Bullseye Shooters: Your Wadcutter of Choice & Why?

[Bigslug]

This is more for my own academic enlightenment than anything else: I lucked into an old H&G#50 bevel-base 10-cavity police mold, and it's all the wadcutter I'm going to need. . .

. . .however, it has got me scratching my head and wondering "What characteristics make one roughly soup can shaped bullet more desirable for match accuracy than another?"

For example, one thing I've noticed about the #50 is that it's got a raised, flat-nosed, .25 to .30 caliber dimple on the front end. It occurred to me that the Olympic-grade .22LR Eley ammo has nearly the same thing going on.

So, what are you liking and why?

[Scharfschuetze]

I lucked into an old H&G#50 bevel-base 10-cavity police mold, and it's all the wadcutter I'm going to need. . .

You are indeed a lucky man Bigslug.

Having shot a lot of wadcutters on my department's shooting team, I have to say the Remington factory HBWC of 148 grains was the preferred projectile for the PPC course of fire that went from 7 yards through 50 yards. I still shoot a lot of them and I get them in 2,000 count packages from a friend who owns a fun store not far from me.

To be honest, I've never cast an actual WC boolit, but were I to do so, I'd sure like to find an old H&G mould like yours. My old police gang mould is a Saeco unit that produces 148 grain round nose boolits. It's a treat to cast with and for most shooting, it produces and excellent boolit and one can also duplicate the old military 38 Special M41 load with it for Victory Model S&W revolvers.

[Char-Gar]

If everything is equal, which is seldom the case, a hollow base wadcutter will shade in accuracy a solid base wadcutter. There are two primary reasons.

1. The HB is longer and will get better hold on the rifling.
2. The HB has a forward center of gravity which help it to fly straight at low velocity.

That said, HB wadcutters have some special issues involved in there loading and use. the SB wadcutter is far more versatile and almost as accurate.

The principal purpose of a wadcutter is to cut clean neat holes in paper targets which can add to a score if a ring is cut on the target. For pure accuracy, my money is on the round nose cast bullet, but off the range they have little value other than plinking.

[44man]

No wad cutter can match a good designed boolit. The stupid flat nose can not align the cylinder to bore unless 100% perfect. A dimple on the front----AMAZING! HB is another hoax.

[Char-Gar]

No wad cutter can match a good designed boolit. The stupid flat nose can not align the cylinder to bore unless 100% perfect. A dimple on the front----AMAZING! HB is another hoax.

I don't think it is fair to call the wadcutter a "hoax". They were not designed for ultimate accuracy but to cut a neat hole in the target for accurate scoring. Unless the velocity is bumped up several hundred fps, they will start to yaw and then tumble much past 50 yards.

You are correct that there are other designs that are far more accurate.

A "hoax" is something that is intentionally perpetrated on the people. The myth that a wadcutter is super accurate comes from ignorance and is not a hoax. Folks without deep experience, assume the wadcutter provides superior accuracy because it is used in target shooting. This of course if incorrect and the purpose behind the design is something else.

However, a good solid base wadcutter, fired at full velocity will provide all the accuracy a person can use when firing a handgun standing on his hind legs. It will also deliver some very good terminal effects on flesh and blood. They are very useful as a field bullets, but again, they must be pushed to full velocity to have much use as a field bullets, other than for bunnies and bull frogs.

A full wadcutter pushed 1,100 - 1,200 fps out of a 357 Magnum is an awesome field load that will do every bit as well or better than a "blast em to hell" full snort magnum load with a SWC.

The purpose of the "dimple" or button nose on the front of the wadcutter bullets is placed there to help a smidge in feeding 38 Target loads in an autopistol. It does nothing for accuracy.

My favorite SB wadcutter is the Hensley and Gibbs 244 with it's dead flat nose. If I want flat, than I want the flattest around. I buy these from Matt's Bullets. A full charge (3.5/Bullseye) wadcutter is my choice for a defense round in the 38 Special. This round will deliver good tissue damage as well as deep penetration to get down to the vitals of a miscreant. This bullet does not depend on expansion to do it's work.

[Bigslug]

I don't think it is fair to call the wadcutter a "hoax". They were not designed for ultimate accuracy but to cut a neat hole in the target for accurate scoring. Unless the velocity is bumped up several hundred fps, they will start to yaw and then tumble much past 50 yards.

