U.S. Mod. 1917 tight chamber?

[blixen]

I have been handloading just long enough to know how ignorant I am. So, maybe someone here can help me with a mystery.

I just got a Enfield Mod. 1917 from an estate sale that has been sporterized nicely. After market-stock, ears ground off, reblued, straightened trigger-guard plate, tapped for scope and receiver sights--- It even has a Timney Trigger.

I handloaded some once-shot brass to try it out this weekend. Various brands, but I segregated it. Some I had shot in my Mod. 70 Winchester 30-06, some I'd never reloaded. I full-length sized it all in an old Herters die that I used with no problems with the Mod. 70.

Here's the problem-- a lot of the resized brass would not chamber! The Winchester, Remington and military did the best, but some of it hung up. The Hornady and Federal were the worst.

I could see the cases jammed about 1/2 inch from being fully into the chamber. I blackened a couple cases and it showed that the tight area was the on the sides of the cases--not the neck or near the head. (I checked the case length and it is OK.) I thought for a second that it had been rechambered to another cartridge.

By full length sizing a second time, a few cases a third time,, I got them to chamber. Once they chambered, the bolt rotated easily on the head.

What the heck? Is the Herters die not sizing them tight enough for this particular Enfield? I would have thought a military chamber would be roomy. Did I use the wrong lube when I resized?

I don't think the barrel has been replaced--it's 5-groove and completely without marks--so anything is possible.

I'm hoping not to have to go through the hassle of casting the chamber. I may buy a box of store ammo and see how it handles that.

So someone give me the simple explanation and I'll slap my forehead.

[Outpost75]

I would use a chamber brush and clean the chamber, then try again. You may have some buildup of old oxidized oil or grease, caked fouling or unburned powder particles in there.

I would also check headspace. The bolt may be mis-matched.

It is also possible that using the Herters dies in a non-Herter press with different shell holder than the die was dimensioned for , that the cases aren't being sized enough. The fact that some worked better after you had sized them repeatedly is a clue. Also, fired brass which has been reloaded several times will have more springback and if not originally fired in that rifle, could give problems. It would be best to start with new brass which has been fired in THAT rifle.

[Gtek]

Try a brand new round, there lies the fork in the road. Also checking head space and confirming chamber clean would make me feel better.

[EDG]

Herter's dies are normally poorly finished which creates a lot of friction when sizing the case.


You can think about the following and take your pick of what to try.

1. Polish the die with 400 grit silicon carbide paper. It will size easier and the case will slide in further with the same force.

2. Use more or a better lube such as Imperial. For heavy case forming I use Mystik JT 6 chassis lube. It is about $4 for a 14 oz tube. messy but effective.

3. Size very slowly and let the cases dwell at the top of the stroke about 5 seconds then rotate and repeat. Rotate and repeat for a 3rd sizing with the dwell. This gives the brass enough time to creep to the new shape of the die.

4. If all of that does not work Lyman FL dies are often shorter and tighter than RCBS.

Make sure your chamber is free of crud.

Once I bought a VZ-24 Mauser in 8X57. It would barely close on a go gauge. Good I thought. Tight headspace.
I cleaned it out and a greasy little piece of kraft paper came out of the chamber. Then I gauged it again and it swallowed the no-go. However it would not take a field gauge.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You might also try a RCBS small base sizer die, part #14831. These are made to size a bit smaller than standard to assure smooth functioning in full and semi-auto weapons.

[broomhandle]

You might also try a RCBS small base sizer die, part #14831. These are made to size a bit smaller than standard to assure smooth functioning in full and semi-auto weapons.

+1 D G!

Hi Sir,
I had the same problem with my new Howa 308 bolt action rifle. Some of the re-sized brass would not chamber in the rifle. All loaded at the same time & same manner! Some of the brass just would not re-size with my standard RCBS dies! I borrowed a pal's RCBS small base die & they re-sized with no problem, but they did grow a bit! Trimmed them again! They have been reloaded (with the standard die) a few times & thankfully no further problems!
I did buy my own small base die off Amazon!

