Good tip - hope it helps someone

[AK Caster]

After being involved with several classes that taught "rookies" how to handle and shoot CCW's I became aware of one serious issue.

If you are considering purchasing a semi auto pistol for a loved one, or going shopping with them in their search make dang sure they have the hand and arm strength to rack the slide before buying. I bet 35-50% of the ladies at the firing line couldn't rack the slides of their piece.

[DerekP Houston]

After being involved with several classes that taught "rookies" how to handle and shoot CCW's I became aware of one serious issue.

If you are considering purchasing a semi auto pistol for a loved one, or going shopping with them in their search make dang sure they have the hand and arm strength to rack the slide before buying. I bet 35-50% of the ladies at the firing line couldn't rack the slides of their piece.

eh, similar results for my course but you didn't have to limit it to ladies ;). I couldn't believe how many people there were with brand new guns.

[45workhorse]

Wheel guns, Wheel guns!!!!!!!
For those that don't (won't) practice! Not a dang thing wrong with them. They work, even after sitting in a drawer for ten years!

[Fishman]

Wheel guns, Wheel guns!!!!!!!
For those that don't (won't) practice! Not a dang thing wrong with them. They work, even after sitting in a drawer for ten years!

I'll add to that. Also not a dang thing wrong with them for those of us that do practice.

[rking22]

But.. Glock dosen't make a wheel gun........:bigsmyl2:

[ReloaderFred]

We run into this all the time in our classes. The other thing we see a lot of is physically understrength people who have purchased an ultra lightweight revolver for their first handgun and then try to qualify with it with +P or even magnum ammunition. Those two combinations just discourage new shooters.

I'd like to see all new students start with a .22 handgun, so they can learn the basics without getting beatup in the process. Once they learn how to shoot, then they can move up to something bigger.

Hope this helps.

Fred

PS: If Glock made a wheelgun, they'd just screw it up........

[Half Dog]

PS: If Glock made a wheelgun, they'd just screw it up........

TeeHeeHee. I'm not a Glock fan either.

[jimb16]

I was an instructor for many years. What stories I can tell. One guy bought a semi for his wife that was an absolute piece of ****. I don't know how long he lived after I asked him in front of his wife why he was trying to get her killed! (Yes he deserved it!) Then there was the guy who showed up in complete tactical gear with reloaded ammo that left a bullet stuck in the barrel. (He was not using the factory ammo that I required for the class.) And I'm not a Glock fan either. I like the feel of steel!

[AK Caster]

Maybe this would also surprise some of you but more than a few ladies really take a shine to something like a S&W 442 or S&W 60 shooting light 38's after experiencing the frustration of trying to master a semi.
Some of the ladies have great tastes:)

[wv109323]

I totally agree. One factor that contributes to the problem is that a small blow-back auto needs a heavy spring to control the slide. This makes the problem worse with the small autos.
I have read that one instructor found that a .22 Mag. revolver was well liked with the ladies he taught.
Another tip, My wife is a petite lady with the same problem of racking the slide on most autos. I introduced her to a S&W Bodyguard .380. She was able to rack the slide on that pistol. It may be one model to recommend to ladies.

[rking22]

Really hard to beat a steel frame 38 snub as a first CCW for Anyone,, simple,reliable,and accurate. No fighting with the slide and cut thumbs, and the "magazine" dosen't have a spring, just 5 (or 6) empty "holes", pretty intuitive ! Not much time spent on malfuntion drills either, "pull the trigger again", OK ,got that. Only downside is learning to shoot it well takes some trigger time, whats not to like! Keep the +P stuff for later, lots later. I too carry a full wadcutter on 3.5 of bullseye, accurate and pre expanded :)
I also would like to see everyone start out with a 22LR to learn on, but some people only want "one gun". That one gun has to be a good experience. As much as I love old SW revolvers, I typically recomend a Ruger LCR in 38,for those who are not comfortable with used guns, now-a-days anyway.
Just my opinion, YMMV

[Traffer]

We run into this all the time in our classes. The other thing we see a lot of is physically understrength people who have purchased an ultra lightweight revolver for their first handgun and then try to qualify with it with +P or even magnum ammunition. Those two combinations just discourage new shooters.

