Told today that only jacketed bullets will shoot accurately from a pistol....

[Yodogsandman]

Today, I asked a retired police instructor how I could improve my pistol shooting accuracy. During the conversation, he tells me that I would never get fine accuracy while using lead boolits. He explained that only jacketed bullets will grip the lands and that lead boolits over spin the lands when fired. Wanting to keep the conversation cordial, I backed away from the disagreement. I'd still like to know what he knows about the shooting stuff.

[Lloyd Smale]

could be all he was ever exposed to were commercial swaged lead bullets. They can do exactly that if pushed to hard.

[Smoke4320]

an expert ....in his own head !

[knifemaker]

I am a retired LEO firearms instructor and ex- competitive pistol shooter and I know for a fact that lead bullets are extremely accurate. Sounds like that firearms instructor has never shot any competitive pistol matches or he would know that lead bullets are used by most shooters including the shooters who won the matches.

[jeepyj]

I would have used that as an opening asking if he had any lead he wanted to get rid of. Just saying...
jeepyj

[Elkins45]

Wonder how all those target 22 pistols work?

[kodiak1]

Some of the Soldiers from the Civil War are probably going to be pi$$ed when they hear that!!
Ken.

[MarkP]

When I was in my early 20's an older guy, (probably 45 to 55 ish) at the range kept on hounding me about using cast..... never get any accuracy I would ruin my guns blow up others at the range. I just kept quiet and let him talk as I knew from past observations he was full of himself and stinky brown stuff. A few weeks prior same guy was giving a guy shooting an AR an earful about how inaccurate and unreliable AR's are. Ten minutes earlier I walked to down to check my targets, the guy shooting the AR had pretty impressive groups that were under 1 MOA. Same guy would always bring up a story how he was planning to sell a handgun to buy another and his wife talked him out of doing it. Saying his wife said: You can't sell that, it is the gun you won the Nebraska State Games with.

[dannyd]

I have gotten that from a lot of people over the years. I just smile and say okay. If they knew I have only shot cast bullets in every gun I have owned would blow their mind.

[725]

Seems to me that the know it all types are just covering for a fragile ego. Aside from being a bore, you kind of have to feel sorry for 'em. I usually just smile, nod my head and let 'em rant.

[Houndog]

I'd have to say the man hasn't been exposed to PROPERLY cast and loaded lead boolet rounds. Take such "advice"for what it's worth and go on about your business. We know better!

[retread]

Less competition for lead:bigsmyl2:

[Geezer in NH]

I feel sorry for the man's students.

I am in NH also and my shooting buddy is a retired NHSP firearms training officer. He is also a caster and big time user of cast boolits who shoots very little J-words.

His accuracy is astounding in handguns.

[bedbugbilly]

uhhhh .. . what's a "jacketed bullet"? :-)

[bangerjim]

An "expert"............someone 25 miles away from thier home.

banger

[LUBEDUDE]

I haven't loaded a j-word in over 35 years. And I have shot a LOT of competition, meaning excessive quantities.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Without the support of this forum, I may very well have believed the same thing.

[Jeff Michel]

Sounds more like his misfortune rather than his fault. As suggested earlier, my total sum of experience for me was factory swaged, soft lead bullets. The only thing they were good for was to build arm muscles scrubbing lead out of the bore. What casting I had done was also an abysmal failure. Being well aware of my singular lack of success, a late friend of mine, a prolific bullet caster provided me with copies of Colonel Harrison's articles that were printed in the American Rifleman with the assurance that if I read them a couple times, this will make sense. As this all took place long before Al Gore invented the internet, the acquisition of knowledge was much slower, but available. And I learned, still learning and still improving. Places like this are an enormous asset to our hobby/passion. I think if the OP would provide some good solid information, we may have lent a hand to straighten out yet another misguided soul.........Just my thoughts, YMMV

[nicholst55]

An "expert"............someone 25 miles away from thier home.

banger

Naw, an 'ex' is a has-been, and a 'spert' is a drip under pressure!

[Pumpkinheaver]

Sounds like this "expert" is no expert at all!!!

[leeggen]

Sounds like a good time to have him shoot a few and see for himself how accurate they are. But not a time to bicker over some lead.
CD

[trails4u]

To each his/her own...... I have an aunt, a very awesome aunt, who loves to shoot. She has her CCW, has attended several classes beyond her CCW, even some 'tactical' training, which I respect her doing. She is on a very fixed budget...but still loves to shoot whenever she can. All that said...she flatly refuses to shoot reloads, because an instructor told her not to. I've offered to show her the process, offered to teach her to load her own, even offered to tear down her factory and my loads for comparison...she'll have none of it. Disappointing to say the least, but I let the dog lie...it's her paycheck, she can spend it how she chooses. Dang it.

