Help diagnosing leading problem

[zenkoji]

Hello all! I've lurked on this board for a couple of years, and have been casting my own boolits for 3-4 years.

I use Lee moulds (TL452-230-2R, TL356-124-TC, 452-228-1R), Lee Liquid Alox for lube, Lee sizing dies (356, 451). I resize all boolits, then lube per Lee instructions.

My lead supply consists of WW gathered over the last few years, smelted in smallish batches (25#) into 1lb ingots. I use sawdust for fluxing, but have sometime used Franklin Arsenal flux.

I have always seen some leading, and use Shooter's Choice lead remover and chore boy pieces to clean, with lousy success.

I've attached some pics of the barrel from my recently purchased XD mod.2 4" service model. Leading seems to be concentrated in the grooves, toward the end of the barrel, with some splotching. The pics are after vigorous cleaning attempts, and even soaking the barrel overnight in the lead remover.

I've read many of the posts and online literature regarding leading, and would appreciate some guidance on the direction to go before spending money on a lead hardness tester or other tools.

Thanks in advance!

[Toymaker]

You should be ok with WW. Have you slugged the bore?
What velocity are you getting?
Change lubes. I like Ben's Red. Someone will suggest powder coating.
Are you also asking how to remove the leading?? 1) soak the bore in Kroil. and what always works for me - seal the bore, lean it in a corner and fill it with mercury. Let sit overnight. Save the mercury, you can use it again. Clean carefully.

[runfiverun]

SIIIgh.
452 and 358
451 and 356 are wrong unless your buying copper wrapped stuff

[243winxb]

With 4 years experience, without problems, has to be an alloy problem. Add linotype or water drop to harden bullets. .452" for the 45acp.

[zenkoji]

I just slugged it, but given the amount of leading right now, it seems the readings may be skewed. I'm getting .347 to .351.

Where would one obtain mercury, and what kind of cost?

BTW I'm using Titegroup, between 3.6 and 4.0 gr, on a 124 gr. conical.

[runfiverun]

woah, some copper chore-boy wrapped on a brush will get that out just fine.
make sure it's copper and not copper coated steel.

[zenkoji]

Normally I would agree withvyou, but for some reason this stuff is being damn stubborn. What you see in the pics is after rigorous cleaning attempts and an overnight soak in lead remover, followed by more chore boy cleaning. Hence the reason I am seeking assistance with diagnosing the problem so I can resolve it permanently.

[toallmy]

I have a little jar of peroxide and I believe vinegar 50/50 that I have dropped the barrel of my 45 in the past and it softened the lead so it could be wiped out . But it is very corrosive and must be scrubbed off well and oiled up afterwards .

[GhostHawk]

A first slug barrel, make sure bullet is large enough, 2 thousandths over groove.

B If you like Alox you really should try Ben's Liquid Lube.

C either you did not say what caliber, gun you were casting for, or i missed it.
.356 might be fine for 9mm luger but is too small for .38/.357.

Bullet mold and sizing die should both be IMO a Minimum of 2 thousandths over groove diameter.
Failure to get a mold to fit correctly will result in consistent leading.

Fit is king, after fit is proven correct, then I start looking at lube, alloy, load in that order.
Tackling them one at a time until you find what works.

More information would be helpful.

[Mitch]

Here is a great tool for getting the lead out.
http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/patches-mops/lead-remover/lewis-lead-remover-prod21587.aspx
I use the lewis lead remover ans brownells double tuff bore brushes
Befor you slug your barrel it has to be clean.get all the lead out and try slugging again.As said above .451 and .356 is likely to small of boolit.for the 45 you will need to be .001 to .002 over what you slug and the same for the 9mm.Rember fit is king everthig else come after.you should be ok with ww lead for the 9mm and a 50/50 mix of ww and pure lead for the 45acp.the fit sounds like more of the problem.

I had the same thing going on when I first started casting copper choreboy didn't get the job done for me either.the lewis lead remover is a much better tool to use. Murcury is very toxic.

[toallmy]

You are using tumble lube bullets , possibly undersized . Won't hurt to try powder coating . Could fix the problem in the future .

[zenkoji]

A first slug barrel, make sure bullet is large enough, 2 thousandths over groove.

B If you like Alox you really should try Ben's Liquid Lube.

C either you did not say what caliber, gun you were casting for, or i missed it.
.356 might be fine for 9mm luger but is too small for .38/.357.

