8x50r Austrian from 7.62x54r Russian

[pill bug]

I've always wanted an 88/90 Austrian Mannlicher, An archaic straight pull from the dawn of small caliber, high velocity military rifles. So, bought the rifle, acquired the essential enbloc clips. have a mold and am going to bite the bullet and send for the very expensive dies (heck,8x50r rifles are not that uncommon). suppose i should of started with new,boxer primed 8x56r brass (yes, they make it!) but could not pass up a bargain and got 200 Winchester 7.62 Russian brass instead.

I'm about to take on the task of forming. I pretty much have an idea of how to do it. (have experience with all the easy ones, (7.65 arg and 7.7 jap from 30/06. 8m/m Lebel from 348 and 32 spl from 30/30) But this one seems a little more intimidating, if for no other reason other than i bought everything from scratch. My other projects were with guns,brass and dies I already had, nothing to lose!

So I hope someone will add "the 8x50 is easy, had no trouble with it at all" (probably would of been with the 8x56 brass, not so much with the 7.62x54!) Anyway, if anyone can warn of any pitfalls or tips to success i'd be thankful.

[WILCO]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?181887-Firer-forming-7-62x54R-for-8mm-Steyr

[WILCO]

http://www.grafs.com/catalog/category/categoryId/793/inline/1

http://www.grafs.com/uploads/product-picture/192/12658.jpg (http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/12658)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I can't quite help you.....but "back when" I did shell out the money for some RCBS custom dies to make 8x56Rmm from 7.62x54Rmm, and that was easy. Still have the equipment, but eventually ready made boxer primed 8x56 brass became available and I bought a couple of hundred pieces. At the time it wasn't particularly easy to get boxer primed 7.62 either. So, those expensive dies are just sitting there on the shelf.....

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The actual case-forming of 762x54R to 8x50R should be quite simple. I believe it should come out with a very usable neck thickness. But the rim needs to be thinner. The figures given in John J. Donnelly's "Handloader's Guide to Cartridge Conversions" are .047in. instead of .065in., but you should thin it no more than will fit the headspace of your rifle.

If you have access to a lathe, this should be no problem. If you don't, you could make up a simple die to squash the rim thinner in a large engineering vice. Or you could use a similar device as a guide to reduce the complete head by that .018in., and deepen the primer pocket with a reaming or swaging tool. That will weaken the solid head slightly, but you are taking a step down in pressures from 7.62x54R to 8x50R.

The rim will also need to be reduced in diameter. Without a lathe I would make up a mandrel to hold the case in a slow-speed electric screwdriver, and hold it against a sharp, finely set carpenter's plane. A high speed electric drill will tend to vibrate or bounce it about.

There is a long shot you should check for, just in case. There was a short-lived 8x52R. Fred Datig in his "Cartridges for Collectors", describes it as a model of 1890, discontinued in 1893 when it was found out that the original 8x50R had enough capacity for smokeless powder. It might have been entirely experimental, and I don't know if any military rifles were modified. I think that it would be safe to fire the 50mm. case, but if you can lengthen the short case neck, it would be a pity not to do it.

[pill bug]

http://www.grafs.com/catalog/category/categoryId/793/inline/1

http://www.grafs.com/uploads/product-picture/192/12658.jpg (http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/12658)
Haha Wilco, these are the ones i should of bought! And at todays brass prices, 64 cents a round is a bargain. Also, Thanks for the gun loads link. A Good read!

[pill bug]

I can't quite help you.....but "back when" I did shell out the money for some RCBS custom dies to make 8x56Rmm from 7.62x54Rmm, and that was easy. Still have the equipment, but eventually ready made boxer primed 8x56 brass became available and I bought a couple of hundred pieces. At the time it wasn't particularly easy to get boxer primed 7.62 either. So, those expensive dies are just sitting there on the shelf.....

But who could of guessed they would start making boxer primed 8x56 brass? I remember buying expensive .348 Winchester brass, then doing all the work to convert it to 8mm Lebel only to find out a short time later that new, boxer primed lebel brass was on the market for what I believe was less than the .348. And, to add insult to injury, if i had not converted the 348 to 8mm would of made some profit selling it again. I understand .348 brass is now ptetty scarce.

[pill bug]

The actual case-forming of 762x54R to 8x50R should be quite simple. I believe it should come out with a very usable neck thickness. But the rim needs to be thinner. The figures given in John J. Donnelly's "Handloader's Guide to Cartridge Conversions" are .047in. instead of .065in., but you should thin it no more than will fit the headspace of your rifle.

If you have access to a lathe, this should be no problem. If you don't, you could make up a simple die to squash the rim thinner in a large engineering vice. Or you could use a similar device as a guide to reduce the complete head by that .018in., and deepen the primer pocket with a reaming or swaging tool. That will weaken the solid head slightly, but you are taking a step down in pressures from 7.62x54R to 8x50R.

The rim will also need to be reduced in diameter. Without a lathe I would make up a mandrel to hold the case in a slow-speed electric screwdriver, and hold it against a sharp, finely set carpenter's plane. A high speed electric drill will tend to vibrate or bounce it about.

There is a long shot you should check for, just in case. There was a short-lived 8x52R. Fred Datig in his "Cartridges for Collectors", describes it as a model of 1890, discontinued in 1893 when it was found out that the original 8x50R had enough capacity for smokeless powder. It might have been entirely experimental, and I don't know if any military rifles were modified. I think that it would be safe to fire the 50mm. case, but if you can lengthen the short case neck, it would be a pity not to do it.