[PS Paul]

I have ZERO patience or tolerance for blowhards like him, and a lot of ranges are full of them. Last time some anti-lead "expert" tried telling me how bad lead is, I immediately loaded and set off a cylinder-full of boomin' 45 Colt as he tried to get the words outta his mouth. When we repeated the scenario, he finally got the message and walked off to his next targeted recipient of wisdom!

[flyingmonkey35]

Hand him a powder coated / polymer jacket bullet. And just tell him federal ammunition makes it and watch him huff and guff.


Its fun that Google has killed off a lot of cliff clavins.

[frkelly74]

People will fear what they don't understand, Most have no clue as to how ammo is built or even how it works.

[FISH4BUGS]

uhhhh .. . what's a "jacketed bullet"? :-)
They DO have a place. I have changed to almost ALL cast in my handguns and all submachinegun calibers (9mm, 380 and 45).
The ONLY jacketed bullets I use now are 223 (AR Platform), 308 (bolt rifle) and 147gr subsonic 9mm (suppressed Uzi, M11, S&W 76).
I could use cast lead for subsonic 9mm but the suppressor manufacturer says NO LEAD THROUGH THE CAN!
Who cares about accuracy when you let a full magazine rip?

[Petrol & Powder]

There are a lot of self appointed experts out there and they're not limited to any particular field. Often they are just disseminating bad information they received and using their status as an instructor to bolster their credibility and/or dissuade others from challenging what they say.

Being a firearms instructor might mean you have some ability to teach others how to shoot but it doesn't really require that you know much about guns and ammunition. Much like being a driving instructor doesn't automatically convey some infallible knowledge about vehicle mechanics. Sometimes people lean on their instructor status (or some other title) to avoid having to defend what they say.
"You can question what I say, I'm an instructor!" Or if you prefer the Wizard of Oz analogy, "I am the great and powerful Wizard of Oz".

In fairness to these people, most of them are not malicious; ignorant perhaps, but not malicious. They believe what they are contributing is valid and useful information. The problem is they refuse to listen to well reasoned argument or look at evidence.


In any event , The OP took the high road.

[Sasquatch-1]

I have only one handgun that does not like lead. It is a Desert Eagle in .44 mag. And yes I have tried it. The rounds have to be loaded to such a velocity that the bullet does not have time to grip the polygonal rifling resulting in a lot of key holing as close as 10 yds. Everything else gets a steady diet of lead including my daughters SR9C.

[oldred]

Only jacketed bullets are accurate in handguns? So that's what's wrong with my Colt 1911!

I knew there had to be something terribly wrong since all my cast bullets seem to want to stay in this little tight group!

[Blackwater]

The sad little secret is that a great many police, and even their instructors, are pretty sad in their skills with a pistol. And it seems to me that the less they know, the more they are conscious of that fact, and the more advice they try to give out, just to make themselves SEEM to be smarter and more knowledgeable than they really are.

We were once a "nation of riflemen." That's not been true now for an increasingly long time, and we're much the poorer for it. I fear for our country now in more ways than one. Marksmanship is the whole purpose of having a gun! If we don't hit what we shoot at, what good does it do? As Bill Jordan said in his book, "No Second Place Winner," with regard to accuracy, "the entire civilized world has yet to record a single instance of a fatality from a quick, loud noise." I think he hit that nail right on the head. And also, there's that old adage, "Speed's fine, but accuracy's final." I reckon so.

[lightman]

Its a good thing that those old Bullseye shooters back in the 60's and 70's did not know that! I wonder if their records will be canceled or their trophies returned!:-P

Seriously though, I wonder if he only had experience with something like a Glock.

[OS OK]

Many experts, especially those that use the handle as part of their 'name tag' are more in line with 'parrots'. They listen close when the true knowledgeable men speak and go about from there 'parroting' the same without any true understanding of the facts or figures.
If you don't believe this…just ask one to explain something to you that they are parroting about. Be detailed/factual in your question and ask without alarming them to your intentions. Pin them down on the details.
Too many times I have done this…their responses 50% of the time is to…"Baffle me with Bullspit"…many of the others 'don't have time to get into it right at that moment'…the point is that they don't play 'expert' anymore when you are within 'earshot'. If you do this when others are around they may chime in and take him to task and you can sit back and watch the amusing show, either way, the parrots tend to quieten down a bit.

