Lots of reproduction revolvers, few repro bullets

[pill bug]

Cap and ball revolvers continue to evolve. Always ever closer in looks, feel and finish to the original guns. Bullets on the other hand, lag behind. Of the conical bullets available, none have any resemblance to the classic rebated base, single grease grooved, pointed original examples shown below. Other than a double cavity, well used Rapine and a lyman 451 round ball mold that some clever fellow turned over and cut an excellent, spot on .44 cavity into, I haven't seen anything new. Lyman and lee do a great job with round nose conical's that probably shoot better than the originals (and the preferred round balls surely do). But i'm a little surprised there is no market for a repro conical bullet that gives cap and ball revolver shooters a chance to experience what the actual bullets were like.
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[Geezer in NH]

Order a custom. I prefer the RB myself.

[rancher1913]

maybe todays boolits are better, I would rather use a modern combine with air conditioning than an old open platform combine from years ago. sometimes newer is really better, not always but sometimes.

[Earlwb]

I don't know if many people used the conical bullets or not way back then. As I understand it, most everyone used round balls for the bullets. They could get a little extra black powder into the chamber with round balls. Conical bullets used up precious black powder space in the chambers. The other thing was the conical bullets may not have been as accurate as round balls too. Granted a conical might have more range than a round ball. But the people shooting the guns weren't firing at other things or people that far away for the most part.

[bubba.50]

most people just use roundballs in'em so, likely not too much of a market for them really.

[johnson1942]

my three cowboy gun use roundballs in them, two are 38 specials and one is a 45 long colt. they are tackdrivers with roundballs. the roundballs hit hard and get good penetration, lot cheaper to shoot also.

[ascast]

the conicals are very much harder to seat in a "concentric to bore" fashion

[bedbugbilly]

There have been some original type brass molds made that do resemble original conicals somewhat. I've been shooting C & B for 50 some years and have seen a number of them. In fact, I have a couple of 'em but they are a PIA to cast in. Rapine used to make some and they made good molds. I never had any of them as I went with Lyman molds when I was shooting N-SSA. Unfortunately, Rapine is out of business.

One thing you have to look at is "what is the market for them". Yes, you might like some and so would some others, but in reality, how many would buy them - enough to warrant the tooling, set-up, etc.? I doubt it would be profitable.

I have shot a number of different conicals but for me personally, I have always gone back to RB as they shoot well out of my Navy caliber revolvers.

I'm not "anti-historical" at all . . . I much prefer to play with original styles of boolits, etc. in my vintage cartridge revolvers.

One thing that you might consider is if you have a particular style that you think would be a good one and people would like - and more importantly buy - you might consider putting together a "group buy" with someone such as Al at NOE or another custom mold maker. Bear in mind, it would probably take at least ten molds (from what I'm seeing as far as group buys) to warrant the mold maker making a run of them.

Another thing that might pop up is the caliber. You might shoot 44s, bubba might shoot 44s but there are others, like me, who much prefer the Navy caliber of 36. Nothing wrong with either choice of calibers - just a possible limiting factor on those interested in a group buy. In the end, it's all about $$$ and if the demand is not there, it's not worth tooling up for it. A typical double cavity aluminum mold from a good maker is going to run you $80 to $90 for the blocks. If a person wants to try conicals, Lee offers a design for both 36 & 44 that a person can try at a much cheaper price. Lyman blocks will of course be closer in price to a custom maker's mold but again, the designs they offer have been around for a long time, they are tooled up to make them so they do.

One might think, that with such groups as N-SSA, etc., that there might be more demand for a more "authentic" boolit. I am not criticizing N-SSA or any other group - they are great organizations. I shot N-SSA in the '60s, got out of it and then went back in to it in the '80s for a while. While some shooters are "authentic sticklers", many are there because they love shooting rifled musket, carbine, pistol, etc. and enjoy that type of competition. My experience was that while I was in it for enjoyment and fun, some of my team-mates were "very competitive". Their goal was to clear the board in record time. They shot whatever boolit design did the job and which the rules allowed. I shot many light weight 58 caliber semi-wad cutters and still do for fun - not authentic but the "worked the best" for the job they were doing. Thus, if a Lee design conical in a C & B does the job, or a round ball, that is what is used. Rules may have changed as I have not kept up on it.

