1895 in 35WCF

[TXGunNut]

Went by Cabelas for my weekly game of cat & mouse in the Gun Library and eyeballed an old Winchester I hadn't taken notice of before. It's a nice enough 1895 in 35WCF. Wasn't familiar with that cartridge but after a little research I learned it would probably make an excellent pig gun. Only problem is I have too many pig guns, despite what my late friend James often said on the subject, lol. Looks like Jamison and Bertram still make brass for it, looks like BACO makes some out of 32-40 (?). The 1895 is probably my least favorite JMB design but I'll have one someday, probably not this one, tho.
Last week I fondled an 1873 in 38-40 built in 1894, IIRC. Bore was remarkably good and the exterior was nice, especially for a 122 year old rifle. It was just a standard rifle with a trapdoor butt plate so I think it was overpriced @ $5K. Rifle was offered to me at a much better price but may be able to do even better in a month or two.
They also have a very nice 92 in 44WCF, a cartridge I would rather avoid but it could work if the price was better. Manager told me they'd bought a collection of Winchesters recently but he didn't know much about them. My checkbook needs another month (maybe six!) of recovery but I'll drop in next week just to get teased again. Every now and then they buy something and don't know what they have, that's kinda fun. ;-)

[lead4me]

Got to Love/hate that 1895 rifle, have one in 38/72. I have almost half of what I paid for it in setting up to make rounds for it. But....I had wanted one for a long time and when the opportunity came up I had to have it. Now that I do I really like it, developing loads, reforming brass and of course shooting it. With Cabela's figure they have half of what they are asking for any given rifle into it.

[StrawHat]

If you read what the old writers have to say about the 1895, it is hard to understand how it survived in the Winchester lineup for 45 years. I felt the same way, based on what I read. Then, I got to handle one, a carbine chambered in 30 US (30-40 Krag) and found it very different than what had been described. Eventually, I got my own rifle in 30 US with a rotten bore. A perfect candidate for what I wanted so it went off to a gunsmith and was reworked into a 405 WCF. It handles like a dream and with modern powders, I can duplicate factory loads or load it to match the older 40-72. The 40-72 loads or a little hotter, are what I normally use.

165244

Yeah, I like it.

Kevin

[Tatume]

Hi Kevin,

What rear sight do you have on the M1895?

Thanks, Tom

[TXGunNut]

Very nice, Kevin. I'm a little curious about that sight as well.

[Reverend Al]

I have an 1895 Winchester in .35 WCF with a shooter bore that I picked up a couple of years ago since I've always liked anything in a .35 calibre rifle. I plan to stretch some .303 British cases in my Kal Max case stretcher and form full length cases for it. I managed to find a .35 WCF full length sizing die on "evilBay" and then will use my Lyman M die to neck expand and my .358 Winchester seating die to seat and crimp. I'll try that out and see what happens when I get time to play with it ...

[TXGunNut]

Sounds like a plan, Reverend Al. Which boolit are you planning on using?

[Reverend Al]

Sounds like a plan, Reverend Al. Which boolit are you planning on using?

I'm planning to try several different boolits in my rifle since I have several .35 calibre moulds to play with ranging from the RCBS 180 silhouette and 200 grain fngc to older Lyman moulds in 225 and 250 round nose. I even have an old "Ideal" version of the # 3589 mould that throws a huge bullet of about 300 to 310 grains depending on alloy hardness. (My particular example of that mould casts a huge, oversized "as cast" bullet of about .366" so it has been used to load in a few European 9.3mm rifles over the years too!) I suspect that I'll likely settle for whatever I can get to shoot well in my old 1895 in a 225 to 250 grain boolit ...

[smokeywolf]

The the best of my knowledge, there were only 2 receiver sights put on the model '95 in the Winchester shop; the Lyman 21 (the climbin' Lyman) and the Lyman 45.
I kind of prefer the Lyman 45

[StrawHat]

I have an 1895 Winchester in .35 WCF with a shooter bore that I picked up a couple of years ago since I've always liked anything in a .35 calibre rifle. I plan to stretch some .303 British cases in my Kal Max case stretcher and form full length cases for it. I managed to find a .35 WCF full length sizing die on "evilBay" and then will use my Lyman M die to neck expand and my .358 Winchester seating die to seat and crimp. I'll try that out and see what happens when I get time to play with it ...