[country gent]

You should see those experts when Im at the range with the BPCR guns with large quanities of Black powder wads and Paper Patched soft lead bullets. They have a field day offering "advice warning and condemnation. Had one tell me I was destrying the rifle as he was seeing smoke and parts coming from the muzzle ( 86 grns 1 1/2 Old Ensfords, .060 wad, 1/8" grease cookie, .020 playing card wad 2 typing paper wads and a 550 grn Paper patched bullet). Tried to explain he was seeing the wads grease cloud and powder smoke along with the confetti from the Paper patched bullet to no Avail he was sure the patch stayed on all the way to the target. He just couldnt understand what was happening and didnt want to learn the old technology from 100+ years ago. I have shot tons of lead in pistols with good results. The swaged hollow base wadcutter from diffrent makers has been a go to in diffrent pistol matches for many years and loaded correctly swaged bullets can be very accurate. My 1911 wadcutter gun loves hornady 38 swaged hollow based wadcutters over 2.6 grns of bullseye. 25 yd groups the size of a quarter from the bench. Alot of these people have never worked with anything but factory ammo and or duty ammo. Most classes here stipulate factory ammo only and the instructors may have little experience with reloads, cast, powder coated, or swaged loads to know understand them.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup, I sometimes chuckle at some officers on the internet that think because there a police officer there opinion somehow counts more then some other. I shoot all the time with our sherrifs dept and sometimes with the city police and state troppers. Out of all of them the sheriffs dept is a bit better but then I give them free practice ammo all the time. Couple of those guys can actually shoot though. the state troppers and city cops ive seen shoot were pretty sad. To make an excuse for them very few depts. have the money to buy practice ammo anymore and about the only shooting they get is once a year qualification. They gave an award every year to the worse shooter in our ppc league. I was in it for 4 years and for 3 of them the same state tropper got the award. Now keep in mind this gun actually shot ppc so he shot no doubt more then probably any other tropper at there station. Amaziningly some are terrible shots but will talk like gun experts and experts on the killing power of the gun they cant shoot. Oh well there are good ones out there too and maybe some states police departments take it more serious.
The sad little secret is that a great many police, and even their instructors, are pretty sad in their skills with a pistol. And it seems to me that the less they know, the more they are conscious of that fact, and the more advice they try to give out, just to make themselves SEEM to be smarter and more knowledgeable than they really are.

We were once a "nation of riflemen." That's not been true now for an increasingly long time, and we're much the poorer for it. I fear for our country now in more ways than one. Marksmanship is the whole purpose of having a gun! If we don't hit what we shoot at, what good does it do? As Bill Jordan said in his book, "No Second Place Winner," with regard to accuracy, "the entire civilized world has yet to record a single instance of a fatality from a quick, loud noise." I think he hit that nail right on the head. And also, there's that old adage, "Speed's fine, but accuracy's final." I reckon so.

[FatherAbraham]

The LEO people that I've spoken with aren't allowed to shoot reloads, ( for duty ) and there are a lot of Glock fans (in the LEO community) that are told to not shoot lead because of the Glocks polygonal rifling's. Not trying to take his side, just trying to understand his position.

[jcwit]

I'm am really glad you have finally found the man who really does know it all.

He should write a book to the rest of us would also have all his knowledge.

[Don Purcell]

The next comment is usually that cast bullets will wear out your barrel so you should only shoot jacketed. I'm sure most of us here have heard that one.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Quite the opposite happened to me a few years ago. I was shooting my M1 and a sporting Mauser with cast loads along side some guys shooting AR's and factory ammo. After going down range a few times, and they were discussing swapping in their AR's for M1's and casting and rolling their own. I started casting for .30 rifle long before I began casting for pistol simply because .38 and .45 commercial cast was so cheap at the time.

[Lloyd Smale]

bottom line is if your shooting factory ammo and don't drive a benz you cant afford to shoot enough to become proficient period and if you want to be in the top 25 percent of accuracy class and dont drive a bmw your going to have to cast your own bullets.

[Rick Hodges]

Some of this nonsense is being promoted by the NRA. I had this discussion with a NRA approved and state certified CCW instructor, about reloads. He pulled out his NRA manual where it told him to forbid the use of reloads in his classes because they are inherently unsafe and pose unacceptable safety risks. I can see their point as they have no control of who reloaded what....but some read that as a blanket condemnation of reloaded ammo of any type. I told him I thought it was just a ploy to sell more factory ammo...(this guy works in a gunshop selling guns and ammo as well as instruction)
I have seen a few indoor ranges are starting to forbid reloaded ammo from their ranges. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

[tdoyka]

I'm am really glad you have finally found the man who really does know it all.

