gem in the family.

Yeah I've shot a pile of 1911s & could never really hit good with them. I grew up a Smith wheelgun guy, never had much else in the way of handguns. Dad handed me this pistol right after he got it years ago years ago & I put several rounds right through the bullseye. I told him if he ever sold it, it'd better go to me then! Between then & now the price went up substacially though! God willin' I still have several years on this rock so I should have plenty of time to enjoy this fine piece. :)

I'll be looking for a mold soon. Right now I got a good deal of 200gr XTPs & 255 store bought cast from a retired 454 casull project to burn up. I'm not loading them warm for this ole girl. The frame stretchers are for my Sig P220

[kawasakifreak77]

I have a series 70 Gold Cup and 3.5 grains of Bullseye with a 185 grain SW and an 11lb. spring is the load according to Colt. Ball will knock the rear sight off in short order.

Only 3.5gr bullseye with a 185?? That sounds awefully light! Will normal ball damage this gun? Or can a guy put in a heavier recoil spring to shoot normal loads?

[Char-Gar]

I have a series 70 Gold Cup and 3.5 grains of Bullseye with a 185 grain SW and an 11lb. spring is the load according to Colt. Ball will knock the rear sight off in short order.

Gold Cups of the vintage shown in the OP pic came with a light spring for good function with such light loads. Later versions came with two springs, one for light loads and the other was a 16 lbs. spring for full snort loads.

The early ones had the rear sight held in place with a solid pin and the later ones use a roll pin. It was the roll pins that would take a beating and allow the rear sights to detach from the gun. It was simple to replace the roll pin with a solid pin and you were good to go with full snort loads in the Gold Cup.

[Char-Gar]

Only 3.5gr bullseye with a 185?? That sounds awefully light! Will normal ball damage this gun? Or can a guy put in a heavier recoil spring to shoot normal loads?

Yes, you can put a standard 16 lb. spring and shoot normal loads. I bought one of the back in 1964 and shot it extensively until 1977. All my loads were standard velocity and bullet weight. I did make certain it had a 16 lbs spring in it.

Colt made several version of the 1911, they called National Match. The earlier ones were just Government Model pistols with better fixed sights. As time went on, more modifications were made to better suit the handgun for competition. In 1957 Colt added the moniker "Gold Cup" to their National Match pistols. If you will take a look at the serial number, it will bear the suffix NM, which stands for National Match. The Gold cup added the adjustable rear sight, the sighting rib on top of the slide, the grooves in the front strap of the frame and the trigger which was adjustable for over travel. In all others aspects they were box stock Government Models and will shoot and last as such with the proper spring.

As I mentioned earlier, they came with a flat mainspring housing that target shooters seemed to prefer. Like your Dad, I changed it out for an arched housing which I prefer.

The original grips were a rather light colored walnut, checkered without the diamonds and had a gold Colt medallion in each grip. They should not be that hard to find on Ebay and should not cost you an arm or a leg. I put ivory grips on mine.

You have a great handgun, enjoy it, with care it will last you a lifetime. You did not ask my opinion, but I will give it to you anyway. Keep those 255 grain bullets far away from that pistol. It is not just a matter of velocity, but slide momentum. Folks have ended up with battered frames using heavier than normal bullets in 1911 pistols. Browning designed those pistol, which have many moving parts to work with 200 grain bullets which the military latter upped to 230 grains. 200 to 230 grains are still the sweet spot for bullet weight in the 1911 pistol.

Here are the grips you are looking for. The color of the walnut varied from batch to batch.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191844221997?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[kawasakifreak77]

Thank you for your info & advice sir, I will heed it & throw the 255s in the pot for future boolits.

It has the solid pin, but I am unsure of the recoil spring.

So any quality mold between 185 & 200 grain should suffice? It seems so odd to use such a light boolit in the 45.

& thank you for pointing out the correct grips! Those aren't nearly as high as I was expecting.

[Char-Gar]

Thank you for your info & advice sir, I will heed it & throw the 255s in the pot for future boolits.

It has the solid pin, but I am unsure of the recoil spring.

So any quality mold between 185 & 200 grain should suffice? It seems so odd to use such a light boolit in the 45.

& thank you for pointing out the correct grips! Those aren't nearly as high as I was expecting.

1. Buy a 16 lbs recoil spring from Brownells and be safe. These things need to be changed our every once in a while, so start out right.