Good Luck,
broomhandle

[blixen]

Thanks all. I scrubbed the chamber. And have prepared 20 rounds with light charges that function smoothly. Going to shoot them tomorrow.

I read that you can do a crude headspace check by putting a layer of masking tape on base of the case. I did and the bolt closed easily--for what it's worth.

after I fire form the cases, will it cure the problem for those cases?

I have a second set of '06 dies that I can dig out, Lyman IIRC. I'll try that sizer next time. EDG, handnt thought of rotating the brass, Tnx.

The serial # was polished off the bolt, btw.

ill look into a small base die, but I'm short on dough. Let you know.

(And I thought .303 Brits were a pain...)

[Taylor]

Exact same problem here.1917 Eddystone and a M70 Winchester.

I have 2 sets of RCBS dies,one new and one much older.

If I use the older set,they chamber and shoot fine in the Eddystone.

At this point,I have no answer,just speculation.Is there a difference in the dies? I don't know.Just that I use 2 sets for '06.It works,so I don't pursue it.

The dies and boxes are not marked as to show any difference.

[Outpost75]

Exact same problem here.1917 Eddystone and a M70 Winchester.

I have 2 sets of RCBS dies,one new and one much older.

If I use the older set,they chamber and shoot fine in the Eddystone.

At this point,I have no answer,just speculation.Is there a difference in the dies? I don't know.Just that I use 2 sets for '06.It works,so I don't pursue it.

The dies and boxes are not marked as to show any difference.

There "may" be difference in dies, but most certainly THERE ARE differences of as much as 0.005" in shell holders! Take out all of your shell holders and start measuring their height with a micrometer.

Try sizing with the shortest one, adjusting the die body so that you get firm contact at the top of the stroke. If anything needs to be modified, ALWAYS GRIND ON THE CHEAPEST PART - the shellholder! It doesn't take much to clean about 0.005 off the top surface of the shell holder with a flat diamond stone and oil.

[blixen]

Thanks again for the help. Outpost, I use Lee shell holders, so I'll measure them against other makes and try grinding or buying another brand. I think you might be on to something.

Followup: I took the 1917 to the range.
-- Great trigger and I got a promising (4" at 100 yards) group with a random test load of 8.5 grains of WW540 (from 1979) under a Lee 175 flat point (.310").

Several of my handloads were difficult to chamber, but showed no sign of excessive pressure. Of course, I was using low-potency plinker loads in the first place.

I noticed a problem that might be a symptom or just a characteristic of U.S. 1917s. When I brought the bolt up after firing to eject the shell, it turned easily, but required a 'pop' with the palm to take it that last fraction of an inch to release the lugs. Then it extracted fine and ejected with no issues. Is that last bit of force on opening the bolt a trait of the 1917? (I know it takes a bit of force to close the bolt because it's cock on closing.)

I was sitting at a bench with a scope on the rifle, so working my bolt actions is always clumsy.

[flounderman]

Unless the barrel has been cut off, there should be a lot of proof marks, the flaming bomb The date. The original was about a 26 inch. Sounds like it could have been rebarreled. Head space has nothing to do with it. Herters dies were not the best, but they worked. It don't make any difference what make press you use them in. You can get a small base sizer. I would suspect the chamber rusted. After you fire a case, examine it for scratches in the tight area. The lube don't make any difference, except some let the case go in and back out easier. If they eject hard, you have a rough chamber probably. I just checked one and the barrel is just slightly smaller that the receiver ring. If it was rebarreled, it probably is smaller than the ring, noticeably. Several marks close to the receiver and one that I think was the flaming bomb on top directly ahead of the receiver. If the barrel is military, it has some corrosion in the chamber. If it is a rebarrel, it could have a tight chamber.