He should write a book to the rest of us would also have all his knowledge.

we should all be lucky to have such an esteemed man.....sorry, i couldn't keep a straight face!!!![smilie=l:

[Kraschenbirn]

...I have seen a few indoor ranges are starting to forbid reloaded ammo from their ranges. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

We've got one of those 'bout a half-mile from where I'm sitting. Not only don't allow reloads, they also don't allow ANY lead bullets (other than .22s) and don't let you pick up your brass if it makes it to floor. When they opened last year, I walked in the door, read the posted range rules, spoke about two minutes with the guy behind the counter to make certain those rules actually meant what they said, and walked out. Haven't been back since. A old shooting buddy was asked to leave when he vociferously challenged their "No Reloads/no lead" policy, pointing out that the generic 'white box' ammo they sell across the counter ($25-$40 a box!) is commercial reloads with COPPER-PLATED lead bullets.

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

our little local gunshop gives ccw classes and I heard him once say that reloads weren't allowed. I thought it was something they made up because they were worried about getting suited. I never would have guessed the nra had anything to do with it. I'm a certified instructor myself but haven't given a class in many years. I don't remember seeing that in any instruction I took. Bottom line was in the big shortage when they couldn't get 9mm or 40 ammo they were buying reloads from a local guy and selling them to people who took the class. I guess it was that or quit giving the class. I guess things were different when it took away money.
Some of this nonsense is being promoted by the NRA. I had this discussion with a NRA approved and state certified CCW instructor, about reloads. He pulled out his NRA manual where it told him to forbid the use of reloads in his classes because they are inherently unsafe and pose unacceptable safety risks. I can see their point as they have no control of who reloaded what....but some read that as a blanket condemnation of reloaded ammo of any type. I told him I thought it was just a ploy to sell more factory ammo...(this guy works in a gunshop selling guns and ammo as well as instruction)
I have seen a few indoor ranges are starting to forbid reloaded ammo from their ranges. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

[country gent]

I was good friends with the LGS owner where I took my CCW classes. (We competed together in NRA High Power and his wife and I shot ispc and bowling pins together) My last renewal class was during the ammo shortage. We were talking about it and I told him I was checking around for the 150 rds of factory ammo required. He smiled and told me go out on the range pick out 3 empty boxes and inserts from the trash and use your handloads. Thier reason for the factory only was they didnt know who orquality of handloads and bad loads slowed the class down to much. He knew my loads and knew me so it was waived. Good thing no one looked close as I picked up federal 45 acp boxes and had win cases loaded and in them LOL.

[gwpercle]

Today, I asked a retired police instructor how I could improve my pistol shooting accuracy. During the conversation, he tells me that I would never get fine accuracy while using lead boolits. He explained that only jacketed bullets will grip the lands and that lead boolits over spin the lands when fired. Wanting to keep the conversation cordial, I backed away from the disagreement. I'd still like to know what he knows about the shooting stuff.

He doesn't know doodley squat , he might think he knows something , but he doesn't.
Pity his student's , nothing worse than being taught incorrect information.

[mold maker]

Local range here says no reloads in THEIR RENTAL guns which is reasonable but allows them in your guns.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive seen ranges that don't allow reloads for the simple reason that they sell ammo and loose money if you don't buy it from them.
Local range here says no reloads in THEIR RENTAL guns which is reasonable but allows them in your guns.

[DerekP Houston]

Local range here says no reloads in THEIR RENTAL guns which is reasonable but allows them in your guns.

That is standard at almost every range I have visited.

[sharpsguy]

All my bullets are jacketed--with paper.

[Boolseye]

Always interesting to hear about other points of view. Tell that to the 4" group I just shot at 50 yds. with HG 68s...

[ascast]

probably arrests people 'cause they need a hair cut - you can always spot a guilty person..... GENIUS !

[jonp]

Without the support of this forum, I may very well have believed the same thing.

^^^^I thought much the same before getting the casting bug and stumbling onto this site with all of the advice and encouragement. I have not bought a jword in a couple of years and reuse all of the lead I shoot. What bullet shortage?

[jonp]

ive seen ranges that don't allow reloads for the simple reason that they sell ammo and loose money if you don't buy it from them.

I've seen the same in NC and also you must leave the brass on the ground. I don't visit twice. The reloads I can understand due to a lawsuit of a very stupid person and an ambulance chasing lawyer but the brass was paid for by me and is mine.

[flyingmonkey35]

I can understand the no reloads in there gun. Makes sense.