Reverend Al,

Less work but a little more $

http://www.captechintl.com/proddetail.php?prod=35WIN20pcs

Kevin

[StrawHat]

Hi Kevin,

What rear sight do you have on the M1895?

Thanks, Tom


Very nice, Kevin. I'm a little curious about that sight as well.

Fellows, that is an old Lyman but I am not sure what number. I am not a fan of either version of the Lyman 21, either version, rather preferring this style of receiver sight.

165340

Kevin

[Dan Cash]

Don't sell the 1895 short. They grow on you as you discover their absolute perfection. My go to rifle is a 95 in .30-40. It is accurate and powerful enough for 200-250 yard shots (iron sights) and quite pleasant to shoot. Not sure I could say the same about one in .405 but we don't have anything around here that needs that much killing.

[Wayne Smith]

Fellows, that is an old Lyman but I am not sure what number. I am not a fan of either version of the Lyman 21, either version, rather preferring this style of receiver sight.

165340

Kevin


I have a Japchester in 405 and got a copy of that sight from BACO several years ago.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

35 winchester is based on the .30-40 Krag/.303 British/ .405 Winchester for case rim and head dimensions (.35 Rem is a shortened rimless .35 Winchester). 303 British will work but is short, Hornady does make .405 Winchester brass. It should neck down without too much trouble, trim to length.

[Bent Ramrod]

I have a Model 95 in .35 Win. In full house loadings it seemed to be about as powerful as a .405, and maybe a little more accurate. My only experience was with one borrowed .405 and factory ammo the owner wanted to shoot up for reloading, so maybe I'm missing something.

I was planning on using .38 pistol boolits for plinking, but found a 358318 hollow point mould and use those instead. Also have a mould for the 358315 I haven't tried out yet.

The shells are easily made from Hornady .405 brass and seem to last forever. I resize in the FL .35W die, trim and anneal.

It's a very well made rifle; seems more closely fitted than most other lever guns.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I read a bunch about this round when I was trying to find load data for the .35-303 that I had made by having an Enfield bored to .35 cal. There is no load data for the .35-303 round perse', but I was advised by JES to start with .35 Rem data and work up from there.

The .35-303 is very similar to the 35 Krag which is a necked up .30-40 case. There was an article in Handloader Mag on the .35 Krag and.35 Win. was included in that article, and is essentially a .405 case necked down to .35 cal.

The .303 is very similar to the .30-40 but with a shorter neck. Both operate in similar Pressure Ranges, so a lower starting point was accepted as safe.

Generally speaking, the .35 Win is slightly hotter than either of the other two cartridges. I couldn't find any Load data in my oldest Manual, Lyman 45 which has some "Obsolete Cartridges." But the .35 Win was not among them.

The cartridge will easily push 200-250 gr boolits and just like so many others will kill anything in N/A and most of the rest of the world as well. You will simply have to make your own ammo, which doesn't appear to be all that hard.

Never been a big fan of the Win 1895 as there is a lot of monkey motion involved with the lever, however that doesn't mean they aren't viable firearms and a lot better than lots fo other stuff available at that time. Their big advantage is the ability to shot pointed bullets which you can't do with other Lever Guns.

Besides JMB didn't make a whole lot of losers.

Randy

[Reverend Al]

Reverend Al,

Less work but a little more $

http://www.captechintl.com/proddetail.php?prod=35WIN20pcs

Kevin

Well, unfortunately that is not too much of an option for me since Jamison is US based and I'm up in Canada so they can't ship this brass to me even if I wanted it. At today's exchange rates plus shipping, etc. it would wind up at about $45 or $50 dollars Canadian per 20 rounds of brass ... ouch! (And I already pay less than that for new Starline .50-70 Govt brass through one of my Canadian distributors!)