I think your post and comments are good and the photos are great! It's things like that that gets people's interest peaked and gets things going such as group buys, etc. It's just that everyone is different as far as their shooting and needs are.

[Earlwb]

I took a look see, and Dixie Gun Works still sells a .36 and .44 caliber conical bullet mold. They look like a Lee mold. They also sell the brass period style bullet molds for various pistols too. of course they sell the ball molds as well.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_101_283&sort=2a&&page=2

[swathdiver]

Original cap and ball revolvers had gain twist rifling for shooting conical boolits. Those pointy conicals though slipped through man doing considerably less damage than the round ball however.

Until very recently, nearly all reproduction cap and ball sixguns had slow twist rifling for round ball performance. The simple round ball is a proven killer on man and game, especially inside of 25-50 yards. During the last decade or so manufacturers have been tightening the twist not so much for conicals but for the cowboy action shooters using conversion cylinders.

The best conicals for hunting with cap and ball revolvers are the Kaido variety. There's none better.

[Omnivore]

Here's one;
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=916728&CAT=4175

Perderoli makes repro molds also, but the one I tried was marginal.

How many bullet molds choices do you want? Accurate Molds has around 20 or more conical molds for percussion revolvers for the 36 and 44 calibers, with the 45-200X being very similar to some of the 1860s originals;
http://accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=10

Plus you can order your own designs from them for the same price, so if you don't have exactly the bullet you want, you have only yourself to blame.

HOWEVER; unless you have an original revolver, chances are you'll need a custom gun to go with your custom bullet mold. Other than my Uberti 1861 Navy, all my ITALIAN GUNS WERE MADE FOR ROUND BALL. Either the loading port is too small for conicals, or the SEATING PLUNGER IS FR ROUND BALL and will therefore turn those pointy nose bullets into ball nose bullets upon seating. You can start with a nice pointy nose bullet, but you won't actually be firing any.

There are tens of thousands of words of information on this subject, and lots of photos detailing exactly what can be done to set up a great conical shooter, over on the 1858 Remington forum, if you're really interested, and so I won't spoon feed it all to you here.

In the meantime, here's a photo of my stainless Remington loaded with 200 grain flat nose conicals. In this case, the seating plunger has a flat face on it for seating flat nose bullets, and is longer to provide more support in the frame.
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I had problems seating round ball with the Uberti '61 Navy because the plunger was made for pointy bullets. I filled the plunger nose with epoxy to prevent it biting into a round ball and pulling it back out of the chamber.

Stuff like that.

it ain't all so simple as someone offering you the exact bullet you want, on a silver platter. You'll still have problems to overcome and choices to make in optimizing your gun to a specific bullet.

[pill bug]

No,No. I'm not looking for a mold, Just sharing some thoughts; given the popularity of civil war reenacting (and the movement towards ever greater historic accuracy and realism), I wondered Why a more historically correct mold was not around (and got some great answers,thanks!) That was my purpose. Honestly not trying to pass the leg work of actually finding a mold on anyone. Have all the Lyman cap and ball revolver molds already, and the lee's, my hands are full!

[pill bug]

Unfortunately, now that my question of why the historic pointed bullets are extinct is solved. It brings to mind another mystery. Why were they ever around in the first place? Perhaps an early designers idea of what a bullet is supposed to look like? Or is there more to it? I'm curious, so turned to the intended targets themselves, mounted cavalry for an answer. Check out these pics of reenactors, The first thing that comes to mind (for me) is how much stuff a mounted horseman has! I see thick leather straps, belts,and pouches; heavy layered clothes, pistol holsters, saddles, jeez the list is endless. All are protection in one form or another. So, this is my theory; Pointed revolver bullets are an early attempt at creating an armor piercing projectile. Ok, not armor piercing (poor choice of words).How about an "object" piercing projectile. One that has a better chance of shooting thru a carbine stock, a canteen, leather tack or what have you and getting to the trooper himself or his horse.(I hate to think of it that way,but horse and rider are a team. both could be intended targets). Anyway, that's what I'm thinking those points are for.
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[Earlwb]