They don't know you. And if they did know you very very well. And you want to try out a new gun that came in the may let you shoot your reloads if you pay for the gun upfront.


As for ranges that don't allow picking up brass.

A coworkers / avid reloader states he reloads throw away brass. Steel case etc. Reload it once and walk away from it.

You can find that stuff all over the place.

[TXGunNut]

I was a LEO 25 years and a PPC shooter much of that time and never heard an instructor say something that silly. I loaded and fired over 200K swaged and cast boolits during that time and most folks won't believe the accuracy a swaged HBWC is capable of @ 50 yards. I think some BE shooters and most PPC shooters shooting semi-autos are using J-words so they may indeed be more accurate in those pistols but there aren't a lot of shooters with the skill to take advantage of that accuracy.
In Texas, last I heard anyway, CHL qualification was with factory new ammo. Ammo issues can be annoying at best and dangerous at worst so I don't have a problem with that policy because we all know some folks shouldn't be rolling their own and qualifying next to someone like that is something I'd like to avoid. Instructors have bigger things to worry about than ammo issues.

[375supermag]

Hi...

I have heard the same line about cast lead bullets and reloaded ammunition. My father simply would not use reloads , didn't trust them and wanted no part of them.
Probably half of my handguns have never seen a round of factory ammo or a jacketed bullet in the thousands of rounds I have shot through them.

I have been given grief to no end by people at my gun club who claimed that reloads were dangerous, unsafe and possibly against the will of God. Then again, most of the rifle shooters at my club are more than willing to discuss what reloading data and components they use.

Most indoor shooting ranges in my area do not allow handloads on their range, both because of liability issues and the fact that they sell ammunition. The same ranges won't allow any one to pick up their brass...I do not shoot at those ranges. Strange that some of those ranges also sell once-fired brass.

[marlin39a]

Looks like all of us have been doing it wrong. Me for almost 40 yrs.

[BrassMagnet]

Seems to me that the know it all types are just covering for a fragile ego. Aside from being a bore, you kind of have to feel sorry for 'em. I usually just smile, nod my head and let 'em rant.

Sometimes they are just repeating what they were taught. Marksmanship instructors can be the worst. They have false reasons to believe they are the best and the resident experts.
They seldom run into real experts in their classes.

[jonp]

our little local gunshop gives ccw classes and I heard him once say that reloads weren't allowed. I thought it was something they made up because they were worried about getting suited. I never would have guessed the nra had anything to do with it. I'm a certified instructor myself but haven't given a class in many years. I don't remember seeing that in any instruction I took. Bottom line was in the big shortage when they couldn't get 9mm or 40 ammo they were buying reloads from a local guy and selling them to people who took the class. I guess it was that or quit giving the class. I guess things were different when it took away money.
"Getting suited"? Is that worse than getting pants? :bigsmyl2:

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I would have used that as an opening asking if he had any lead he wanted to get rid of. Just saying...
jeepyj

Maybe, given time, that is what he would have done. More likely, though, he was well trained and competent in all his job required of him, which was teaching policemen to point a gun in the right direction.

There was a limited amount of truth in what he said. Besides some commercial bullets, someone who simply says "I've got a .38. Better buy a .38 mould then", can easily fail to get jacketed bullet accuracy. But with properly thought out casting processes... Oh, does anybody really need to say that here.

I've got "The NRA Gunsmithing Guide Updated", which includes an article by a US military competitive shooting instructor. His advice, odd in that context when you think about it, was mostly to do no gunsmithing whatever. He also said it was very useful to be able to identify the various powders by appearance - a big no-no, I always thought. I'd have advised people to keep labels on them.

[Nose Dive]

"poor accuracy' from lead boolits is certainly an interesting position. Under certain conditions, I may agree.

However, with the right boolit design, right hardness of the alloy, the right powder and right charge, the right firearm, I may disagree.

I am no longer an 'accuracy' champion. Bad eyes, shaky hands, and pistols are old, rifles need new optics, and lack of routine and proper 'practice'.

But, when I do shoot, a vast majority of pistol boolits are sent down range from my old Ruger and my hand smelted, alloyed and casted boolits under my Unique Powder charges from my 'hand crafted' reloads. I have swapped and change to Barnes all copper offerings and these too are situated atop my own reloaded cartridges. Here, my accuracy 'tests' show I am not better with my Barnes loads than my lead boolits.

So, i have to disagree with this person who says 'due to the load being a hand made lead boolit', it will be less accurate because of this construction issue.

This is just my experience with my testing situations.

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.