I'd like to see all new students start with a .22 handgun, so they can learn the basics without getting beatup in the process. Once they learn how to shoot, then they can move up to something bigger.

Hope this helps.

Fred

PS: If Glock made a wheelgun, they'd just screw it up........
I totally agree with the first gun being a 22. That is why GOD INVENTED 22 rim fire. To be everyone's first gun. I thought everyone knew that.

[MT Gianni]

I totally agree with the first gun being a 22. That is why GOD INVENTED 22 rim fire. To be everyone's first gun. I thought everyone knew that.
Yep back when a 50 rd pack of 22 cost $0.59 that made sense. Any competent caster can make 32 or 38's just as quiet and kick just as soft.

[jcren]

I was in a local gs that has cc classes on the weekend and there was 2 ladies buying ammo....40s&w ammo. I talked to them a minute and found out that a guy friend had loaded them a couple guns for the course. One had never shot and the other had not shot in over 20 years. The guns were a Taurus 704(?) slim and a Taurus compact mellinum. I tried to warn them. I almost lost a Taurus slim in 40 the first time I shot it!

[shoot-n-lead]

Yep back when a 50 rd pack of 22 cost $0.59 that made sense. Any competent caster can make 32 or 38's just as quiet and kick just as soft.

Not hardly.

[bedbugbilly]

It isn't limited to the ladies. I took the MI CPL class with an older friend of mine - he's about 82 or 83. He had purchased a S & W .380 Bodyguard because he liked the looks of it and the size. He had all kinds of trouble with it during the range time due to his arthritic hands - racking it, loading the mags, etc. He has stuck with it but at the time, I suggested he look for a good 38 snub such as a J frame, LCR, etc.

I'm older and my hands aren't what they used to be either. Luckily, I can rack my SR9 and 9mm Shield. I mainly carry them when I want to feel a little bit better about "capacity" depending on where I'm going to be . . . but old habits are hard to break and I still find that I favor my Smith Model 36 snub - just plain easier to load and shoot for me.

Everybody has their "favorites" . . . but when a person is going to select a handgun . . . it should be "their favorite" and not yours. That goes for everyone, young and old, man or woman. It is "their" handgun and they need to have something that they can operate easily and learn to shoot accurately at SD ranges. What is unfortunate is that so many go through the CCW classes, get permitted and carry but fail to practice on a regular basis to hone and keep their shooting skills. It's kind of like "birth control" . . . you can learn all you want to about it, but if you don't practice it . . . there are consequences.

[roundgun]

38 with soft shooting wadcutter is always a great place to start. Most shooters I start with this combo and 22, lots of happy faces at end of the day.

[Rustyleee]

I've been hearing a lot lately about the LCR in .327 Federal. You can load .32 S&W for practice and .32 H&R or . 327 Federal when things get real. My wife likes revolvers so I was thinking about one for her.

[mjwcaster]

Technique plays a huge part.
Most people try to hold the pistol with their strong hand and then rack it by pulling the slide towards themselves.
Using their weak hand with the weakest motion.

Use the same hands, but change to holding the slide still and punching out the pistol.

Uses strong hand with a strong motion.

Now once the student can rack the slide we have to work on locking the slide.

Grip the gun with the strong hand as usual.
Use the thumb to apply upward pressure to the slide lock, rotating the around the grip as necessary to reach the slide lock.
Now punch the gun forward, holding the slide with the weak hand as before.

Done correctly the slide locks back automatically in one motion.

It takes a few tries to get it right, but once it works it becomes easier and easier.

This has worked for almost all our students, young, old, big, small, man or women.

Even those in wheelchairs or using a walker to get out to the range.

And many of our students have never fired a handgun before in their lives, but with a little work almost all can manage to operate the slide.

Hard to explain, easy to demonstrate.

Also I have changed from the train them on a 22 mindset.

It is an unfortunate fact that the only training that many of our students will ever get is our class, so we strongly recommend using what they would carry.

If they do not have a gun, they will be using one of our 9mm's, probably a shield or compact/subcompact glock.

I keep a 22 with me in case it is needed, but have not used it in class in a long time.
We also have full size guns available, but they do not get used much.

