158 gr SWC in 9m

[hornetguy]

I was messing around with some cast 158gr SWC bullets, and ran them through my .356 Lee sizer die. I loaded up a dummy round, and it hand-cycled through both of my 9mms without any hiccups....

So, now I want to work up a load to see how they REALLY work. I could probably do some extrapolation, but thought I'd ask here to see if anyone has any good loads for that combination... I have a few different powders I can try... 700X, 231, Unique, Blue Dot....even some old Scot Solo 1000...

Any info would be appreciated...

[Artful]

I use the Lyman 358311 RN over VV N320 - I use as suppressor fodder, quite reliable in Several handguns - besure and taper crimp because of the boolit gets shoved back the pressures skyrocket.

[hornetguy]

Thanks for the reply... guess I'll just wing it....

[lotech]

I've never tried #358311 in the 9mm. However, the only powder I've heard recommended for this bullet was Bullseye, though others propellants would probably be fine. I tried Lyman's #356637 some years ago, not long after it was introduced. From wheelweight alloy, it weighed 157 grs., but was undersized at .356" or .357" and shot poorly. Lyman's data for this bullet shows it weighs 147 grs. from #2 alloy. The stoutest loads I tried were slightly below Lyman's recommended maximum. The Lyman data may provide a starting point for the #358311, but I would reduce even beginning loads as your bullet may have more bearing surface than #356637 and (not sure on this) it may be longer and require deeper seating.

Hopefully, a knowledgeable 9mm / #358311 user will provide a more meaningful response. Good luck-

[EMC45]

I ran the discontinued Lee 150gr. SWC through my Belg./Port. BHP and they ran like a top. Don't have my book with me, so I can't comment on powder or charge weight, but they were accurate and fed and ejected just fine.

[Artful]

Hopefully, a knowledgeable 9mm / #358311 user will provide a more meaningful response. Good luck-

I guess it's not more meaningful as I don't have any load data for the powders he listed 700X, 231, Unique, Blue Dot....even some old Scot Solo 1000.

And I don't generally give exact load information as it's a liability thing.


Hornetguy did you google up 9x19 158 grn reloading data?
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=9%20mm&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/google.php?cx=partner-pub-6216953551359885%3A1942134700&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=9mm+158+grn&sa.x=13&sa.y=16&siteurl=castboolits.gunloads.com%2Fshowthread.php% 3F39485-158-gr-9mm-load&ref=www.google.com%2F&ss=8136j4537466j23

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190346

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?43315-Reloading-Subsonic-9mm/page3

[hornetguy]

I did a google search at work, but couldn't check any of the sites...company internet watchdog won't allow sites with "weapons".. I'll check again here at the house. I've got three of the Lyman manuals and they show 147 gr loads, so I can get a starting point..just thought I'd see if anyone had any suggestions...
Thanks..

Not sure how "liable" you'd be, though. I've never quite understood that.

[hornetguy]

I checked some of the links provided and it appears the 158 is really too long a bullet for "comfortable" loading in the 9.... it can be done, but it can go south pretty quickly..
I think I'll shelve this project...
Thanks again...

[tazman]

I checked some of the links provided and it appears the 158 is really too long a bullet for "comfortable" loading in the 9.... it can be done, but it can go south pretty quickly..
I think I'll shelve this project...
Thanks again...

If you are looking for a heavy boolit for 9mm, NOE makes the 358-155-tc(ELCO). It was designed for the 9mm from the start and works great. It is also available with a hollow point configuration which makes it a 147 grain. It is the second most accurate boolit I have for my 9mm pistols. The most accurate is the NOE 358-135-FN.
For further information on the NOE 155 tc check out this link http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?278539-Elco-tc-hp

By the way, I use AA7 for this load with a charge weight of 5.5 grains. This is for the 147 grain hollow point version. Works great in my Beretta 92FS. Your mileage may vary.

[Boolseye]

Yep. Best shelved. been there.

[hornetguy]

Taz.... I wasn't really looking for an extra heavy bullet... I was just surprised to see how easily the dummy cartridge cycled. I had some of these commercially cast 158's and found they sized down nicely. It was more of an experiment "of convenience"..

I'm thinking that if I start casting for the 9, it'll probably be the Lee 125gr round flat point. I've got the mold already for my 38spec, just haven't used it yet.

[Boolseye]

Taz, I'm definitely drooling over that NOE ELCO mould. I have the 358-135 you mentioned and love it. I usually cast HPs with it.

[tazman]

Taz, I'm definitely drooling over that NOE ELCO mould. I have the 358-135 you mentioned and love it. I usually cast HPs with it.

I have used that boolit and load in 4 different 9mm firearms with superb results in all of them. Taurus PT92, Beretta 92FS, Ruger Blackhawk convertible, and a Cheyenne semi-auto carbine. The carbine gets 1 inch groups at 25yards. The others get what you would expect for that gun.

[Boolseye]

I wonder if you would be willing to post a picture of a couple loaded rounds with the ELCO. Particularly interested to see the HP version.

[tazman]

Here are the pictures you requested.
165964165965165966165967
Notice in the pictures of the boolits, you can see the shiny area where I ran it through the sizer just below where the nose taper starts. That is where I crimp the boolit into the case.
You can see the size of the hollow point.
The last picture is the result of the plunk test using the barrel of my Beretta 92FS. The case seats completely with no effort into the chamber. This is with the boolits sized to .358 and loaded of a OAL of 1.125.

[Boolseye]

beautiful. It just looks like a really intelligent approach to a 9mm thumper. I'll bet they hit like a hammer. Interesting barrel set-up on the Beretta.

[tazman]

I live about 50 miles on the opposite side of the quad cities from Morrison. Approximately 90 miles away from there.

[ArrowJ]

I was reading Introduction To Collecting The 9mm Parabellum Cartridge, and I ran across a 170 grain 9mm load! It made me think of this thread...carry on.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/documents/Introduction-to-9mm-Luger-Cartridges.pdf

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160413/198b8f2947484cfba262cd06251ed66c.jpg

[tazman]

That is a whole lot of bullet for a 9mm.

[ArrowJ]

Yes, there were no details. I am curious if it would just be so big that it would pass a point of diminishing returns i.e. not enough powder to push it hard enough to be more effective than a smaller bullet pushed faster.

[C. Latch]

I've loaded a few Lee 358-158-SWC-TL (I think that's the name) bullets in 9mm under light charges of 700-x and a couple of other powders. I seat them as long as I can go and still chamber them, and load them with 147 grain starting charges.

[Artful]

Yes, there were no details. I am curious if it would just be so big that it would pass a point of diminishing returns i.e. not enough powder to push it hard enough to be more effective than a smaller bullet pushed faster.

Most times that I have found heavy bullet loads for 9mm it's for suppressed use. IMI used to import 158 blue nose ammo that was designed for use in UZI SMG with Suppressor. Dr. Dater in one of his suppressor books had the history of S&W Pistol & Hush Puppy wiped can used by SEAL Teams in snatch raids.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b390/FrogBait4/fruitcake/hushpuppy1a.jpg
http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y421/Miltech1/hushpuppy2_zps35f1fc1a.jpg (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/Miltech1/media/hushpuppy2_zps35f1fc1a.jpg.html)
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/LogSu2/SWHPMK22_zpse4a46771.jpg (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/LogSu2/media/SWHPMK22_zpse4a46771.jpg.html)
http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/hushpuppy_in_seal_museum.jpeg
http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/seal_mk_22_with_ammo_and_suppressor_internal_wipe_ kit_below-300x205.jpg
MK 22 Mod 0 w/ Hush Puppy and ammo and recharge of wipes.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/LogSu2/A147000display_zps0e7a9277.jpg (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/LogSu2/media/A147000display_zps0e7a9277.jpg.html)

[ArrowJ]

Thank you for posting that! Gave me the feeling I used to get when I was a boy reading gun magazines. Fun stuff.