I had heard somewhere that some rifles might handle the thicker rim. But seems like a doable fix to shave them down. will have to experiment to see how modifying the 7.62 brass works out. My son's friend has a 1891 Mosin Nagant and i have 7.62x54r dies so have the option of backing away from the 7.62 and going with the new made 8x56r. Sons friend would be absolutely thrilled if I loaded up 200 rounds for him!

Also good heads up on the 8x52r. The 8x50r neck is really short, any extra length would be a benefit. My Mannlicher was made in 1892, so could be. will have to try a case with 52 mm length and see what happens.

Thanks for the hints!

[chevyiron420]

I used 54R brass for years before I started using the 8x56R stuff. My cases were Norma. I have had no problems with rim thickness with my M95 rifle, but the rim diameter of the 54R case makes it feed from the clips harshly.
Basically, all your going to be doing is necking up and trimming. Make sure your rifle closes completely on your cases for safety sake. If you want some j bullet loads you can push some 250 grain .338 hornady's through a .329 lee sizer.

[websterz]

Haha Wilco, these are the ones i should of bought! And at todays brass prices, 64 cents a round is a bargain. Also, Thanks for the gun loads link. A Good read!

Hey, if you decide to go the easy route I'll buy the brass 7.62x54r cases from you!

[GONRA]

GONRA and a college buddy went thru nearly 500 rds. 8x52R compressed black powder ammo
in his rotating bolt straight pull Austrian Model 95 carbine one day in early 1960's.
Ammo was from a 1000 rd. crate on en bloc clips, 2 full clips / box.
(Was surprised by 8x52R case measurements, expected the ammo to be 8x50R.
Never even HEARD / saw mention in print of 8x52R until years later.)
Cases generally split / disintegrated from internal corrosion.
But no harm done shootin' in the strong front locking rotating bolt action. (We wore goggles.)
One rd. required a second firing in fall, others went bang First Time.
One way or another, Austrians made enough of the rare (?) 8X52R ammo so it was cheep on the 1960's surplus market...

[pill bug]

165814165813

Here is my Mannlicher 88/90 that made it back from the Great War with a duffle bag cut. The front forearm and hardware never got back on the rifle. That was a windfall for me, got a gun with nice metal,mechanics and bore for $200 instead of the $800+ price a like condition complete gun would command. (These are hard to find in anything close to nice shape, most are incredibly beat up)

Also, for fun posted an example from the "incredibly beat up" category. This one never made it off the battlefield.

[Ammo Guy]

Firing 8x52R in an "8x50R" rifle?!?
Copied the excerpt on, (https://www.militaryrifles.com/austria/m1888mannlicher). It says the throats were cut deep enough where the 52mm length case will work OK.
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Subj: info on Austrian Mannlicher cartridges
Date: 4/20/2003 5:31:18 PM Mountain Standard Time
From: gunz@atomic.net
To: KeithDoyon@MilitaryRifles(.)com

​

Keith:
FYI, while researching my book on Mannlicher rifles I discovered the following about Austrian cartridges. According to the Austrian authority, Herr Josef Mötz,* the M.1888 Mannlicher chambered an 8x50R blackpowder cartridge (8mm scharfe Patrone M.88) while the M.88-90 and M.90 rifles and carbines used a semi-smokeless propellent in a 8x52R cartridge (8mm scharfe Patrone M.90). In 1893 a smokeless propellant was perfected and the 8mm scharfe Patrone M.93 reverted to the 50mm case. Due to the generous throats in all Mannlicher straight pull rifle barrels, cartridges of various lengths could be used interchangeably with no problems.

​

Hope this is of some help.
Paul Scarlata

* - Mötz, Josef. OSTERREICHISCHE MILITARPATRONEN, Volume 1. Vienna: Verlagsbuchhandlung Stöhr, 1996.
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I'm going to reform some berdan 7.62x54R brass that I have. I'll try cambering it un-trimmed and see what happens. The longer neck would help compensate for the loong throat.So long as It will fit within the O.A.L. limit of the magazine.
My rifle has the rotating bolt. I'm going to emulate 8x57 pressures. About 4,600 psi lower than 8x56R, (5,100psi). 8o Should still be powerful enough for hunting without the Thump! I've got a 95/24 in 8x57. 198gr Yugo sniper is almost mild by comparison.
Aim High! It allows for bullet drop.
​

[fatnhappy]

Please forgive my ignorance, but in what way does the 8x50R hungarian differ from the siamese 8x50R or are they interchangeable?

My curiousity is piqued but I'm ignorant on the matter.

[15meter]

Now I have to go dig out my load notes, I've formed 8x50R from both 7.62x54R and 8x56R.

Don't remember what was involved.

I do remember that both shot extremely well out of a Watson Bros. double rifle. It was originally chambered in 30-40 Krag. It was rebored and rechambered somewhere along the line to 8x50R.

Two shooters at fifty yards, four shots each shooter, left barrel, right barrel, shot under 2" with iron sights. That was with reformed brass.

Supposition is that it was rechambered during it's tenure in India. There was a law against military chamberings being in private hands. Although the 8x50R was a military caliber, it was superceded by the 8x56R and I suspect not particularly common in India.

On the other hand, 303 British and 30-40 Krag are kissing cousins. Close enough that with some work, you could probably get one to fire in the other.

Never tried cross chambering, that would be an interesting experiment.

Got both, may have to try it when I get the project list below 600:holysheep: