Pros/cons of neck-sizing methods?

[blixen]

What's the difference in using a neck-sizing die like RCBS, a Lee collet die or just backing a full-length die out so it only sizes the neck or part of the neck?

[Hickory]

Any of the three methods will work, one thing to look for is reliable function in your firearm. Next thing would be accuracy, which method will produce an accurate load for your gun.

[lightman]

If you back off on a full length die you will only partially size the neck. I have quit neck sizing except for my custom rifles that have tight neck chambers. With them, I also turn the case necks and use a bushing die. With factory rifles I have found little to no improvement with neck sizing. I've also not found any improvement in case life. It seems that the primer pocket gets loose or the case neck splits, so neck die or fl die does not make much difference.

[Watermelon Wine]

I personally like the Lee collet die for neck sizing.

I used to use neck sizers if I had them, or full length dies unscrewed a few turns if I didn't, and got very good results from both methods.After reading a few good reports about the Lee collet dies I went out on a limb and bought just a single collet die, I think it was for a .243, but I'm not sure now. Well, to cut a long story short I now have heaps of them, certainly when I buy a new rifle a collet die for that caliber is ordered on the same day.

Pro's would be;

* It's a pretty good way to 'help' keep everything straight, the de-capping pin centers in the flash-hole, and the mandrel is held straight from that point up.

* 'Working' the brass is minimized. I really, *really* like this aspect. Remove your expander and neck size a case and measure it, then expand it and remeasure... In some sets of dies it's easy to see (by the huge difference) where the split necks used to come from.

* A little known 'trick' for people who like Ackley improved cartridges, is that cheap and cheerful Lee collet dies can be used to neck size many, if not most of them!

Cons would be

* If you don't set them up right, they either don't work, or blow their own tops off... (I've never had either of these happen to me but have read about it so must include the warning.)

* Difficult for people living outside of the US to adjust neck tension. In the states if you want half a thou more grip you just post your mandrel off to Lee with $5, but in Australia you have to put it in your drill press and polish it down with emery paper.

[243winxb]

The difference is accuracy. For speed and easy to use, with full ajustment of neck sizing, bushing dies. Not all neck wall thickness is the same between brands of brass. The bushing make adjustments for this. The Lee collet die is good, so i am told, but many have problems getting it right Seem you need to put 25 lbs on the lever to get the neck tension to hold a bullet. Or custom mandrels are needed. http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/List/Index/13/product-support http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Redding_1.jpg Lee has all the answers to fix it.

[OS OK]

This Lee die looks like a good way to size the necks so that they will not further swage a cast boolit down from its oversized and intended O.D. Looks like the belling of the case mouth will have to be dealt with next.
Thanks for the tip.

OS OK

[joesig]

Backing off a die only sizes the top part of the neck. You may find that advantageous, certainly if on a budget.

I have started to buy the bushing dies. I have read a report of a gentleman getting better accuracy from using an M die (not screwed down tight) with jacketed than just resized. Still, as mentioned above, I don't see the benefit of over necking down and then necking back up with little control over each diameter. Okay, and I just HATE the feel of the neck expander ball screeching as you neck up.

The bushings, especially the carbide one$, are very expen$ive but it is nice to be able to size/control neck tension to exactly what I want. With with checked cast boolits I have found it saves me a step and I just size and seat.

[OS OK]

Backing off a die only sizes the top part of the neck. You may find that advantageous, certainly if on a budget.

I have started to buy the bushing dies. I have read a report of a gentleman getting better accuracy from using an M die (not screwed down tight) with jacketed than just resized. Still, as mentioned above, I don't see the benefit of over necking down and then necking back up with little control over each diameter. Okay, and I just HATE the feel of the neck expander ball screeching as you neck up.

The bushings, especially the carbide one$, are very expen$ive but it is nice to be able to size/control neck tension to exactly what I want. With with checked cast boolits I have found it saves me a step and I just size and seat.

Have you polished the expander mandrel, ball, to a mirror finish or tried using the powdered graphite to lube the inside of the necks to alleviate this 'screeching' business? This can also affect pushing/pulling the shoulder and changing dimensions.
In the end, regardless of approach I want to see minimum run out of less than .005" so that is a problem for me too.

OS OK

[blixen]

Thanks. I'm not N sizing for accuracy. I do it for case life. I have a 7x57 collet that works fine. But it doesn't seem to do anything that screwing out the sizer doesn't do as well (and I don't have to buy a collet die!).