Which is an interesting thing to contemplate in itself. I'm sure somebody "scienced" this out at some point. At some point, some egghead must have concluded that slight accuracy trade off + natural human error + cleaner holes = ultimately better scores. If the accuracy of another shape was MARKEDLY superior over the NRA course, would that not be the better choice - relying more on the true center of the hole than hoping for a lucky edge?

Another question. . .A theoretical advantage of a wadcutter is that it's inherently well balanced and easy to machine. Very easy to get center of shape and center of mass to be one and the same. Is it possible wadcutters were the projectile of choice because it was easier to make perfectly round cylinders in molds back in the day than it was to cut cavities with perfectly centered SWC noses?


A full wadcutter pushed 1,100 - 1,200 fps out of a 357 Magnum is an awesome field load that will do every bit as well or better than a "blast em to hell" full snort magnum load with a SWC.

That's probably going to be the next batch. At match velocities, they open old lemons very nicely. Eager to harden the mix and up the speed.


The purpose of the "dimple" or button nose on the front of the wadcutter bullets is placed there to help a smidge in feeding 38 Target loads in an autopistol. It does nothing for accuracy.

Soooo. . .what you're saying is that, because I have this dimple-nosed H&G #50 mold, I'm required to go out and find a S&W 52 or wadcutter-spec Gold Cup to go along with it? Thanks buddy! That's a BIG help! :bigsmyl2:

NICE flat latch pre-36 BTW. That's got CHARACTER!

[tazman]

I use the Lyman 358495 for practice and the NOE 360-148-hbwc for top accuracy. Both shoot extremely well in my guns, the edge going to the NOE hollow base.
For social uses I cast the Lyman 358432 for full power usage. I have the NOE version of this that is hollow point capable.
I also have a Modern Bond mold that has a full, flat nose similar to the 358432 that I cast for my snubbie.

[RedHawk357Mag]

A lover of things waddcutter here. That mold you recently picked up had an excellent article in the NRA casting book from a long time ago. Seems the bevel base was a touch more accurate than the plain base. For social purposes I find the recent Decarlie mold seems to have a huge amount of smack.

[Bigslug]

That mold you recently picked up had an excellent article in the NRA casting book from a long time ago. Seems the bevel base was a touch more accurate than the plain base.

That does fly somewhat in the face of conventional casting wisdom, but I will say that it's very nice from a mass-production standpoint. My mother retired last summer and has rejoined Dad & I on our range forays after a roughly 25 year shooting hiatus - she's going through an obscene amount of the things relearning the fundamentals, and the 10-holer coupled with the Dillon is very helpful in keeping up with her. The rounded base chops a fair amount off the elapsed time for setting one in the case.

Could be that the writer of that article of yore had better luck getting clean and consistent seating with the bevel.

I was about to throw out "It's boat-tailed! Of course it's more accurate!" in nice purple font as a joke, however, maybe there's something to that: these loads are subsonic to begin with, kind of on the ragged edge of instability. . .a beveled base might have a little less turbulence off the stern and remain stable a little farther out because of it.

[Dale53]

I have a four cavity original H&G mold for the #50BB. It's as cast diameter when using WW's+2% tin is just over .358" (my sizing diameter) so it just barely "cleans up" when sized and lubed in the Star. Perfect!

The bullets just fall from the mold making it an absolute JOY to use. It shoots well under 1" at 25 yards off a rest and is reliable. I have used it or a similar w/c bullet for years on edible small game. It does a superb job on target OR game.

I also have a six cavity original H&G for the double ended #251 wadcutter. It rains bullets like no tomorrow. However, complete with handles that iron baby weighs nearly five pounds. After casting 20 lbs. of bullets, I am TIRED! It also shoots extremely well and probably has a bit more "smack" (technical term for terminal effect:bigsmyl2:) but I find myself reaching for the four cavity mold simply because even tho' it takes a third more time to cast 20 lbs. of finished bullets it is much less tiring. Bottom line is if you have molds for either bullet, the Gods have smiled on you. They either will do all that needs done on the target line or in the field. I do as Char-Gar does in the field, the ol' "Full Charge Wadcutter". In fact, that's the load I also use at the range. Simplifies things...