Now my 38 does get some use when someone has issues with snub-nosed 38, or 357.
Train on a full size revolver until comfortable and then transition back to their snubbie.

Our minimum goal is to have students keeping all shots on a piece of printer paper at 10 yds, of course better groups are preferred.

And our students can.
I am still amazed how quickly most people can learn to shoot decently if they have a little instruction, and are willing to listen.
That last part is most important.
Our new shooters often shoot better than the more experienced who have developed bad habits.

Fun to watch a wife who has never shot before shoot better than her husband who has been shooting forever, but has bad habits.

[NavyVet1959]

I've seen a lot of women who let their husband / boyfriend select the handgun for them end up with a slide that they cannot operate. The problem seems to be their grip strength on holding the slide. They might have the strength to pull back the slide, but they don't have the strength to actually hold onto the slide. There are a couple of devices that companies make to put on the slides of certain brands of handguns that gives the shooter a lever sticking out the side(s) or a ring in the back to pull on. That helps for a lot of the women. Personally, I think women should start out with a Ruger Mk-II for their first semi-auto. Because of the low spring weight and the way that the slide / bolt retracts, not much grip (or arm) strength is needed. Let them build their confidence on that and then move them to something more socially respectable. As reloaders, we have the ability to tune our ammo for them so that it could be powderpuff loads and use a reduced weight recoil spring so that they can operate the slide more easily. My wife has a problem with grip strength, so I just give her a fully loaded Taurus 92 and tell her to make those 18 rounds count if she can't rack the slide. It's a DA/SA, so all she has to do is flip the safety and pull the trigger. For her, I prefer that the first trigger pull is a heavy DA one. I would not trust her with a Glock since it is basically carried in Condition-0. With a M1911, she would probably be safe with it in Condition-2.

[Pb Burner]

Many years ago we found out my wife has the same problem(partially due some medical issues), so I started thinking of something like a Baretta Tomcat, or a revolver. Then we found out she could barely stroke the trigger on a few lower end revolvers that had fairly heavy trigger pull. Not much money in those days, was checking out the cheap stuff.
Then the guy at a LGS handed her a S&W revolver and told her to dry fire it. Guess what she likes now!
Sometimes guys at work will ask what I'd recommend when they are considering CCW, if they are not regular shooters, I always recommend them not to buy until they consider a revolver. If for no other reason than simplicity of operation, especially in a stressful situation.

[Mica_Hiebert]

I have also seen a woman shoot the ceiling of an indoor range because she didn't have the finger strength to shoot a doa smith revolver. And I quit carrying my sp101 due to mystery lock up issues so revolvers arnt perfect either. Just sayin. Shoot what you like train with what you shoot.

[NavyVet1959]

Many years ago, when I was MUCH younger and naive, I had the experience of an "urban youth" attempt to rob me with a short barreled .38 Special revolver. There was much struggling with me trying to keep the barrel pointed away from me while he continued to pull the trigger and fire. There were a couple of clicks, but a lot of fires though. Best I can tell, it was the first round that hit me, but thanks to the adrenaline, I didn't know I had been shot. I didn't realize it until the cops came to take him away. What I took away from this is that a revolver is pretty idiot proof -- just keep pulling the trigger and if it doesn't go bang on a particular round in the cylinder the first time around, it might do it when that round comes back for the next time. If he had been using a semi-auto, it's entirely possible that my grip on the barrel would have prevented the slide from cycling and only the first round would have gone off. Another thing that I took away from this is that when you have someone with the barrel right by your head during a struggle, your adrenaline is quite high. When you are that focused on trying to not get shot and beat the crap out of your assailant, you don't realize you've been shot until after the cops come to take him away. I might have been shot, but I made hamburger meat out of his face / facial bones in the asphalt of the parking lot. Just in case ya'll were wondering -- it's not anything like what you see on TV -- it's a LOT more chaotic...

If you are fighting over a semi-auto gun, you're going to be hard pressed to cycle the action if it did not eject the last round properly. Revolvers have a bit of an advantage in that aspect. If the person does not maintain a 100% hold on the cylinder, continued pulling of the trigger will result in another round being fired.

Just thought I would put out this bit of personal experience in case it helps anyone...

[NavyVet1959]

I have also seen a woman shoot the ceiling of an indoor range because she didn't have the finger strength to shoot a doa smith revolver. And I quit carrying my sp101 due to mystery lock up issues so revolvers arnt perfect either. Just sayin. Shoot what you like train with what you shoot.

The only problem that I have ever had with a revolver was when I first started reloading for them and I did not seat the primer deep enough. The primer was sitting slightly raised and it prevented the cylinder from rotating.

[Handloader109]

Mjwcaster has the right idea, one added note to the technique is to really lock up your wrist, elbow on the side that you are holding the slide with, also without pointing muzzle at your leg, try and press your arm into your abdomen while holding tight..... Helps my wife if she remembers. She bought g17 after using the instructor's worn out gun.... Think he had a 5lb spring on it, or she was running on adrenaline the whole class.... My issue right now is that I'm starting to get bad arthritis in my hands and grip is getting much worse. The stupid glock is much harder than my PPQ or my 9mm 1911 so..... I expect that my wife's real carry will be a wheelgun

[contender1]

Ok,,, I'll add my 0.02 worth.
My wife has been running NRA Women On Target clinics for 15 years now. She has been so successful AND effective,,, that the NRA selected her as one of their top 10 female instructors from all across the country. They even had her go to HQ to be part of a focus group on how to get more ladies involved in shooting AND be successful at it.
Now,,, I'm her instructor, and yet in her classes,,just her lowly assistant.
Why?
Because women are different than men & think differently.
All that said,, we approach our clinics with an open mind, and a big selection of handguns for the ladies to handle, study, shoot & learn on. But,,, we ALWAYS start them out with a .22 RF to get them acquainted with shooting properly first. And yes, the 22's are semi-autos. We teach them all the basics using the 22's.
Then we step up to a selection of 38's & 357's using nothing but 38 spl ammo.
Lastly, we move to a 9mm semi-auto. IF any of them have brought their own handgun, and or other calibers,,, we do allow them to use them as well,,,, after using our stuff. And for the ones who ask,,, we do let them sample other guns & calibers.
But when we point out the fact that a semi in general, for most people uses 2 hands to get into battery, and to operate in case of a jam, vs a DA revolver that only uses one hand, they study that fact. Next,, when we point out the fact that a semi can jam if fired from inside a coat or purse, while in most cases,, a DA revolver will keep working,,, that fact sinks in too.
Basically we point out that for most people who do not become muscle memory friendly with a handgun, the KISS method is best. The simplest, easiest to operate, mostly infallible, handgun that can always be operated with one hand, in any awkward body position, (such as during an assault,) for the masses who do not spend a lot of time shooting, is the DA revolver.

And for nay-sayers,,, I challenge you to take an elderly lady, fill a magazine with ammo, in her favorite semi-auto, put an empty case in the action simulating a stovepipe jam, put her on the floor, grasping her dominate hand, give her the gun in her off hand & tell her to clear it & fire at a target.

[StrawHat]

Here is a modification that helps with the 1911 style autos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXZcjZLxsMs

Myself, I prefer a revolver but this would have helped my Pop.

Kevin

[Texantothecore]

I always recommend a 38 sp revolver. Doesn't jam, you don't have to be careful to not bend the lips of the magazine and they are way easier to clean.

That usually gets their attention.

[FergusonTO35]

As much as I love wheelguns I think the heavy DA pull can cause as many problems as a slide that is hard to rack. Proficiency with double action beyond contact distance requires practice and attention to technique, especially one handed. Add in small, integral sights that most snubs come with and you have a gun that is not what I would call beginner friendly. Don't get me wrong, I love my S&W 637 but if I had bought it when I was just getting into handguns I probably would have sold it in frustration.

Yes, revolvers can jam.Thick cartridge rims, worn hand or ratchet, sticky cylinder bolt, weak springs, short stroking the trigger, debris in the lockwork; I've seen it all.

[Outpost75]

My observation has been that the ladies can handle the Ruger LCR more easily than the S&W J-frames. The DA pull is easier and the grip fits better. That being said, I sure wish Beretta would make a compact, tip-up barrel, all steel version of the 3032 INOX in .380 ACP. The tip-up barrel makes it easy to check the chamber and clear or load the pistol, because you don't have to rack the slide. The Tomcat has good ergonomics for small hands. The .32 ACP is more reliable than any rimfire.

Unfortunately the Beretta Pico is not as well engineered as the 3032 INOX.

But basically I am a wheelgun guy who likes old Colts and newer Rugers...

[truckerdave397]

Wife and daughter both like shooting the LCRs. 38 wad cutters for the wife and 22 long rifle for the daughter. I try to keep them happy so they keep shooting. My only issue is that neither one would even think of looking for or buying ammo.

[NavyVet1959]

That being said, I sure wish Beretta would make a compact, tip-up barrel, all steel version of the 3032 INOX in .380 ACP. The tip-up barrel makes it easy to check the chamber and clear or load the pistol, because you don't have to rack the slide.

What about the Beretta Model 86?
http://www.berettaweb.com/Beretta%2080/Beretta%2086.htm

[ghh3rd]

My FIL bought a Taurus pistol in .40 cal. when he as 70 - I don't know how easily he could rack the slide back then. Now he's 72 and couldn't rack the slide at all when he brought it out to show it to me. I told him to sell it, and get a revolver, but I doubt he will, cause "the .40 is the best round".

[Texantothecore]

I have never tried to rack a slide when the pistol is wet. It could be a real problem

[Hickok]

Years ago, found a nice stainless Walther PPK .380 and thought it would be great for the wife. (After some polishing of the feed ramp to cure malfunctions) I took her out for a session with the pistol. Alas, she could not pull the slide to chamber a round. That little pistol was very accurate too.


After that, a S&W j-frame .38 Special fit the need perfectly.

[tdoyka]

I always recommend a 38 sp revolver. Doesn't jam, you don't have to be careful to not bend the lips of the magazine and they are way easier to clean.

That usually gets their attention.

my brother's wife had a kel-tech in 9mm. she hated it. it was hard to rack the slide, had a trigger pull that was God awful, bent the lips of magazine(she dropped it) and it constantly made a stovepipe jam(before she dropped the mag).

she traded it for a charter arms undercover lite in the 38 spl. no jams, easier to clean, no racking the slide...just point and shoot.

[ghh3rd]

By the way, I had the most trouble racking the slide on a Buckmark .22 that used to own. I couldn't believe how difficult that thing was for a .22 cal.

[NavyVet1959]

My FIL bought a Taurus pistol in .40 cal. when he as 70 - I don't know how easily he could rack the slide back then. Now he's 72 and couldn't rack the slide at all when he brought it out to show it to me. I told him to sell it, and get a revolver, but I doubt he will, cause "the .40 is the best round".

Depending upon the model, it might be possible to create / modify something like these:

http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/brass-stacker-glock-slide-pull4.jpg
http://351685206.r.lightningbase-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/DSC_1076-778007.jpg

[rking22]

I have a Beretta 86(tipup 380), fantastic little pistol. I have a concern that it is lacking an extractor. Clearing a malfunction of ammo would be something of an issue under stress. Thats why I did not give it to my daughter as initially intended. She has a SW M36 due to the dramatically lessened malfunction rate. Yes I agree revolvers can malfunction but it is a rare occurance vs the chances of limp wristing, slide interference or just a bad round of ammo. Learning to shoot a snub effective at SD distances is really not that big an issue, especially since you are spending more time shooting and less learning how to operate the firearm under many different circunstances. The LCR trigger is notably lower poundage than a Smith(main reason I reccomend them), but niether is an issue for most folks I have introduced to revolvers. Personally I like DAO autos as a second choice to a 38 snub, for CCW, if I want more power or capacity. I am presently testing(playing with) a Kahr CW45 and am impressed. That is for my own use, YMMV an that's why we have all the choices we have.

[Seeker]

I was at a LGS one day with my son in law. He was looking at compact semi autos. Now he has a sr40, sr9c and a 1911. I asked him why and he said he wanted to get one for his wife. I told him that I knew my daughter more than he did and explained the rest. He walked out with a nice little ultralite 38 special wheel gun.