Am I understanding correctly that the slide was held shut during firing? As in, fire, rack, fire, rack?

I wonder if the Brits were after the same thing with those 170 grain monsters? I will have to look at the article again. I do not think it said.

[Artful]

Yes MK22 came with a slide lock.

British 9x19mm Heavy Ball
During WWII commandos and other special forces were issued with specially silenced sub-machine guns. A number of silencer designs were tested but by 1943 the Mark IIS Sten was on issue fitted with a special barrel with a long silencer attachment. By early 1945 this had been supeseded by the Mark 6 Sten, a silenced version of the Mark 5.

All these weapons used standard British 9mm ammunition, but by 1945 the Ordnance Board had formed the view that in future a standard weapon should be used fitted with a detachable silencer. They recognised that this would probably need a reduced charge cartridge.

Trials with Patchett machine carbines fitted with a detachable silencer and using reduced charge ammunition were carried out in 1946/47. The ammunition was loaded in ROF Hirwaun 1945 cases fitted with an unringed nickel primer with a purple annulus and identified by a coloured extractor groove.

The colour codes were:
Purple extractor groove Charge weight 1.8 grains of nitrocellulose.
Red extractor groove Charge weight 3.3 grains of nitrocellulose.
Green extractor groove Charge weight 3.7 grains of nitrocellulose.

Later in 1947 a different approach was adopted; the use of heavy bullets to give a low velocity within safe chamber pressure limits. The velocity had to be below the speed of sound so was set at 900 fps. Initially .380 revolver bullets, sized to 9mm, were tried and this led to the development of a bullet weighing between 170 and 175 grains to be used with regular 9mm propellant. For bullets weighing less than 170 grains it was thought a new propellant might be needed.

Most of these early rounds were loaded into 1945 dated cases from ROF Hirwaun or Blackpole but they were actually loaded in about 1948 using primed empty cases from stock.

Between 1948 and the early 1960s various bullets were tested, including some in intermediate weights of 160 and 165 grains, these being produced by having a cavity in the base of the 170 grain bullets. A further batch of 150 grain bullets were loaded in 1971.

The 170 grain flat based bullets presented a problem as the internal walls of the 9mm case were tapered and would interfere with the base of the bullet and also reduce powder capacity. To overcome this a special case was designed where the internal walls were parallel for about 10mm down from the mouth of the case. These cases carried a special headstamp that omitted the "2Z", i.e. "RG 62 9MM (+)".

[ArrowJ]

Very cool. I have to say that has all the earmarks of a government project. I wonder if someone was thinking, "ok, you want me to run some 9mm cases with different internal dimensions so you can shove a 170 grain bullet in there? That is probably the best solution. I will get right on that."

[ironhead7544]

I have been using heavy bullets in the 9mm for many years. It seems the longer surface gives good accuracy. No need to resize the bullets as the Lee Factory Crimp die will correct any problems. I find the LFC is necessary as some brass will raise a bulge when the bullet is seated all the way to the inside taper. I run the longest length that will plunk and fit in the magazine. With the LRN bullets designed for the 38 Super, that will be about 1.160.

Function has been 100% in a large number of 9mm pistols, carbines and SMGs. I use Unique with the loads from loaddata.com. Velocity runs about 1000 fps from a 16 inch carbine and 925 or so from a pistol.

I have loaded the 158 gr SWC which worked OK. COL will probably have to be set for each firearm.

One good thing about this type of light load is that the brass does not get thrown very far. This will vary a bit but the carbine and SMG empties are generally dropped right at your feet.

[6bg6ga]

I loaded 160 gr rn in a 9mm and the results were good. It fed good and shot well.