And I don't get the point of a neck sizing die--like RCBS--at all. Particularly because I neck size only as much of the neck as I have to, under the theory that the less sizing done the longer the case lasts.

note: I only shoot cast boolits at low to moderate loads in bolt action rifles. I usually FL size for levers.

[MakeMineLead]

I like the Lee Collet Die.

You our can use a .308 Collet Die in conjunction w/ a wAsher Over a case seated in the shellholder to neck size 7.62 X 54R ;-)

[blixen]

I like the Lee Collet Die.

You our can use a .308 Collet Die in conjunction w/ a wAsher Over a case seated in the shellholder to neck size 7.62 X 54R ;-)
Good to know. I may see if a similar deal can be set up for other odd-ball cartridges I shoot--Argentine and .300 Sav.

[MT Chambers]

For best accuracy, neck sizing should be best, interchangeable bushing neck sizing dies are best. This is of course if you are using reloads in the same chamber, you should also get longer case life and less trimming.

[Watermelon Wine]

Good to know. I may see if a similar deal can be set up for other odd-ball cartridges I shoot--Argentine and .300 Sav.

With a lathe and ingenuity, it's all possible! I lopped off a .308 collet die to work on a .30BR, the big problem to solve was how to 'fix' it back to .308 improved dimensions! [smilie=l:

[Geezer in NH]

Collet die by anyone. Lee is the cheapest and works great

[Mytmousemalibu]

I like the Lee Collet Die.

You our can use a .308 Collet Die in conjunction w/ a wAsher Over a case seated in the shellholder to neck size 7.62 X 54R ;-)

Little easier than the path I took. I bought Lee NS-collet die parts for .303 Brit and 7.5x55 Swiss and made my own dedicated 54R die since Lee does not produce one as a regular item! It did require turning a little length off the base of the collet itself but it turned out very nice in the end!

[W.R.Buchanan]

I use a Lee Collet Die for my .303 brass. it works great on these cases and doesn't work them hardly at all. On Rimmed Cases like .303 if you F/L size them you will only get 2-3 reloads as the shoulder gets blown forward with every shot. They separate right above the case web.

I was lucky and learned this here before I started wasting brass. I have not lost one yet, over both full power and cast loads.

I have a gun now chambered in .35-303 and I will probably buy another .303 die and pull the collet and open the hole up to whatever is appropriate and get a .358 Mandrel to go with it.

To make the cases I start with new .303 brass and run them into a .358 Win die part way to open the case mouth up with the expander. Then Load and Fire Form.

Randy

[EDG]

If you use a FL die to partially size the short neck of a case with little taper like a .243 you will also size the body some. When you squash in the body a little it will push the shoulder forward and make the round difficult to chamber.


Thanks. I'm not N sizing for accuracy. I do it for case life. I have a 7x57 collet that works fine. But it doesn't seem to do anything that screwing out the sizer doesn't do as well (and I don't have to buy a collet die!).

And I don't get the point of a neck sizing die--like RCBS--at all. Particularly because I neck size only as much of the neck as I have to, under the theory that the less sizing done the longer the case lasts.

note: I only shoot cast boolits at low to moderate loads in bolt action rifles. I usually FL size for levers.

[blixen]

If you use a FL die to partially size the short neck of a case with little taper like a .243 you will also size the body some. When you squash in the body a little it will push the shoulder forward and make the round difficult to chamber.

aha! That answers my question about neck sizing dies. Tnx.

[fecmech]

I use the Lee collet die with my Savage 340 30-30 because I'm lazy and it works great and no need for lube. I load on my Lyman Spar T turret just like I'm loading pistol cartridges. Accuracy is sub 2 moa with both pb and gc bullets up to 1600 fps(which is all the faster I want to go).

[sparky45]

So, just exactly how do you convert a FCD into a neck sizing die?

[blixen]

So, just exactly how do you convert a FCD into a neck sizing die?
If I,m understanding your question... You simply back the full-length die out--away from the base--until the case only goes in far enough to make contact with the neck, but doesn't squeeze the sides of the case.

Or do you mean something more permanent?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Sparky: You don't,,, they are completely different dies.

There are two types of Lee Factory Crimp Dies.

1. Ones for Pistol Cases which are nothing more that a Taper Crimp die with a Carbide Ring in the bottom to iron out any bulges you put in the case when loading it to insure it will chamber.