2. I would stick with 200 - 230 grain bullets. Some folks like the lighter ones, but I don't.

3. A good place to start is a Hensley and Gibbs (or clone) No. 68. This are very accurate bullets will function well in your pistol and if pushed to 850-900 fps will do anything you want the pistols to do, i.e. target, field or defense use.

4. If you can find it, Bullseye powder is the way to go. A charge of 4.7 to 5.0 grains behind the H&G 68 is what you want.

5. Accurate makes high quality lathe bored aluminium molds and their #45-200H is their clone of the H&G 68.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-200H-D.png

[Scharfschuetze]

It seems so odd to use such a light boolit in the 45.

It is all about recoil in the NRA 2700 game and now in the steel shooting game.

In the NRA course of fire, you fire three stages with the .22, the 38 and the 45. The rules allow you to shoot a .45 in the .38 stage so many shooters just did that as it saved the expense of a third pistol.

Each stage has a slow fire stage, a timed fire stage and a rapid fire stage. These are all fired single handed so recoil is a factor in the latter two stages. The reduced recoil of the the 185 grain boolits allow more time for aiming and firing and thus better accuracy.

Here is a quick link to help you understand what your new National Match 1911 was made for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullseye_(shooting_competition)

For more info, you can check the NRA web site or the CMP web site. My local club shoots the 22LR version of the course every Monday.

[Char-Gar]

The stock Colt National Match or Gold Cup never really cut it in high level Bullseye Match shooting. They had no better fit or accuracy than the average Government Model of the same vintage.

The military had their various Marksmanship units, with armors who rebuilt and modified stock 45 by adding sights, tightening the slide to the frame fit, installing oversize links, doing trigger work and some other magic things.

We civilians who didn't have the military to furnish us with match pistols, had to hire gunsmiths like Clark, Peters, Chow etc. etc. to do it for us. My match pistol was build by Bob Chow the San Francisco gun wizard. That is right San Francisco California was once a very gunny place.

I bought the Gold Cup, not for match shooting, but as a field pistol. I liked the adjustable sights and the other nice gizmos. I killed several Texas Whitetail deer with it, a pickup truck load of Javelina, and a large assortment of other small critters.

My first field pistol was a stock Remington-Rand 1911A1 and the Gold Cup was light years better than that. A good 1911 pistol, in spite of what some think, makes a fine field pistol for general use and brush popping. They are also a first class weapon for social purposes as well.

[M-Tecs]

As a long time 1911 fan I am well aware of the different recoil spring weights for 185 SWC and hardball. I am not aware of lightened slides for bullseye shooting. Was there ever a Colt NM with a lightened slide? If so pics? I didn't start seeing lightened slides until the IPSC and three gunners started using them.

[Char-Gar]

As a long time 1911 fan I am well aware of the different recoil spring weights for 185 SWC and hardball. I am not aware of lightened slides for bullseye shooting. Was there ever a Colt NM with a lightened slide? If so pics? I didn't start seeing lightened slides until the IPSC and three gunners started using them.

I have never heard or seen of such a thing either. If it was done, it would be after my time on the line.

[Alstep]

Here's the dope on lightened slides from the 1911 forum. If you search around, you'll find a lot more info about that. The 1911 forum is to 1911's, what the cast boolit forum is to cast boolits. Just a wealth of good stuff there.

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=500414&highlight=lightened+slides

[warpspeed]

Ball will knock the rear sight off in short order.

That is so true it's funny.

[M-Tecs]

Here's the dope on lightened slides from the 1911 forum. If you search around, you'll find a lot more info about that. The 1911 forum is to 1911's, what the cast boolit forum is to cast boolits. Just a wealth of good stuff there.

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=500414&highlight=lightened+slides

Thanks that was the type info I was looking for. Didn't know that.

[6bg6ga]

It has been mentioned that the Gold Cup/National Match had no better accuracy than the average Government model and to this I will disagree. I've had Government models that wouldn't shoot a 5" group no matter what you did to them. My Cup would take out the center of any target without a problem. My brother purchased a 70 and 80 series Gold Cup and they were also accurate. I never tried 185gr in my guns. If I compare target from the past with the capabilities of my new 1911 S&W from the custom shop I can get much better groupings/accuracy with the new S&W but then again it costs a lot more and is setup better. Much tighter and a better barrel bushing. My current run of the mill 1911 colt abortion is a National Match slide, barrel, and bushing on a Essex frame. Good trigger parts producing a crist 3.14 lb trigger pull and it shoots very well. Certainly you don't have a comp gun in the Colt national match but it will shoot head and shoulders above a lot of 1911's out there and certainly something to be proud of. I would scrap both springs and purchase new ones from Brownells so you know exactly what you have and stay away from 255gr bullets.

