.38 Special Brass with LARGE Primer Pockets!

[Bigslug]

Anybody else ever encounter these:

165863

I was down helping Dad turn out some of our FBI Load clones today, and we ran into about 50 of these among our brass from the stash of a departed handloader. Spotted the problem when they wouldn't take a primer from the auto feed. These are nickel plated, with the headstamp of "PETERS .38 S&W SPL".

Does anybody know the story on these? If they're hugely collectible, I guess we can start the bidding now.:bigsmyl2:

[runfiverun]

they made some 357 with large pistol primers too.
I dunno why it was a long time ago [but I have a few cases here and they are nickel plated too]
maybe for some brand of gun that couldn't make it's firing pin hit a small primer?
or for war time reloaders that could only get/had large pistol primers.

[ReloaderFred]

They stopped making large primer .38 Spl. and .357 Magnum brass in the late 1950's/early 1960's. When I first started reloading in 1963, a local gunshop had fired brass for sale in two large round fishbowls for .02 cents each. One bowl had large primed brass and the other had small primed brass, and you had your choice.

I still have some large primed .38 brass in my collection.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Outpost75]

If I recall correctly, the large primers were used on the early high velocity loads which preceded adoption of the +P headstamp in 1974. Most of the large primer you see may have a distinctive headstamp such as "Peters 38-44 HV," "Rem Hi-Speed," "Super-X", "Super Speed" etc.

[kawasakifreak77]

Whoa those are neat! If anybody wants to do some brass swapping for some of those lemme know!

[Guesser]

I've got a hand full of Peters brand 38 Special with LP pockets. they are virgin cases, never loaded or fired, some have factory primers in them.

[alamogunr]

I bought some .45 Colt brass from a member here. When cleaning, I found 7 pcs that had oversize flash holes. They were marked
.45 Colt Blank. Since most of my loading for that cartridge is mid-range or lower, I don't think they would have been dangerous. I sure wouldn't want them mixed with some max loads w/magnum primers.

[Scharfschuetze]

Looks like a seriously oversize flash hole on that far left case. When at the police academy in the mid 70s, we used such cases to shoot wax boolits during training. The reduction in primer pocket pressure from the large FH kept the revolvers from seizing up from the primer backing into the recoil shield.

If all of your large primer pocket cases have drilled out flash holes, keep that in mine when reloading them.

[Joni Lynn]

Good responses. The large primer was primarily used in the 38/44 loads of the past. Some of the cases may be of the folded brass design which holds more powder than modern style brass but isn't as strong. The enlarger primer pocket is not the way they were made for shooting bullets, as previously stated, probably for a wax bullet load or something similar.
There is or was some amount of controversy about how safe it was to fire 38-44 ammo in guns other than the Large frame Colt's like the Shooting Master and S&W 38-44.
Nice find though.

[rintinglen]

Prior to World War II, there seems to have been no set agreement as to what size primers should be used in 38 cases.

Peters made 38 wadcutters that used large primers, as well as 38-44 cases, while Winchester, Remington and UMC cases of that era were found with small pistol primers. I have someplace a Winchester 357 case that has a large primer pocket. IIRC, Phil Sharpe reported that Peters used Large Pistol Primers in all their 38 special loads, but I cannot state that for a fact. I know I did have one of the old Blue and Yellow Police Match Boxes of 38 Special wadcutters that were large primer, back in the late 70's or early 80's but I did not keep them. Although there are some who collect these sorts of things, I view them as mere curiosities and more likely to be a bother than useful.

[ReloaderFred]

I also used to have some large primer .357 Magnum brass, but wore it out reloading it and it got scrapped. The only large primer .38 brass I have now is some nickel .38 Special brass that I keep just so I can show that it did exist. I've read some gun magazine writer's articles that stated they never did exist........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Mtnfolk75]

I also have a handful of the Peters with large primer pockets, don't know where I got them but have kept them as conversation pieces. I started collecting 38 Special brass in 1973.

[Tar Heel]

50 years from now someone on a space forum will find some 45 ACP brass with large primer pockets and pose this question once again.... :-)

[ironhead7544]

In the 38-44 loads they could not get the powder to burn the way they wanted. The slow burning powders needed were too slow. Hence the bigger primers.

When I was a kid, I remember seeing the old ammo catalogs that had the 38-44 loads. There was a weird metal capped round. Just the round nose had a jacket. The rest was a standard lead lubed bullet. I always wondered why. Saw the reason in a recent issue of Handloader magazine. With the slower powders, the bullet would push up into the bore and then the powder would burn. The bullet acted as a bore obstruction. The revolver would blow up. So, they had to use a lead bullet. Later slow pistol powders solved the problem.

[HangFireW8]

All 38-44 and other revolver factory loads were lead bullets. Lee Juras introduced HiVel jacketed revolver loads in the 60's and then the majors copied it.

[Bigslug]

50 years from now someone on a space forum will find some 45 ACP brass with large primer pockets and pose this question once again.... :-)

Hopefully one of our younger members will still be around to bludgeon said person with the handle of a Rock Chucker:bigsmyl2:

Lack of standardization - or more precisely, deviation from standards - seems to have become one of my peeves. Large & small pocket ACP; large & small pocket .455 Webley; mid-length AR gas tubes, take your pick.