Bullet mold and sizing die should both be IMO a Minimum of 2 thousandths over groove diameter.
Failure to get a mold to fit correctly will result in consistent leading.

Fit is king, after fit is proven correct, then I start looking at lube, alloy, load in that order.
Tackling them one at a time until you find what works.

More information would be helpful.

Thanks for the response.

A - I neglected to slug the barrel before using some of the existing 9mm rounds I had already made for a previous weapon. Mistake on my part. I did slug it yesterday, but there is lead fouling in the grooves that is skewing the results (.347 to .351)

B - Is that homemade or store-bought? A quick search looks like homemade.

C - The gun is a 9mm XD mod.2 4" Service model.

If I can get the leading out of the barrel I will re-slug it and probably buy a new mould.

I started this thread after reading Fryxell's book (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm), specifically the chapter on leading. This lead me to think it was the quality/quantity of lube (with the leading being concentrated close the end of the barrel), though I am certainly concerned about bullet size and even lead hardness. I just don't want to chase my tail trying to solve the problem, and sink another couple hundred into a new mould(s), a lead hardness tester, etc.

[zenkoji]

Here is a great tool for getting the lead out.
http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/patches-mops/lead-remover/lewis-lead-remover-prod21587.aspx
I use the lewis lead remover ans brownells double tuff bore brushes


I think I bought one of those at one time, but sent it back for some reason. May have to look at that again.

[zenkoji]

After some additional work, I was able to get the barrel pretty clean using patches soaked in lead remover and wrapped with chore boy pieces.

I slugged the bore again (bullet went through much easier this time ), and have consistent. 355 readings.

Would the consensus be to go to a .358 bullet (maybe the 105 gr Lee mould?)?

I'm considering adding additional lube and decreasing the powder to the minimum (3.6gr Titegroup) to see if that works.

[mikeyjones]

After some additional work, I was able to get the barrel pretty clean using patches soaked in lead remover and wrapped with chore boy pieces.

I slugged the bore again (bullet went through much easier this time ), and have consistent. 355 readings.

Would the consensus be to go to a .358 bullet (maybe the 105 gr Lee mould?)?

I'm considering adding additional lube and decreasing the powder to the minimum (3.6gr Titegroup) to see if that works.
If barrel slugs at 355, bullet should be 356

[zenkoji]

I would tend to agree, but it seems others above had a different idea.

But if the bullet is right ( at .356), and I am getting a LOT of leading, the I guess next step is to make up some rounds with the least amount of powder, shoot a few mags worth, and check the leading.

If the leading persists, I will try more lube at the same powder level and see if that helps.

If that doesn't help, I'll look at a different type of lube. Somewhere I'd seen a mixture of Johnson Paste Wax (45%), Lee Liquid Alox (45%), and Mineral Spirits (10%). Anone have experience with it?

LOL, just did more digging on this site and found the White Label 45-45-10 and bought some. Also loaded 50 rds at 3.6 gr of Titegroup.

[runfiverun]

leading at the end of the barrel makes most people think of lube right off 'because it ran out'.
you don't run out of lube.
it might quit working or is blown off the boolit [out of the lube groove in the throat] and there isn't any when it gets that far down the barrel.
using a tumble lube doesn't allow the lube to get blown out of the grooves.
but it for sure will allow gas to blow by the boolit.
gas cutting the edges and blowing the vaporized lead ahead damaging the boolit allowing it to skid down the rifling and is ironed into the surface of the barrel.

I think you have a diameter problem and the gas is not being held in check at the throat.
whatever the throat is on the newer pistols. [usually rifling at the end of the chamber]
or the rifling is cutting straight into the t/l grooves which gives the flowing lead nowhere to go except to the base [once again allowing gas cutting] and you end up with slivers of lead chipping off that are just being ironed into the barrel by each passing boolit.

the LEE t/l boolit is not a good 9mm boolit it has caused a ton of posts just like this one in the past..
the 45 is a good enough design to get the job done but it has to be sized properly 452 to work and then it does a fine job.

[zenkoji]

leading at the end of the barrel makes most people think of lube right off 'because it ran out'.
you don't run out of lube.
it might quit working or is blown off the boolit [out of the lube groove in the throat] and there isn't any when it gets that far down the barrel.
using a tumble lube doesn't allow the lube to get blown out of the grooves.
but it for sure will allow gas to blow by the boolit.
gas cutting the edges and blowing the vaporized lead ahead damaging the boolit allowing it to skid down the rifling and is ironed into the surface of the barrel.