Again, I've already bought a Kal Max case stretcher last Christmas (a present to myself) and plan on lengthening some of the hundreds of rounds of once fired .303 British brass that I already have into full length .35 WCF cases. I'll let you know how it works out when I get the time to play around with it. If I absolutely have to, I already have 100 rounds of brand new Hornady .405 brass sitting on the shelf in my reloading room and could always reform it into .35 WCF if I get too impatient to set up my Kal Max case stretching jig ... but I'm still hoping to find an affordable 1895 Winchester in .405 to use that brass in!

http://kal.castpics.net/CaseStretcher.html

[TXGunNut]

LOL. May have to fondle the old girl next time I'm down that way. Best I can tell it's a couple of hundred fps faster than the 35 Rem with a possible fondness for boolits a little heavier than the Rem cartridge likes. I probably have moulds covered but dies might be interesting. I've always found the Lyman 21 interesting but will heed the advice posted here.

[Ural Driver]

I have an 1895 (mfg. date 1899) that I've hunted with since I was old enough to carry it all day.
It is 30 Gov (30/40 Krag) ain't pretty but it still hits what its aimed at and I still love shooting it.

[StrawHat]

...Well, unfortunately that is not too much of an option for me since Jamison is US based and I'm up in Canada...

Reverend Al,

Sorry, I missed your location when I replied. I have the same problem when I find a good deal in Canada, import taxes and etc.

Kevin

[Reverend Al]

Reverend Al,

Sorry, I missed your location when I replied. I have the same problem when I find a good deal in Canada, import taxes and etc.

Kevin

Yeah ... life was so much simpler 20 years ago. We used to make regular trips down to Seattle and the surrounding areas to shoot IPSC matches and always stocked up on the way home. Can't do that anymore though as they often have "spotters" watching the sporting goods store parking lots for Canadian licence plates and they'll stop you and seize anything you bought before you cross the border. The crazy part is that I can buy (or sell) reloading dies or boolit moulds across the border, but I can't buy brass or bullets for reloading and have them shipped or we're both in big trouble. Sigh ...

:sad:

[RU shooter]

35 winchester is based on the .30-40 Krag/.303 British/ .405 Winchester for case rim and head dimensions (.35 Rem is a shortened rimless .35 Winchester). 303 British will work but is short, Hornady does make .405 Winchester brass. It should neck down without too much trouble, trim to length.
learned my gun trivia for the day ! Now I know why my old Lyman seater die is labeled 35rem / 35 wcf .

Tim

[John Taylor]

Several years ago a customer sent an 1895 takedown and wanted a two barrel set made. There are four different magazines for this rifle and I ended up converting a 30-06 to handle the 40-72 and 405. I had plenty of ammo to test it with so started with the 40-72 and found the rifle pleasant to shoot. When I switched to the 405 I only shot it once, that thing will hurt you.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

The 405 had a reputation for punishing recoil, especially if the curved buttplate was even slightly misplaced. The cartridge is a big one and launching a 300 grain bullet at around 2200fps gives a muzzle energy figure at somewhere around 3300 ft pounds;that is well over a ton and a half so your shoulder is going to be aware of what is going on. My 95 has a shotgun style buttplate and that is not fun either so I load my 405s down quite a bit. LLS

[TXGunNut]

Pretty sure I'm not much interested in a 405, even TR remarked about the recoil and he was a pretty tough fellow. At this point in my life I doubt I'll ever get to hunt anything that needs that much killing. Never say never, lol.

[smokeywolf]

Only way I'd buy a model '95 in 405 is if it's a takedown. I'm thinking that the 405 cartridge would be a great candidate for BPCR and quite a bit less punishing to my 60+ year old shoulder. The '95 in the takedown configuration is very easy to clean.
With a takedown, if you ever wanted to, you could make a second barrel and forend as long as the cartridge dimensions were similar to the original chambering so that you don't have to mess with the box magazine.

Example: I'm betting the magazine in a model '95 chambered for 35 Win is likely the same one used in those chambered for 30-40.

Takedown on a model '95 would allow for a barrel change in about 30 seconds.