[dg31872]

If I remember correctly, I read a magazine article ( in a magazine specifically for the 1911, do not remember which one) and the article said that fast powder and heavy slug would reduce slide velocity.
I have a Gold Cup Trophy and have been following this recommendation.
Have I been abusing my fine pistol?

[Char-Gar]

It has been mentioned that the Gold Cup/National Match had no better accuracy than the average Government model and to this I will disagree. I've had Government models that wouldn't shoot a 5" group no matter what you did to them. My Cup would take out the center of any target without a problem. My brother purchased a 70 and 80 series Gold Cup and they were also accurate. I never tried 185gr in my guns. If I compare target from the past with the capabilities of my new 1911 S&W from the custom shop I can get much better groupings/accuracy with the new S&W but then again it costs a lot more and is setup better. Much tighter and a better barrel bushing. My current run of the mill 1911 colt abortion is a National Match slide, barrel, and bushing on a Essex frame. Good trigger parts producing a crist 3.14 lb trigger pull and it shoots very well. Certainly you don't have a comp gun in the Colt national match but it will shoot head and shoulders above a lot of 1911's out there and certainly something to be proud of. I would scrap both springs and purchase new ones from Brownells so you know exactly what you have and stay away from 255gr bullets.

Read my post carefully and you will note I was talking about an early 60s Colt Gold Cup being no more accurate than a Goverment Model od the SAME vintage. Later Colts are different critters. I have a 2005 GM that will outshoot my old GC by a country mile.

[Scharfschuetze]

Accurate CNC machining has certainly cost a few custom pistolsmiths a lot of business. Out of the box 1911s will now often out shoot hand fitted 1911s.

I was just working up loads with a new lot of HP38 and 200 grain SWCs a few weeks ago, and my Kimber Match Target out shot my gunsmithed Colt.

[Char-Gar]

Accurate CNC machining has certainly cost a few custom pistolsmiths a lot of business. Out of the box 1911s will now often out shoot hand fitted 1911s.

I was just working up loads with a new lot of HP38 and 200 grain SWCs a few weeks ago, and my Kimber Match Target out shot my gunsmithed Colt.

There is no question that modern CNC machining has taken gun making of all type to a new level. These are the good old days.

There are many 1911 pistols on the market today that will shoot as well or better than my old Bob Chow worked over pistol.

[Bill*B]

I had one of these years ago, and sold it to a friend - an action I've come to regret! There is no more accurate handgun made.

[Leadmelter]

I bought a Series 70 Gold Cup in 1978. Still shoot it some in the winter to stay in shape. I have the original barrel and bushing.
Some offered me a grand, to take right off my hands.
No
Leadmelter

[Joni Lynn]

Congrats on the GCNM.
For years I had a serious GCNM addiction, especially for the older ones. I've now sold or traded most of mine but still have several of the older ones including a first year (1957).
The rear sight can't fly off, the elevation screw holds it in place, the cross pin however can work it's way out or just plain shear off. One of my series 70 GCNM sheared and was replaced by a solid pin with an ever so slight bend in it to stop if from drifting. My 1957 needs one of those as it drifts about a good bit. The older ones may not say Gold Cup on the gun but the literature and boxes of the time did. I had my 3 older ones and a 70 & 80 out shooting last time I went to the range with a friend. Always a lot of fun. The 70 & 80 are the least accurate 1911's I own.
My standard range load is a 200 lswc and a moderate charge of WW231 or HP38 (same thing)
Best wishes for many years of pleasurable shooting with the NM.

[Joni Lynn]

Here's a pic of the 3 older GCNM that I have kept as of now.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/Joni_Lynn/ColtGCNM_zpsk4iruxvv.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Joni_Lynn/media/ColtGCNM_zpsk4iruxvv.jpg.html)

I removed the original Accro rear sights on them and replaced with Elliason's. The sight picture is a bit better now. I kept the Accro to install whenever.

These 3 all shot about the same size groups. Good for a Colt but not good enough to be competitive. Still lots of fun.

[kawasakifreak77]

Thank you all again gentleman for all your information & stories!

[wv109323]

There's a lot of misinformation about the National Match pistol in this thread. Colt made three versions of early pistols that they called National Match. These are are exceptionally rare. One was actually in .38 Super. IIRC there were only 500 of each made.
The National Match pistol I think you have is a pre-70 series National Match. These came in a Yellow and red box(again from memory) and had a test target in the box. They were a hand built target pistol of the first order. They have the slide cut under the extractor to where it is visible from the bottom of the slide. The barrel was hand fit, The slide to frame was fit to each other.. The recoil spring plunger is different in that it has a 45 degree fit to a matching barrel bushing.
The name Gold Cup was later added just prior to the 70 series. The 70 Series Gold Cup was a modified Government Model with better trigger and sights. The 70 Series GCNM had the collet barrel bushing and had little if any accuracy potential over the standard Government Model.
I would ask your father if he has the box and papers. That would increase the value quite a bit.

[M-Tecs]

Colt also made them in 38 Special to compete with the S&W 52

Good info on the 38 Supers here https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=163171

[ole 5 hole group]

Back in the 60's, out California way, our 2700 loads were 2.7 grains of bullseye in the 38 special using a 148 grain cast wadcutter from wheel weights and 3.2 grains of bullseye using the 185 grain wadcutter. The 3.2 grain in some match pistols would occasionally stovepipe, while the 3.5 grain bullseye loads never had that problem, but the 25 yard X count usually suffered in ragged fire.

We gave that Starr Universal a real workout one evening, every week while another evening was spent casting, sizing & lube. Didn't need much sleep back then and could go all night loading, make it to work in the morning and shoot a 100 rounds or so every evening after work. Didn't need any bottled water to keep hydrated either, a six pack or two was all that was needed for our little group.

Both of my Clark's (38 Special & 45 ACP) loved the 2.7 and 3.2 loads while my Shockey 45 hardballer with a light spring would cough every now and then on the 3.2 load.

An excellent "field pistol" today is the Baer PII. When I think about the near divorce encounters back in the day when I purchased the Clark's and Shockey that came with a 2.25 to 2.5 inch 10-shot guarantee at 50 yards (test target with proven load), I shutter to think what I would have done to acquire a Baer PII back then with a 1.5 inch 10-shot guarantee at 50 yards.;)

There were a few Colt National Matches on the line, some factory and some tuned a bit, but they held their own against the Customs. Now, when the Service Teams rolled through - they beat hell out of everyone with their pistols - some normal looking, some not so normal looking.

Nice looking pistols there Joni Lynn.

[smkummer]

The elliason sight was introduced about 1966 on the Gold Cup and Match Target Woodsman. It could be fitted to any gun that accepts the accro.

[kawasakifreak77]

Edit: Thank you Jodi Lynn, those are beautiful pistols you have there!


There's a lot of misinformation about the National Match pistol in this thread. Colt made three versions of early pistols that they called National Match. These are are exceptionally rare. One was actually in .38 Super. IIRC there were only 500 of each made.
The National Match pistol I think you have is a pre-70 series National Match. These came in a Yellow and red box(again from memory) and had a test target in the box. They were a hand built target pistol of the first order. They have the slide cut under the extractor to where it is visible from the bottom of the slide. The barrel was hand fit, The slide to frame was fit to each other.. The recoil spring plunger is different in that it has a 45 degree fit to a matching barrel bushing.
The name Gold Cup was later added just prior to the 70 series. The 70 Series Gold Cup was a modified Government Model with better trigger and sights. The 70 Series GCNM had the collet barrel bushing and had little if any accuracy potential over the standard Government Model.
I would ask your father if he has the box and papers. That would increase the value quite a bit.

He does not have the box or papers, sadly. Who knows what it would cost then! I'm not too worried about it as; I'll never sell this pistol & it's 'rough enough' to use as a shooter. I did notice the plunger being different than other 1911s

No matter the cost, it will serve me admirably alongside my other two favorite guns. A Browning Citori lightning 20 gauge, 2012 limited edition in maple wood & my semi-custom suppressed 300 blackout bolt action.

I was hard to justify firearms that cost as much as these at first, growing up a poor farm boy. Once I handled some of these works of art though, they are truely something to behold. They aren't going anywhere until I have a boy of my own to pass them on to. I guess thats how I justify the cost.

[Joni Lynn]

At one time I had a 1957 NM complete with original box. The gentle man that sold it to me had never had it out of the box. Both the box and the literature indicated it was a Colt 'Gold Cup National Match'. I never shot it, and it's long gone now along with a bunch of other ones. I've only held onto those three and one in 38MR.
One thing is for certain, they will never make them like that again. They are jewels to be enjoyed.