I think you have a diameter problem and the gas is not being held in check at the throat.
whatever the throat is on the newer pistols. [usually rifling at the end of the chamber]
or the rifling is cutting straight into the t/l grooves which gives the flowing lead nowhere to go except to the base [once again allowing gas cutting] and you end up with slivers of lead chipping off that are just being ironed into the barrel by each passing boolit.

the LEE t/l boolit is not a good 9mm boolit it has caused a ton of posts just like this one in the past..
the 45 is a good enough design to get the job done but it has to be sized properly 452 to work and then it does a fine job.

I appreciate the response. Based on the .355 readings I took after slugging the barrel, and using the Lee TL356-124-TC mould (I measured some recently cast boolits, and they are consistently .356 or .357), do you still think it's a size issue?

Lee does make .358 moulds like the 358-125-RF or the 358-105-SWC, but then I'd be looking at a boolit that is .003 over .355, which I assume I would need to resize to .357 (necessitating the purchase of yet another sizing die). Or is it more boolit shape (i.e., the TL design), and should I look at using the Lee 356-120-TC or 356-125-2R?

I guess I'm just confused... considering that all of the 9mm moulds are a .356, and that my barrel measurements are .355...

[zenkoji]

it might quit working or is blown off the boolit [out of the lube groove in the throat] and there isn't any when it gets that far down the barrel.

I think you have a diameter problem and the gas is not being held in check at the throat.
whatever the throat is on the newer pistols. [usually rifling at the end of the chamber]
or the rifling is cutting straight into the t/l grooves which gives the flowing lead nowhere to go except to the base [once again allowing gas cutting] and you end up with slivers of lead chipping off that are just being ironed into the barrel by each passing boolit.



Thought a little more about this... when setting up my bullet seating depth, should the actual bullet be just touching the rifling when the round is seated, or not touching it at all? Should there be just a slight force required (i.e., the forward movement of the slide) for the round to fully insert into the chamber?

When I was making the 50 test rounds last night (at the lowest end of 3.6 gr Titegroup), I was manually checking whether or not the first rounds would chamber by dropping them into my barrel (removed from the firearm, of course). The first few do not seat fully (requiring a very small amount of force to fully seat), so I backed out the seating die little by little until they would drop in easily without any force whatsoever.

Also, I am including a couple of pics of the bullet I used to slug the barrel for reference.

165212165213165214165215

[GhostHawk]

Couple of small points.

Make ONE change at a time, load 5-10 rounds, fire them, check barrel.

When you slugged the barrel, did you sheer off a ring of lead all the way around? If you did not, your slug might have been undersized to start with.

Try it one more time, but before inserting the slug into the barrel put it on a vice/anvil/piece of steel and SMACK it a time or 2 to swell it up some.

Now drive it into the barrel. Now did it sheer a ring of lead off at the muzzle? Still same result? Make sure you are measuring from where the lead flowed into a rifling groove (forming a ridge) on one side to opposite ridge. No ridge = slug not big enough to force lead into the groove ie your measuring bore not groove. (Been there done that)

Stick with it, you will get there. Your on the right path now. Just a matter of taking it a bit methodical, one step at a time will get you out of the ditch and back on the high road.

[zenkoji]

Couple of small points.

Make ONE change at a time, load 5-10 rounds, fire them, check barrel.

When you slugged the barrel, did you sheer off a ring of lead all the way around? If you did not, your slug might have been undersized to start with.

Try it one more time, but before inserting the slug into the barrel put it on a vice/anvil/piece of steel and SMACK it a time or 2 to swell it up some.

Now drive it into the barrel. Now did it sheer a ring of lead off at the muzzle? Still same result? Make sure you are measuring from where the lead flowed into a rifling groove (forming a ridge) on one side to opposite ridge. No ridge = slug not big enough to force lead into the groove ie your measuring bore not groove. (Been there done that)

Stick with it, you will get there. Your on the right path now. Just a matter of taking it a bit methodical, one step at a time will get you out of the ditch and back on the high road.

Excellent advice, thank you.

No ring was sheared off during the slugging, though a ridge was raised at the back of the bullet. You can kind of see that in one of the bullet pics above.

I just did as you suggested and mashed a bullet a few times with a 5# sledge first, then slugged again. Still no ring, though more lead moved to the base of the bullet, forming a ridge around the base.

I then smashed another bullet even further, then slugged again. Still no complete ring, but LOTS of lead moved, and some bits did come off.