I was watching some videos of cap and ball revolvers being shot into ballistics gel and the penetration was quite good. One video had 22.5 inches of penetration using a .45 cal round ball maybe about 145 grains in weight. Muzzle velocity with 30 grains black powder was around 750 to 900 fps. The wound track was similar to a FMJ 9mm bullet.

So penetration of clothing, etc should not be a problem for the most part. But a bullet hitting a heavy belt, cross belt, coat, shirt, undershirt anything else may not make it all that deep though. One thing bad is infections from the dirty bullets, dirty clothing, etc. People didn't take baths much, if any, way back then either.

Some examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIPazOT5M3A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpIVLUQ9rk8&nohtml5=False

part 1,2 and 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGzAuC3O3HM&nohtml5=False

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0xA71_PwHQ&nohtml5=False

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVmYRePzoOQ&nohtml5=False

[swathdiver]

The .44 caliber cap and ball revolver was intended to dismount a rider from his horse by killing the horse from 75 yards.

Such a pointy bullet offered good penetration on a large animal and slipped through men without doing much damage compared to the round ball.

Lots of reproduction molds were made from the time after the war until about the 1970s or so. They worked much better as far as accuracy goes in the original guns with their gain twist tight rifling, not so good for slow twist round ball barrels. Many of these molds were still cataloged until just a few years ago when the companies closed.

In 2002 the Uberti Dragoons had their twist tightened to improve conical and cartridge boolit performance. When the Uberti Remingtons were redesigned in 2007, they too received the faster twist. In 2012 Pietta followed suit with tightening the twist in their Remingtons. Thus far, I am unaware of the .36 caliber guns receiving these changes though my old ASM Pocket Police and an even older ASP '51 Navy had twists of 1:26.

A modern Kaido conical has passed through all 15 water bottles and kept on going during tests by Mike B. A .30-06 usually penetrates just 9 water bottles. The Lee conicals are not in the same league when it comes to knock down killing power.

[Omnivore]

...given the popularity of civil war reenacting (and the movement towards ever greater historic accuracy and realism), I wondered Why a more historically correct mold was not around

Reenactors don't use bullets at all of course. You want they should be shooting each other?

And yes; the 44 pistol, shooting conicals, wasn't about the men but the horses. Killing the horse wasn't the object though, so much as "floundering" the horse. That was the language used, and one of the stated requirements, or so I've read. I don't like to imagine the field testing that might have been done by Ordnance Dept.

Anyway; the cheap, brass display molds sold by Pedersoli are very similar to the molds of the 1860s, having one ball cavity and one "pointy" conical bullet cavity. The antique molds I've seen though were iron, not brass. Do a search for "antique Colt bullet mold" or similar terms and you'll see plenty. You could even buy an original one in usable condition, but they're a pain to use compared to the current designs.

[Omnivore]

I don't remember if it came up yet, but another issue is that a long bullet like that takes up a lot of powder capacity on the chamber, compared to the more compact (shorter ogive, wider meplat) bullets we tend to use nowadays.

[Hickok]

The conicals of the day were much easier to make as a paper cartridge than was the round ball load. The conical boolit itself contained a grease groove, and a rebated area on the bottom of the boolit that not only aided in loading, but allowed a nitrated paper cylinder to be attached to the conical boolit by gluing, tying with string or other means.

The prepaired/made paper cartridge with conical boolit were then made up in paper cartridge packs. Soldiers then simply opened the cartridge packs by pulling a string which ripped the pack open, then inserted the entire paper cartridge into the revolver cylinder and pushed it in with rammer.

THis was faster than loading loose powder and round ball, with wad or grease.