[blixen]

I'll post some photos off what I find regarding marks. And I'll try to get a better look in the chamber.

btw, I dug out my other 06 dies, Champion Auto CA. I experimented with a couple cases and the Herter sizer is tighter than the CA. and it seems the biggest sizing problem is with the Federal brass.

[blixen]

I checked the chamber with a flexible light--it's smooth and clean.

I looked closely at the barrel. As you can see in the photo, any proof marks have been nearly polished away.

Next step is a small-base sizer, I guess.

[Outpost75]

Don't invest in a small base sizer until you have cast and measured the chamber and obtained an exact head to datum headspace measurment using a Go headspace gage and graduated shims held to the gage head with a drop of oil. Small base dies reduce body diameter,and do not affect head to shoulder datum length. You will simply overwork your brass and set yourself up for case head separations.

Don't go willy nilly trying things to fix the problem until you have MEASURED and determined exactly what is wrong. Otherwise you are simply throwing money away.

[country gent]

If I remeber correctly the 1917s cocked on opening not closing so this is probably what your feeling just before lugs release to extract. The 30-06 has a taper to the ody thats somewhat heavy compared to modern cartridges, this was to aid chembering and extraction. Sizing cases from one rifle to a new one can be tricky due to case spring back hardness and the dies themslves. WIth the case body showing rub marks, lay a straight edge down the side ( a 6" steel ruler works well) what your looking for is if the case body is straight look for light and tight areas or itf its straight and true. Lay the straight edge along the case body on centerline and hold with a good light behind it. Check this 3 places around body. Under the force of heavy sizing long case bodies can buldge. You didnt mention marks on the shoulder area so Im not sure there is a headspace problem. Douglas and several others did a big buisness on barrels for sporterizing these rifles, and most doing them had thier own ideas of what the reamer should be. I have seen reamers ground to min dimensions that do cut a "tighter" chamber ALso some smiths hand sharpened reamers by hand. ( at work if we needed a press fit reamer quick a few passes down each cutting edge with a fine stone would remove enough to put it just shy of .0005 undersized. I have seen older dies that were worn or had been "polished" out that barley sized to specs. You need to make a chamber cast and compare to SAAMI specs in a good refrence book, Cartridges of the world comes to mind. Factory ammo has tolerences. You stated the neck and head were fine so look into the die body with a good light to see if the finish is even and matches. Check the case bodies for bulges and bowed condition ( bent like a bananna). Measure the fired cases fired in the rifle ( should be a close rendition of the chamber) and compare to sized cases. measure shoulder dia as this some times bulgers if not fully supported when sized and bumped back. Look at the machining polishing of the barrels exterior, length, and dias along it. These will give an idea if the barrel has been replaced. One that has all you said this one had done probably had the barrel set back or replaced with the sporterizing job.

[Multigunner]

The M1917 and P-14 rifles half cock on opening and become fully cocked on the closing stroke. Some sporting models were altered to cock on opening but using the original camming surfaces these have a short firing pin fall that can cause poor ignition or misfires.
Most cock on closing bolt actions have a camming action to retract the firing pin a short distance, but the M1917 takes that a good deal further to bring it to a half cocked position.

If the rifle will chamber new factory ammo with no problem and a headspace gauge fits then I'd look for some way of resizing the cases to fit properly or just neck size only those cases that were fired only in this rifle.

A tight chamber may be the result of a replacement barrel with short un-finished reamed chamber being installed and not finish reamed properly. A friend had this problem with a M-1 Carbine.

[Remmy4477]

I have a bone stock eddystone 1917.
I have had the same problem at times, yet I still could get things chambered. Been quite a while since I've had any problems with it.
I am using a 1960's set of RCBS dies, 1940's military brass with numerous head stamps, seems the more I reload the brass the better the rifle likes it!
I think it's just the nature of the beast!