Upon inspection of all of the slugs, some observations:

1) The first few bullets clearly still show some of the lube grooves after being pushed through the barrel.
2) The last slug that was deformed the most initially and was the hardest to push through the barrel left essentially no lube groove (the BAREST hint of a line visible with magnification).
3) Smashing bullets and slugging them through my barrel on my small bench-top vise has pointed out the significant fault in the attachment of said bench to the wall, which I will now have to fix ;).

[454PB]

Did you use some jacketed bullets for slugging......the first two look like jacketed.

The next two look like they were a very hard alloy.....pure (or very soft) lead works best, and needs to be lubricated with a drop of oil.

You don't have to hammer them bigger.....put the slug in the vice jaws and squeeze them bigger.

[zenkoji]

Did you use some jacketed bullets for slugging......the first two look like jacketed.

The next two look like they were a very hard alloy.....pure (or very soft) lead works best, and needs to be lubricated with a drop of oil.

You don't have to hammer them bigger.....put the slug in the vice jaws and squeeze them bigger.

All of the bullets used were ones I cast with the Lee TL356-124-TC mould, using wheel weights without any other metals added (i.e., tin), air quenched.

The pics I attached previously were all of the same boolit, just on different surfaces with different lighting, in an attempt to more adequately show the grooves, lube channels, etc.

[runfiverun]

were not trying to confuse you were just trying to peg down the actual diameter of the barrel.

I'm pointing out the faults of the mold to your throat design, and what your fighting with here.
backing down the oal so that the round drops right into the barrel is a good idea.
this say's the round is now head spacing off the case mouth and not banging the exposed lead into the rifling or the mouth of the chamber.

we gotta get the boolit into the barrel without damage and keep all the gas pressure behind it.

[zenkoji]

were not trying to confuse you were just trying to peg down the actual diameter of the barrel.

I'm pointing out the faults of the mold to your throat design, and what your fighting with here.
backing down the oal so that the round drops right into the barrel is a good idea.
this say's the round is now head spacing off the case mouth and not banging the exposed lead into the rifling or the mouth of the chamber.

we gotta get the boolit into the barrel without damage and keep all the gas pressure behind it.

Ok, so if OAL is good, then are we still thinking I need to go up .001 or .002 in bullet size? Or is it just a matter of the poor design of the Lee TL356-124-TC, and switching to something like the 356-125-2R should resolve the issue?

(I'm attaching a pic of the Lee chart for reference to the bullet designs).

I'll be shooting this afternoon, 5-10 rds of the lightest Titegroup load, to see what, if any, effect that has on the leading.
165271

[w5pv]

I have loaded thousands rounds of pistol rounds using Ben's Red without the first problem with leading and until I added tin to make the bullets fill out better a lot where undersized.Make up some Ben's Red for lube and I think you will enjoy the experience.Thanks Ben

[243winxb]

using wheel weights without any other metals added = Leading . If loading to maximum.

[zenkoji]

After all of this, and after reading up on powder coating (PC), I'm strongly considering going the PC route.

They look really cool.

It would eliminate the need for lube.

I have to believe it would add .001 to .002 to the bullet diameter, depending on one or two coats.

From what I've seen, the cost to get started would be about the same as changing moulds ($42 for new Lee 6 cavity, plus $25 for new sizing die) - versus $56 for gun from Harbor Freight (20% discount coupon) and $7 for first lb of powder (probably red, for fun, then some prismatic candy for later).

Thoughts? Am I missing anything?

[243winxb]

PC will fix it. [smilie=s:

[zenkoji]

PC will fix it. [smilie=s:

Well I hope so, since I went ahead and took the plunge after reading about a guy who did the same with the same Lee boolit and had success...

Ran over to HF (fortunate to have one here in town) and bought the gun and matte black powder. First batch of 50 complete!

Now to let it cure overnight, load some up tomorrow, and hit the range...

165306165307165308

[Yodogsandman]

Well I hope so, since I went ahead and took the plunge after reading about a guy who did the same with the same Lee boolit and had success...

Ran over to HF (fortunate to have one here in town) and bought the gun and matte black powder. First batch of 50 complete!

Now to let it cure overnight, load some up tomorrow, and hit the range...

165306165307165308

Are you serious? PC needs to be cured by heating in an oven at 400*F for 10 minutes. They look great by the way!

[zenkoji]

They were cured in the oven for 15 min at 400 :).

I'm super pleased with the results, first time, super easy.