2. The Rifle Factory Crimp Die uses a collet which gets shoved into a taper by the shell holder which closes it around the case mouth to form a 4 segment crimp generally placed in the cannelure of the bullet. These are cartridge specific as the collet length is critical to the placement of the crimp on the case mouth.

Then Lee also has a Collet Style Neck Sizing Die. It works the same way that the crimp die does except instead of just making a small impression on the case mouth it squishes the whole length of the neck around a mandrel which defines the final neck diameter.

Hope this explains this for all.

Randy

[joesig]

Have you polished the expander mandrel, ball, to a mirror finish or tried using the powdered graphite to lube the inside of the necks to alleviate this 'screeching' business? This can also affect pushing/pulling the shoulder and changing dimensions. In the end, regardless of approach I want to see minimum run out of less than .005" so that is a problem for me too. OS OK Sorry for the delayed reply. I have not used lube. I have polished or reshaped and polished some of the balls and that has helped. So has wet tumbling. I completely agree the friction can move the brass around in unwanted ways. Even on a good day, it just strikes me as unnatural to use force on the up stroke of the handle. I do need to get off my butt and make a run out gauge to see if these fancy dies help as much as I'd like and polish my techniques.

[OS OK]

Sorry for the delayed reply. I have not used lube. I have polished or reshaped and polished some of the balls and that has helped. So has wet tumbling. I completely agree the friction can move the brass around in unwanted ways. Even on a good day, it just strikes me as unnatural to use force on the up stroke of the handle. I do need to get off my butt and make a run out gauge to see if these fancy dies help as much as I'd like and polish my techniques.

I bought the Run out indicator some years back…expecting it to confirm that I was making 'jim dandy' rounds…well…It was a slap in the face with a cold dead fish, my 'ego' was crushed when I saw my .308 match rounds at .008 to .010" run out and only occasionally under .005". That sent me back to the books…had to buy a 'Benchrest Shooters' book that addressed these symptoms that the usual loader is not aware of. BRS's are an entirely different group all together…talking about OCD whoooyaah, mine is nothing compared to them! But…the bottom line here was it took me into another level of loading with much narrower parameters that seems to have stuck with me…can't help it any more and that's one of the reasons I still ask so many technical questions. No matter how many years you have pulled that press handle, there is someone who knows something through experience that you don't know.

OS OK

[WFO2]

Right there with you man. Been there done that made me take extra care in case prep and buy some new 308 dies.

[flashhole]

Do you turn the necks on your brass for uniformity? If yes, another option is to have the neck of your FL sizer die reamed to the exact OD you need to size your brass with the tension you want. This allows you to remove the expander ball that can cause runout problems when pulling the expander up through the neck.

[OS OK]

Do you turn the necks on your brass for uniformity? If yes, another option is to have the neck of your FL sizer die reamed to the exact OD you need to size your brass with the tension you want. This allows you to remove the expander ball that can cause runout problems when pulling the expander up through the neck.

The neck expansion ideas for the Bench Rest crowd means to turn those necks and then use the bushing. Then came the neck size only die that would prevent the growth of the ctg. case neck length. Without turning those necks you won't be able to control the run out and get it down to .002" or less.
This was too much effort for me as I decided that if I could keep them under .005" I'd be satisfied. If you cull those necks that cause the problem you can have a really overall good batch done by conventional means.
We can chase this to a point where the purist start loading by entirely different means, different presses and dies, neck turning etc…and then among them there are the purist who think that things can 'only' be done by a certain methodology and mfgrs. eqpt. …it get's deep fast! Expensive too.

OS OK

[dudel]

I use the Lee Collet die for 22Hornet brass. Case walls are very thin, and it's just too easy to collapse the brass with FL die. The collet dies eliminate that risk. I have two guns that shoot 22 Hornet. Both are single shot (Contender and Handi). I keep their brass separate.

Also, no need to lube with the collet dies. Very little "working" of the brass. For the truly OCD among us, I've been told to run the brass into the collet die, lower the ram, turn the brass 90 degrees, and give it one more run through the collet die. This is supposed to help concentricity.

[OS OK]

I use the Lee Collet die for 22Hornet brass. Case walls are very thin, and it's just too easy to collapse the brass with FL die. The collet dies eliminate that risk. I have two guns that shoot 22 Hornet. Both are single shot (Contender and Handi). I keep their brass separate.

Also, no need to lube with the collet dies. Very little "working" of the brass. For the truly OCD among us, I've been told to run the brass into the collet die, lower the ram, turn the brass 90 degrees, and give it one more run through the collet die. This is supposed to help concentricity.

Whoever told you that knew what he was doing…it works. Well, 'mostly works'. When I received my concentricity gage I tried this, (standard RCBS, LEE & Hornady die sets) even to the point where I only turned by 120 degrees (3 times, incrementally) per round. This method will sort those necks really fast, then cull them to a separate batch to be dealt with as you see fit.
You meant 180 degrees, right?

OS OK

[sparky45]

Sparky: You don't,,, they are completely different dies.

There are two types of Lee Factory Crimp Dies.

1. Ones for Pistol Cases which are nothing more that a Taper Crimp die with a Carbide Ring in the bottom to iron out any bulges you put in the case when loading it to insure it will chamber.

2. The Rifle Factory Crimp Die uses a collet which gets shoved into a taper by the shell holder which closes it around the case mouth to form a 4 segment crimp generally placed in the cannelure of the bullet. These are cartridge specific as the collet length is critical to the placement of the crimp on the case mouth.

Then Lee also has a Collet Style Neck Sizing Die. It works the same way that the crimp die does except instead of just making a small impression on the case mouth it squishes the whole length of the neck around a mandrel which defines the final neck diameter.

Hope this explains this for all.

Randy

Thanks Randy, that's what I needed to know.

[kenyerian]

I use the Lee Collet die for 22Hornet brass. Case walls are very thin, and it's just too easy to collapse the brass with FL die. The collet dies eliminate that risk. I have two guns that shoot 22 Hornet. Both are single shot (Contender and Handi). I keep their brass separate.

Also, no need to lube with the collet dies. Very little "working" of the brass. For the truly OCD among us, I've been told to run the brass into the collet die, lower the ram, turn the brass 90 degrees, and give it one more run through the collet die. This is supposed to help concentricity.
This is very good advice. I do the same thing with the hornet. Really helps your brass last and gives you the most accuracy as well. A win win situation.

[dudel]

Whoever told you that knew what he was doing…it works. Well, 'mostly works'. When I received my concentricity gage I tried this, (standard RCBS, LEE & Hornady die sets) even to the point where I only turned by 120 degrees (3 times, incrementally) per round. This method will sort those necks really fast, then cull them to a separate batch to be dealt with as you see fit.
You meant 180 degrees, right?

OS OK

LOL, the old timer said 90 (quarter turn). He may have meant 180 (I'll never know now). I think 2 turns of 120 would be good as well. In any event, it seems to help. Can't complain about my 22Hornet loads. I was worried about the Handi (it didn't do well with factory ammo). I needed the factory ammo because 22H brass is very, very hard to find. Single shots ensure that I don't lose any brass!

[OS OK]

LOL, the old timer said 90 (quarter turn). He may have meant 180 (I'll never know now). I think 2 turns of 120 would be good as well. In any event, it seems to help. Can't complain about my 22Hornet loads. I was worried about the Handi (it didn't do well with factory ammo). I needed the factory ammo because 22H brass is very, very hard to find. Single shots ensure that I don't lose any brass!

Here goes the OCD thing agin but I experimented with three different die sizers lots of fired brass and turning methods and pull it out and check the concentricity. I would mark the the side of the case neck that was reading high on the gage beforehand. I watched that high mark move laterally around the neck as it went into that old RCBS die. The method regardless of how you do it will not completely off set the discrepancy depending on whether the problem is with the neck needing turning or whether it is with the die as stated.
I kept at until I almost forgot what I was trying to accomplish, looking at my scribbled notes and then getting confused over which ctg. was which test…I had to walk away and start fresh a week or so later…still frustrated on return. Just how much 'attention to detail' is really required?
Now I'm frustrated again at how frustrated I was then…think I'll just get a bigger hammer.

charlie

PS…the Hornady competition die set does the best job with my .308.

[joesig]

BRS's are an entirely different group all together…talking about OCD whoooyaah, mine is nothing compared to them! But…the bottom line here was it took me into another level of loading with much narrower parameters that seems to have stuck with me…can't help it any more and that's one of the reasons I still ask so many technical questions. No matter how many years you have pulled that press handle, there is someone who knows something through experience that you don't know.

OS OK

Amen! There is always something to learn or relearn! That's one of the more interesting aspects of this hobby.