[mjwcaster]

I like the lcr also, best trigger pull I have found on a reasonably priced modern defensive revolver.
I recommend revolvers for most shooters, but few listen.
Go over the manual of arms for each type-
Semi-auto, loading, unloading, showing clear, racking the slide, clearing jams etc.
Revolver- swing open the cylinder, all holes empty, it is unloaded.
Drop some cartridges in, close cylinder.
Failure to fire, pull the trigger again.

I ask people to be honest with themselves, are they really going to spend the time training to familiarize themselves with a semi-auto?
Most won't.
Even I do not spend enough time on failure clearing.
But no one wants to listen, everyone buys a semi-auto.

I also part time at a gun store that does a huge transfer business besides our own sales, almost all semi-autos.

Even worse is those that buy single action semi-autos and have no idea what that means.

Had a guy come in to have a Smith check out his 1911, said it just went off.
Finally got the real story out of him, he was decocking it with a loaded chamber, dropped the hammer, gun functioned just like it should and he shot his table.

See lots of the new micro kimber 380 single action only being sold to people that don't have a clue.

Just transfered a little .25 the other day.
Boss and I just about yelled at him when he mentioned he was going to pocket carry with no holster.
No manual safety, light trigger pull with very little take-up.
Actually felt like a nice little gun, but an uncovered trigger on that gun is a recipe for disaster.

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

[mjwcaster]

Wet hands were mentioned.
Get a little soap and water on your hands and practice your draw and failure clearing.
Also step outside during the winter until your hands start to become numb and then try the same thing.

Also head to the outdoor range when it is below freezing and function test your guns and gear.
I am amazed how many issues I see in class when the temp drops below even 40 degrees.

Also clean new guns before shooting, just talked to a guy who was complain about his Taurus pt111-g2, he sent it back to Taurus and they said it functioned fine.
I asked him if he had cleaned it, as they are imported swimming in oil.
Of course he hadn't, just blamed the gun.
Hear this many times, my new gun won't function.
Have you ever cleaned it?
Uhh, no, why?

Walthers are good for this too, as are many other imports that ship dripping in oil.

Even I made this mistake recently, working up dummy loads for the wife's new unfired shield, had to shorten up oal to pass the plunk test
Came back to the bench another day, decided to clean the gun before taking it out to finally fire it.
While cleaning I realized what I had done the other day.
Rechecked my test rounds and my normal lenght ones plunk tested just fine.
The chamber was just gunked up.

And I should know better.

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

[Windwalker 45acp]

I always show them to push and pull at the same time... get both hands/arms working the action. It's worked every time for those not strong enough with just trying to use the weaker off-hand to rack the slide.

[Texantothecore]

Wet hands were mentioned.
Get a little soap and water on your hands and practice your draw and failure clearing.
Also step outside during the winter until your hands start to become numb and then try the same thing.

Also head to the outdoor range when it is below freezing and function test your guns and gear.
I am amazed how many issues I see in class when the temp drops below even 40 degrees.

Also clean new guns before shooting, just talked to a guy who was complain about his Taurus pt111-g2, he sent it back to Taurus and they said it functioned fine.
I asked him if he had cleaned it, as they are imported swimming in oil.
Of course he hadn't, just blamed the gun.
Hear this many times, my new gun won't function.
Have you ever cleaned it?
Uhh, no, why?

Walthers are good for this too, as are many other imports that ship dripping in oil.

Even I made this mistake recently, working up dummy loads for the wife's new unfired shield, had to shorten up oal to pass the plunk test
Came back to the bench another day, decided to clean the gun before taking it out to finally fire it.
While cleaning I realized what I had done the other day.
Rechecked my test rounds and my normal lenght ones plunk tested just fine.
The chamber was just gunked up.

And I should know better.

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

Thanks for the tips on cold weather and cleaning. Very useful.

[snoopy]

I think, that the regs for ccw in at least the states I'm familiar with are the problem. If you qualify with an auto, you can carry any type, but with a revolver you can only carry a revolver, hence so many showing up with autos. My wife has very bad arthritis,but with some aforementioned methods can use my smith, and did to qualify. But, that is a controlled environment. We found the Walther ppk to be one of the easiest to rack, but I did buy a sig and she thinks its easier, I kind of hope she doesn't like it.