[leadman]

Try slipping a .020" feeler gauge under the shell holder then size the case a little at a time, checking frequently. I used to use this method years ago when forming 7.65 Arg. brass from 30-06 based cases.
You will want to take the feeler gauge out of the set and place the hole in the end of the gauge under the shell holder. The decap pin will punch a hole thru it otherwise. Makes it hard to get the case out of the die!

[blixen]

I just fiddled with the brass that I fired in the 1917. It chambers without a problem! <head slap!>

I may just have to size and resize my once-fired fired brass until it chambers--using a feeler gauge/ground down shell holder, then only neck size. (Possibly the especially troublesome Federal brass all came from one source--a rifle with a big-a**ed chamber.)

I may have to invest in a small-base sizer if I continue to use other-people's once-fired brass (Me buy NEW brass for a '06? Not likely.).

Of course, I won't be sure if all is well until I reload and fire the neck-sized brass. (I might invest in an '06 collet die.)

I started this by saying I'm a reloading ignoramus. Thanks, everyone, for the above education. I learned a lot.

This site has an awesome (in the old sense of the word) amount of combined knowledge.

[376Steyr]

I use little cut up pieces of the sidewalls of aluminum beverage cans for rough headspace checking shims. It doesn't get much cheaper than that, and they don't squash under pressure of the bolt. Of course every can has a different sidewall thickness, and they really should be measured with a micrometer, but I figure that if a bolt will close on a full-length sized round plus two shims, there is an immediate problem and I'm not shooting that gun until I get it fixed.

[gnostic]

I shortened the shell holder for case reforming and loading on my Argentine Mauser, otherwise the bolt wouldn't close. I've not had a problem of any type with my handmade case's, or ammo.

[blixen]

I use little cut up pieces of the sidewalls of aluminum beverage cans for rough headspace checking shims. It doesn't get much cheaper than that, and they don't squash under pressure of the bolt. Of course every can has a different sidewall thickness, and they really should be measured with a micrometer, but I figure that if a bolt will close on a full-length sized round plus two shims, there is an immediate problem and I'm not shooting that gun until I get it fixed.
I was told the same trick with layers of masking tape--but masking tape thickness must be all over the place and it also would squish so that idea seems suspect.

I love DIY solutions though, so maybe someone could speak to the beer-can shim head-space test.

I've made brass for 7x57mm, Argy and 7.7 Japanese out of 30-06 and never had a problem with chambering. Really blindsided by this 1917 Enfield.

[WineMan]

I was playing around with a few 30-06's, a M1903a3 and M1917. I have a set of Redding comp shell holders and I can pretty much set the shoulder back in a F/L die from none to below the SAAMI min (2.047") The Springfield is short chambered and anything longer than 2.045" base to datum line will not chamber unless I really reef on the bolt. It took me a while to figure this out, but Factory loaded brass tends to be around that number and would chamber easily. Stuff I sized F/L from other rifles would not chamber. When I switched to the M1917 with a totally stripped bolt, anything over 2.050" would lock up and not close. I needed a small mallet tap to get the bolt to open back up. Take 0.001 off the base to datum and bingo, turns like butter. I have a Wilson steel min max gauge and a Forester gauge that works on a caliper. Cases under the max on the Wilson would chamber in the M1917 but not the M1903A3. Cases fired in the M1903A3, would be at or under the Wilson min when checked. I realize that a brass case is not a hardened steel head space gauge but it was a cool experiment.

Dave

[Frank46]

I had two rcbs shell holders for the '06 case head surface ground one was .005 and the other was .010 shorter than the nominal thickness of the rcbs shell holders. Had a bunch on rem 308 cases that were driving me nuts. Even f/l sizing and they gave noticable trouble chambering. Used the .005 and it acted like a bump die setting back the shoulder so that they chambered easily. Some of the cases had badly turned extraction grooves. All factory ammo too. Went through the entire batch and about half (50) had the extraction groove problem. Tossed the lot in the scrap bucket. I once did some testing with rem brass. Used the same powder charge I normally did and got ten loadings with no case problems. This in a sendero in 308. Frank

[guicksylver]

Thanks again for the help. Outpost, I use Lee shell holders, so I'll measure them against other makes and try grinding or buying another brand. I think you might be on to something.