FWIW
Dale53

[Petrol & Powder]

Stolen from Fryxell's "From ingot to target: A cast bullet guide for handgunners" Chapter 11

"That cute little vestigial nose left on these Type II wadcutters is intended to provide additional aerodynamic stability by breaking up the air-flow and starting the slipstream. Since these are virtually always subsonic bullets (not only sub-sonic, but below 0.85 Mach, or roughly 900 fps), the airstream is roughly conformal to the bullet's profile, with turbulent flow in the boundary layer at these velocities. There is no super-sonic "bow-wave". A flat face with a sharp shoulder (e.g. Ideal 358348) can induce substantial turbulence just aft of the shoulder. This is because the slipstream is unable to flow smoothly around a sharp 90 degree corner, so there are turbulent "eddies" formed just aft of this shoulder, which can destabilize the spinning wadcutter and lead to tumbling. By putting a small nose just forward of the flat face, the airflow is more gradually redirected as a result of the eddies formed along the sides of the nose, resulting in somewhat greater stability in flight, and therefore longer accurate range before the wadcutter starts to tumble."

So there may be some advantage to that little nose beyond just assisted loading that wadcutter in the chambers.

[Char-Gar]

A lover of things waddcutter here. That mold you recently picked up had an excellent article in the NRA casting book from a long time ago. Seems the bevel base was a touch more accurate than the plain base. For social purposes I find the recent Decarlie mold seems to have a huge amount of smack.

You want smack, I will show you smack (-: 220 grain wadcutter at 800 fps out of a 38 Special.

[pill bug]

Haha Char-Gar, That's about the most smack i have ever seen!

[hp246]

I shot a S & W Model 52. The best ammo for me was the WW factory 148 gr. match round. Nothing else came close to it in that gun. Of course, the Department was footing the bill at the time.

[Bigslug]

You want smack, I will show you smack (-: 220 grain wadcutter at 800 fps out of a 38 Special.

Ha! Those look like an eraser on a the end of a pencil. . .placed there for the purpose of rubbing stuff out. . .

[MT Gianni]

Stolen from Fryxell's "From ingot to target: A cast bullet guide for handgunners" Chapter 11

"That cute little vestigial nose left on these Type II wadcutters is intended to provide additional aerodynamic stability by breaking up the air-flow and starting the slipstream. Since these are virtually always subsonic bullets (not only sub-sonic, but below 0.85 Mach, or roughly 900 fps), the airstream is roughly conformal to the bullet's profile, with turbulent flow in the boundary layer at these velocities. There is no super-sonic "bow-wave". A flat face with a sharp shoulder (e.g. Ideal 358348) can induce substantial turbulence just aft of the shoulder. This is because the slipstream is unable to flow smoothly around a sharp 90 degree corner, so there are turbulent "eddies" formed just aft of this shoulder, which can destabilize the spinning wadcutter and lead to tumbling. By putting a small nose just forward of the flat face, the airflow is more gradually redirected as a result of the eddies formed along the sides of the nose, resulting in somewhat greater stability in flight, and therefore longer accurate range before the wadcutter starts to tumble."

So there may be some advantage to that little nose beyond just assisted loading that wadcutter in the chambers.





Col Harrison also claimed that in the NRA publication Cast Bullets.
I have always gotten the best results by lubing only one groove on these. I have owned molds in 358459,358359, 358491, 23863 and 358462 but am now down to only the 358462. Any more my eyes will not let me shoot a wc any better than a swc.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I shoot a Smith M52 using the H&G #251 which is a flat faced WC. It shoots and groups exceedingly well and is the second of two wadcutters that I use. The other is the H & G #50 that I use in my Smith model 14s.Both bullets are outstanding performers. LLS

[salvadore]

I tend to agree with the full range WC crowd. My Modern Bond 150 grain WC mold has been used as my defence .38 spec. load. I like the profile and have a single cavity Ideal .44 mold of similar configuration I use in my 396 .44 spec....ouch!

[Earlwb]

I forget who made the mold, maybe Lyman at the time. But I use a 148 grain wadcutter in my 38 special cartridges. I have fired quite a few thousand of them too. I also have a 98 grain wadcutter bullet mold for a .32 S&W long too. I fired a unknown number in the thousands, in the past, using that bullet too. Heck the cartridge case brass lasts forever as you only load the round with enough power to get it down to the target at a leisurely pace.