I imagine large pocket .38 likely had something to do with Elmer Keith's .38/44 experiments and his big charges of 2400. I don't know when "magnum" primers made their debut, but to the brains at the time, the bigger cap probably made more sense.

I'm also pretty sure that small pocket .45ACP showed up because of the desire to reduce airborne lead styphynate on indoor (mosty police) ranges. Of the common cop calibers of 9mm, .38, .40, and .45, only the .45 nominally used the large primer. Cheaper to reconfigure the brass and only make one lead-free primer (small). I understand the business sense of it, but still want to tune up its inventor with the aforementioned Rock Chucker handle. . .

.455 Webley. . .No doubt Fiocchi realized that there was no need for a large primer to set off the 3-4 grain charges the round typically uses, but it would have been nice if they and Hornady had talked about it first. . .

[MtGun44]

Used to be standard. Old brass.

[ghfljf]

Another use was for wax or plastic practice bullets. Only use the primer so get a bit more bang with large pistol or rifle primers. I got a few of these from my uncle and asked him why he had them.

[gcsteve]

Another use was for wax or plastic practice bullets. Only use the primer so get a bit more bang with large pistol or rifle primers. I got a few of these from my uncle and asked him why he had them.

I just acquired a box of Speer 38 Target plastic bullets, designed to be loaded in a 38 special case, and fired indoors with a large primer. That sure had me confused, as I did not know 38 special brass had LP primers back in the day. Thanks to this thread, now I know. I always learn something when I visit this forum.

[rintinglen]

SOME 38 brass had large pistol primers back in the day! I got out my copy of Phil Sharpe's Complete Guide to Handloading and he stated emphatically that all Peters 38 Special ammunition had Large Pistol Primers while Winchester, Remington, Western, US and UMC all had small primers as of 1937. I recall having two different ram seats for rounded and flat primers with my Pacific "C" Press. Tht was to accomodate the difference between the Winchester and Cascade primers and the Remington primers.

Consistency is the Hobgoblin of little minds.

[clum553946]

I just ran across one with a Federal 38 Special headstamp, nickel plated. First time I’ve ever seen one!

[ReloaderFred]

I've got several in my collection. When I started reloading in 1963, the local gun shop gave you your choice when buying .38 brass for reloading.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[alamogunr]

Hopefully one of our younger members will still be around to bludgeon said person with the handle of a Rock Chucker:bigsmyl2:

Lack of standardization - or more precisely, deviation from standards - seems to have become one of my peeves. Large & small pocket ACP; large & small pocket .455 Webley; mid-length AR gas tubes, take your pick.

I imagine large pocket .38 likely had something to do with Elmer Keith's .38/44 experiments and his big charges of 2400. I don't know when "magnum" primers made their debut, but to the brains at the time, the bigger cap probably made more sense.

I'm also pretty sure that small pocket .45ACP showed up because of the desire to reduce airborne lead styphynate on indoor (mosty police) ranges. Of the common cop calibers of 9mm, .38, .40, and .45, only the .45 nominally used the large primer. Cheaper to reconfigure the brass and only make one lead-free primer (small). I understand the business sense of it, but still want to tune up its inventor with the aforementioned Rock Chucker handle. . .

.455 Webley. . .No doubt Fiocchi realized that there was no need for a large primer to set off the 3-4 grain charges the round typically uses, but it would have been nice if they and Hornady had talked about it first. . .

These are the only cartridges I load on the Dillon. I'm in the process of acquiring small primer .45ACP brass so I don't have to change out the priming set-up. Makes my life simpler. I'll keep my Rock Chucker handle for loading large primer cartridges.

[robertbank]

Bigslug to the best of my knowledge attempts were made to use lead free priming compound in LPP with poor results. There is/was a demand for lead free ammo. In short they could not make it work so they switched the .45acp cases to the SPP. PITA for certain. We don't get a lot of .45acp brass up here and when I run across SP primed .45acp cases they go straight to my recycle pail.

Take Care

Bob

[Landy88]

I guess that I came decades too late to the party, but these would've simplified my loading. The .38spcl and .357 are the only reasons that I even need small primers or their punches.

[GL49]

Anybody else ever encounter these:

I was down helping Dad turn out some of our FBI Load clones today, and we ran into about 50 of these among our brass from the stash of a departed handloader. Spotted the problem when they wouldn't take a primer from the auto feed. These are nickel plated, with the headstamp of "PETERS .38 S&W SPL".

Does anybody know the story on these? If they're hugely collectible, I guess we can start the bidding now.:bigsmyl2:

I'm not trying to give your brass away, but there's a member here, lightman, who is collecting cases. He may may be interested in one of these to add to his collection. I've donated a few cases I'd never use, and didn't need them sitting on my shelf.

[Walter Laich]

I bought some .45 Colt brass from a member here. When cleaning, I found 7 pcs that had oversize flash holes. They were marked
.45 Colt Blank. Since most of my loading for that cartridge is mid-range or lower, I don't think they would have been dangerous. I sure wouldn't want them mixed with some max loads w/magnum primers.

my brother drilled some out for reenactors' blanks. After their leader left the area taking all the $$ with him the cases went back into our cowboy loads. Really can't tell difference with our very mild loads