Followup: I took the 1917 to the range.
-- Great trigger and I got a promising (4" at 100 yards) group with a random test load of 8.5 grains of WW540 (from 1979) under a Lee 175 flat point (.310").

Several of my handloads were difficult to chamber, but showed no sign of excessive pressure. Of course, I was using low-potency plinker loads in the first place.

I noticed a problem that might be a symptom or just a characteristic of U.S. 1917s. When I brought the bolt up after firing to eject the shell, it turned easily, but required a 'pop' with the palm to take it that last fraction of an inch to release the lugs. Then it extracted fine and ejected with no issues. Is that last bit of force on opening the bolt a trait of the 1917? (I know it takes a bit of force to close the bolt because it's cock on closing.)

I was sitting at a bench with a scope on the rifle, so working my bolt actions is always clumsy.


If you want to cut those 4" groups in half size the bullets .313 and seat deeper.

Yours is an original 5 groove barrel, so don't bother to try and mike the bullet, the bullet should match the throat anyways not the grooves.

And speaking of grooves, the original 5 groove barrels were cut with .30 bore and .055 grooves, doing the math , 2x.0055 = .011 add .30 bore = .311, add .002 over for cast = .313.

166068

Enjoy....Dan

[frkelly74]

I didn't see mention of it but I have had issue with chambering that were caused by maladjusted seating dies over crimping the bullet to the point of buckling the as shoulder of the case. This is easy o fix by adjusting your crimp obviously. brass that is not trimmed to a uniform length will make this problem happen also.

[blixen]

If you want to cut those 4" groups in half size the bullets .313 and seat deeper.

Nice group. i understand what you're saying, but it could be tough. My molds (155, 165 & 175 gr.) cast at just over .311. I have one that casts a 180 RN at .313. Maybe Ill load up a few unsized and see what happens. But I'm hoping for some decent groups with .311 boolits and some load tuning because the 4-inch group was a .310 170gr. Lee with a guessed load to check functioning and fire form some cases.

If that doesn't work out, I'll beagle and make a .313 sizer.

[guicksylver]

I may have some good news for you.

That group I posted was with a boolit that cast out with . 312 bands, it was gas checked and sized .313.

The 1917 's usually have a tight bore,so I would check the noses of your boolits to see haw they fit the bore by inserting them in the muzzle.

If they stop before reaching the top band I would try them sized at least .312.

I don't know what your alloy is ,but a harder alloy alloy will give you a slightly bigger boolit.

Just try 5 each sized as close to .313 as you can get ignoring the as cast boolit size, the nose and gas check should stablize the boolit.

[blixen]

The 1917 's usually have a tight bore,so I would check the noses of your boolits to see haw they fit the bore by inserting them in the muzzle.

If they stop before reaching the top band I would try them sized at least .312.

I don't know what your alloy is ,but a harder alloy alloy will give you a slightly bigger boolit.

Just try 5 each sized as close to .313 as you can get ignoring the as cast boolit size, the nose and gas check should stablize the boolit.

None of my boolits (.311) reach the top band when inserted in the muzzle.

This particular run of boolits are a witches-brew alloy--about half range lead from jacketed bullets and half clip-on wheel weights and a bit of solder for a little tin to fill out the moulds. (I'm not a particularly sophisticated caster--take my lead where I can find it.) Aluminium gas checks. I water quench and use liquid paste wax/Lee Alox tumble lube. Shoot mainly in the 1,200 to 1,500 FPS range, based on Lyman load data.

Next round, I'll try beagling to get a bigger boolit. And, as I said, I have a 180 gr. Lee "Enfield" mould that spits 'em out at about .314.

[guicksylver]

Good luck and keep us posted... I for one would like to know how the bigger boolits work....Dan