[StrawHat]

Several years ago a customer sent an 1895 takedown and wanted a two barrel set made. There are four different magazines for this rifle and I ended up converting a 30-06 to handle the 40-72 and 405. I had plenty of ammo to test it with so started with the 40-72 and found the rifle pleasant to shoot. When I switched to the 405 I only shot it once, that thing will hurt you.

How hard was it to swap out and convert the magazine?

Kevin

[bob208]

you can also make .35 Winchester out of .444 marlin. I have a 95 take down in .35. also one in .30-40.

[Reverend Al]

you can also make .35 Winchester out of .444 marlin. I have a 95 take down in .35. also one in .30-40.

Hmmmm .... thanks for that one! I didn't even think about that possibility! I'm sure that I have a BUNCH of .444 Marlin brass down in my shop that a friend "gifted" to me and I don't own a .444 Marlin! (And if I reform that brass into .35 WCF then I won't get "crazy" and go out and buy a .444 Marlin!)

[StrawHat]

...And if I reform that brass into .35 WCF then I won't get "crazy" and go out and buy a .444 Marlin!...

Get that 35 Winchester up and running and you won't need a 444!

Kevin

[Reverend Al]

Get that 35 Winchester up and running and you won't need a 444!

Kevin

Yep ... that's the plan! Now if I can only figure out WHERE I put that .444 Marlin brass?

:?

[MostlyLeverGuns]

You might have some trouble trying to use .444 Marlin brass for .35 or .405 Winchester - the head or base diameter of the .444 is .470" while the head or base of the .35 or .405 is .457" : rim diameter for the .44 is .514" with the .35 and .405 at .539". There are enough differences that it is more than a simple resizing operation. The smaller rim could cause feed or extraction/ejection problems and the larger head diameter may not size down enough without special dies or turning. It can be done, but it will be work and the smaller rim could be a problem.

[TXGunNut]

Have been offered an 1896 vintage 1895 in 30 Gov (30-40 Krag). That's right, first model, straight sides. Bore appears to be very shoot-able but finish is well-worn. Price in line with condition. A solid shooter, not a museum piece. Meeting with the seller this coming weekend. Other guns from this collection may be available.

[muskeg13]

I converted a 30-06 carbine with a bad barrel to .35 WCF a few years ago without too many problems. The hardest parts were reworking the stock and barrel band to accomodate the thicker barrel contour of the .35 Win., opening the bolt face to accept the rimmed cartridge, and I had to modify the carrier arm to better feed a rimmed cartridge. All the other '06 parts could be used as is. The sight is an original Lyman Model 38, which has a windage adjustment knob, as opposed to the Model 21's set screw windage adjustment. I formed .35 WCF cases by slowly and carefully sizing Hornady .405 cases down in many stages, using STP and Imperial case lube, then triming to the correct neck length. In short order, the process could be sped up by rough trimming the .405 cases to slightly over the desired finished overall length before beginning to size them down in the .35 Win die. The .35 WCF was easy to develop accurate loads that duplicate (or slightly exceed) factory original ballistics.

166028 166029 166030Lyman Model 38 166032 166033.405WCF/.35WCF 166034 166035

[Reverend Al]

Hmmm ... I think I still have some IMR4064 ... and maybe a few 250 grain round nose Hornady bullets too! Did you come up with any cast boolit loads that worked well in yours?

Looks like the .444 Marlin brass might not work quite as well as I'd hoped, so it's back to "stretched" .303 British cases or I might just have to break down and reform the 100 rounds of Hornady .405 Winchester brass that I have on hand to get this project under way ...

[Reverend Al]

(And there is always that ONE darned flyer, isn't there?)

:sad:

[smokeywolf]

Swell job on the model '95 muskeg13. Beautiful rifle. Although I love all the Winchesters, the model '76, '86 and the '95 draw me. Guess I like the bigger cartridges.

[Clay M]

I use to collect the '95's I owned the .35 win .It was a fun rifle with cast bullets.
The .405 win and the Krag were the two I liked best.
I still own two original 95's in the .405 win.Both made in 1913
Perfect bores . One is stamped Lyon and Lyon Calcutta ,India.I figure it was used for Tiger hunting back in the day.
The other has a rifle buttplate .I use it for hunting many years ago.
The 95 in .405 win is kind of an obsession for me.
They are fantastic cast bullet rifles.
I also own two of the Winchester reproductions.
They are breathtakingly accurate with the right bullets and loads.