[StrawHat]

For a while, Lee Precision made a DEWC that dropped a 150 grain boolit. I had a pair of two cavity molds and fed a PPC competition diet with them. They were accurate enough from my revolvers. I lubed one groove and tried to load that groove into the case first. I shot them well enough to stay competitive for about 10 years. Maybe longer if I stayed in LE.

Kevin

[bruce drake]

So, why do Wadcutters stay competitive over Semi-Wadcutters on the bullseye line? Both cut sharp round holes but I would think the SWC would be more aerodynamic and allow for a little bit more velocity to offset any windage needed for the 50 yard line.

[fecmech]

So, why do Wadcutters stay competitive over Semi-Wadcutters on the bullseye line?
I haven't shot BE in years but my WAG is nobody shoots revolvers in serious competition anymore and target grade autos are set up for WC's.

[Char-Gar]

So, why do Wadcutters stay competitive over Semi-Wadcutters on the bullseye line? Both cut sharp round holes but I would think the SWC would be more aerodynamic and allow for a little bit more velocity to offset any windage needed for the 50 yard line.

In the Bulleye game, even a slight cut of the scoring ring will give the higher score. Nothing cuts clean holes like the full wadcutter. When shooting for the gold, small things like this matter.

[JMax]

I held an expert ticket in both indoor and outdoor bullseye but shot hardball for both CF and 45 matches but I held a High Master ticket in PPC and with 48 rounds/150 fired at 50 yards we found that a HB wad cutter gave us a slight edge. All revolvers were S&W with heavy barrels/sight ribs and DA only. When I went to the nationals all Master and High Maters that I talked to had the same experience.
Basically most shooters cannot tell the difference and we all shot cast for practice so shoots what works in your pistol/revolvers.

[Earlwb]

So, why do Wadcutters stay competitive over Semi-Wadcutters on the bullseye line? Both cut sharp round holes but I would think the SWC would be more aerodynamic and allow for a little bit more velocity to offset any windage needed for the 50 yard line.

The wadcutter tends to cut nicer round holes in the target. The semi-wadcutter does pretty good too, but not quite as sharp on the hole edges. If a bullet happens to be borderline and almost touches the line separating the scores on the target, having a nice sharp round hole may give you more points than a ragged hole.

Now then it isn't the speed of the bullet. They load the target rounds with enough powder charge to get them to the target. it can be a fairly leisurely pace, usually around 650fps or so for 38 specials. Less recoil, less powder charge has less variation in muzzle velocity too. Thus a better accuracy. With the .38 specials and .32 S&W longs, they seat the bullet inside the case in order to protect the bullet from damage that might affect accuracy.

Semi-wadcutters tend to be used with semi-auto pistols. The angled bullet tip helps to chamber the round easier with less potential for jams. Low velocity is the key still. A semi-auto target pistol will use a light spring that has just enough power to work the slide and load the next round OK.

Now then the special .32 S&W long semi-auto target pistols are super accurate and a dream to shoot. Very specialized for one handed shooting too. They are designed to feed only the .32 target ammo with the wadcutter bullet seated inside the case. This type is unique in that it can feed and shoot the .32 longs with the bullet seated inside the case.

[zubrato]

I was wondering if you gentlemen had information regarding when the 358495 or H&G #50 was introduced, and how they evolved over time?
I've found the HG molds to be consistent with everyone's estimation of weight but also advertised weight, whereas I have an Ideal 358495 & a Lyman 358495 and there are lots of little changes between the two.

The early 358495 was heavier, I get about152gr with range scrap, but the newer Lyman I get about 148.
Also the newer the Lyman molds the more they resemble the HG 50 design.

Where can I find more Information about the history and development of these two designs?

[Bigslug]

I was wondering if you gentlemen had information regarding when the 358495 or H&G #50 was introduced, and how they evolved over time?

.....

Where can I find more Information about the history and development of these two designs?

www.hensleygibbs.com contains a link to a Word doc which contains all the models in numeric order with notes as to what the author could find regarding history. It appears that H&G was adding model numbers in roughly numeric order, which would probably make the #50 a child of the late 1930's or very early '40's.

[35remington]

The WC bullet is seated deeply in the case to reduce small powder charge velocity variation. It has nothing to do with protecting the bullet. If protecting the bullet were paramount all those 45 ACP 1911 target pistols would never have been built.