I remember as a small child sitting at my fathers chair looking at the old Lyman
Manuel of cast bullets and saying....
Father , I want a rifle chamber in the .405 win.
So my obsession goes back a long way.

[TXGunNut]

Beautiful rifle, muskeg13. Thanks for sharing the pics. Haven't seen that model of Lyman sight, very interesting. I fondled a carbine similar to your but it seemed a bit odd. Is your front sight ramp integral to the barrel?

[muskeg13]

I haven't done any cast boolit load development with the .35 WCF, but my new model .405 shoots cast even better than jacketed. I installed a 24" rifle length .35 WCF barrel on the '06 carbine action. The front sight ramp is milled integral to the barrel and takes a narrow width 3/8 dovetail insert. The old .30-06 barrel was 22", also has a milled ramp integral to the barrel, but it uses a pinned sight blade. I've read several places where the smooth action of 1886s are praised, but my 1895s, both new and original, are much smoother (and I think faster) actions than my Miroku 1886.

[TXGunNut]

Passed on that First Model 1895 tonight, bought a couple of very interesting 1894's from the same collection instead. Used my Lyman bore cam to check them out and the 1895 was the worst of the bunch but still very shootable. I guess I just don't much care for the 1895. I couldn't find any issues with this gun and as I mentioned it's a very early production rifle, SN under 1500.

[Clay M]

Passed on that First Model 1895 tonight, bought a couple of very interesting 1894's from the same collection instead. Used my Lyman bore cam to check them out and the 1895 was the worst of the bunch but still very shootable. I guess I just don't much care for the 1895. I couldn't find any issues with this gun and as I mentioned it's a very early production rifle, SN under 1500.

I like the old '94's with the octagon barrel in .38/55 win.

They are really fine shooters.

[TXGunNut]

I like the old '94's with the octagon barrel in .38/55 win.

They are really fine shooters.


Funny you should mention that, a 1901 vintage 94 as you describe is nearing the top of my project list. Cool part is I have a commemorative (Legendary Frontiersmen) that likes that same boolit and load as the old one. Both shoot quite well. Old one has the octagon barrel and I've learned to appreciate what a sweet old round the 38-55 truly is.

[TXGunNut]

Well, I decided I was wrong passing up that early (pre-1500 serial number!) 1895 in 30US but I got a chance to correct that mistake a little while ago. Had some trade bait along and they gave me a fair price on both of them so my little collection just got a lot more interesting. :bigsmyl2: Doing the soak & scrub thing tonight. It has some type of small mounting plate dovetailed into the rear of the bolt, suspect it had some type of peep sight at one time. Also has what may be factory slings. Will submit an inquiry to my friend @ Cody shortly, could be very interesting.

[MT Chambers]

Here in Kanada the model 95s you find are usually .303 British, like the one I have, which wears a copy of the model 21 side mounted sight made by Peabody.

[TXGunNut]

Love that Peabody sight, never seen one on an early model tho. I'm not sure if anyone made a receiver sight for this rifle. I doubt I'll shoot this old rifle much and some days I shoot the original type of rear sight fairly well. Recently passed along my dad's British Enfield in 303 with a sack of ammo. Now I almost wish I'd kept some ammo or at least the empty cases but...oh well. Not in any hurry to shoot this rifle, too many other projects.

[smokeywolf]

As this is a Winchester focused thread, I feel justified in recommending that those interested in Winchester rifles should look into acquiring the book, "Winchester, The Gun That Won The West", by Harold F. Williamson.

[TXGunNut]

Thanks, will keep an eye out for that one. Just finished Clyde (Snooky) Williamson's The Winchester Lever Legacy and enjoyed it immensely. He was a farmer with a very bad deer problem so he had no shortage of "test medium" for his beloved leverguns. Finally scored Wilson's coffee table book on the Winchester and will peruse that before tackling Madis' legendary The Winchester Book for a second reading.