7.65X53 Argentine vs 7.65X54 Belgian

[alamogunr]

I try to follow every thread on the above 2 cartridges. In every case there are various reasons(theories, guesses) about the difference between the two cartridges, or rather brass. I can't find all the threads right now but thought I would throw in my 2¢, not that it is backed by any particular inside knowledge or experience. I have one 1891 Argentine and have just started to reform brass to 7.65X53.

After reading all the threads I could find over the last couple of months, I've come to the conclusion that, for me, they are one and the same. The only thing I've done to back that up is go to the C.I.P. site and look up both. All I find is 7.65 X 53 Argentine, no 7.65 X 54 Belgian. But, the two sets of dies(RCBS & Hornady) I have are labeled Mauser and Belgian. Apparently there are no SAAMI standards. The C.I.P. sheet on the Argentine shows a max cartridge length of 53.6mm. One poster in one of the aforementioned threads said that the length for both was 53.5mm and in one case they rounded down and in the other they rounded up. This makes more sense to me than two different cartridges.

The one thing I cannot reconcile is the difference in dies. With no standards, how does a manufacturer decide that the correct dimension is the Belgian Mauser and make it longer?

I hope that those with more knowledge and experience than I, will jump in and clear this up. Regardless, the cartridges themselves will not change and the adjustments that have to be made to get them to chamber in a particular rifle will still have to be made.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, I agree with you. In my opinion they are one and the same. Back in the middle 1950s I purchased a mint condition 1891 Argentine Mauser (and several more since!) and the ammunition was billed as 7.65x53mm Argentine. I don't believe that I ran across the x54mm Belgian until years later. When I did, we used to joke that perhaps the Belgians produced better micrometers. I can guarantee, having tried it, that a cartridge with either label will fit, function and fire in either a Belgian 1889 or an Argentine 1891 Mauser. 1 mm is significant in bullet diameter, but for practical purposes is negligible in cartridge length. Were the manufacturers, Mauser in this case, to cut the chambers of military rifles so precisely that one 54 mm in length would not fit in one 53mm in length, then cases made with normal +/- specification variations and even dirty cases would not fit.

It seems as though, through the years, the 7.65x54mm designation has won out for popular usage. In these later years I have even seen the Argentine Mausers described as using 7.65x54mm ammunition.

[Hamish]

Interesting.

Very much like the .30 Mauser and the .30 Makarov.

Ran across this: http://chuckhawks.com/7-65x53_7-65x53R.htm

.

[runfiverun]

I based my 2 different ones opinion on the various rifles I have had over the years.

LEE dies make x54 rounds and they fit Littlegirls rifle perfectly.
I had to buy a second die set [RCBS] to fit the other 2 rifles I have.
I cannot put little girls ammo in rifle number-2 or number-3 but can swap 2 and 3 around with ease or put them in littlegirls rifle and blow the case shoulder forward so that it doesn't fit either of the other 2 rifles.
I have had other ones that were the same way, and have shot some mil-surp ammo that wouldn't fit some of the rifles either.

they aren't the only ones to do this the 7.5 swiss rifles started out as x53 then x54 then the K-31 come along and made it finally the x55.
some of the older rifles [98 and 98-11] have been lengthened or re-barreled adding to the confusion.

[leadman]

I have been doing research lately on these old guns and cartridges with the help of Colin Webster's book: Argentine Mauser Rifles, 1871 to 1959. I also rebarreled two 1891 actions with New Old Stock 1891 barrels. Some clarity was also noted in the varying bore sizes encountered.
First to the seemingly different chamber lengths. The Argentine military purchased 3 extra barrels with each gun purchased. Both of the NOS barrels I installed were short chambered by about .010" to .015". It was possible for me to form brass to fit the first rebarrel I did just over a year ago to fit and fire just fine without extending the chamber. I had a shell holder that I used many years before obtaining the RCBS trim die that I had ground some off of the top to form my brass. Another way to form brass to fit the short chamber would be to place a .020" feeler guage under the brass case in the shell holder. This is just about the length that my original set of Lee Argentine Mauser dies were too long. I sold those and bought a set of RCBS Belgian dies years ago.
I think that these NOS barrels have been installed without the chamber being reamed out to the proper length.
As a side note after I did the second rebarrel a few weeks ago I rented the chamber reamer and headspace gauges from 4D. I have 2 other 1891 rifles besides the rebarrels and found that the PTG brand headspace GO gauge was too long for the 2 other guns. One of these had a NOS barrel installed about 20 years ago by a gunsmith and the other has an original barrel on it. Factory, surplus ammo, and my reloads worked fine in these so the 2 new rebarrels were reamed and checked with the factory, surplus and my reloads for headspace.

Bore sizes of .311" and .313" are encountered frequently in these rifles. The original bore size was .311" and the ammunition was loaded with a round nose bullet of about 200 grains and .311" diameter. On March 18, 1910 the bullet diameter was changed to 7.94mm, or about .3125", weight was 182grs and it was a spitzer design. New sights were received for the 1891 rifles and carbines on August 15, 1911, but all were not changed before the 1891 guns were replaced by the 1909 models. There is a mention that modifications were made to the 1891s due to the new bullet and powder but no hint as to what these were.
I am thinking but can not find proof, that replacement barrels after the bullet change had a larger bore size to match the new bullet. One of the NOS barrels I installed is .311", the other is .313".
Something I found interesting is that Mauser lapped each barrel at the factory by machine 38 strokes during manufacturer.

[EDG]

Handloader Magazine had a long letter from an Argentine ordinance officer that explained it.
The correct name in Argentina is 7.65 Mauser. That is it. The ordinance office said anything else is just nomenclature and is not official.
The nomenclature is not official meaning it does not have any exact interpretation. So 53mm does not mean exactly 53mm.
The CIP drawing is titled 7.65X53 but the maximum length of the cartridge case is 53.6mm and the minimum length of the chamber is 53.7mm.

The various length dies such as Lee's are just errors. Lee did not do his homework. He could have at least tested his dies before putting them on the market.

This is the chamber length of 4 Rifles that I have checked with a .375 gauge datum diameter.



M1891 DWM

7.65
1.822


M1891 Lowe
7.65
1.821


M1891 DWM
7.65
1.820


M1898/09 DWM
7.65
1.820



This is the same measurement taken with a .375 gauge datum diameter for new brass and loaded factory ammo.



Norma Factory Ammo =
1.812 -1.816


Norma brass =
1.815


PPU ammo =
1.819 -1.821


PPU brass =
1.818



I have once fired brass from several other rifles besides my own that measures 1.820

In addition I have a few rounds of Argentine ammo that I measured at about 1.818 though the shoulders were poorly formed.

The following are the same measurements from several trim and FL dies. Note that the Lee die does NOT match the rifles, the ammo or the other dies.
The Lee dies are simply wrong and I have seen the same information posted by other handloaders at least 4 times in addition to my own die set.



7.65 Mauser

66
RCBS
TRIM
.375
1.816


7.65 Mauser


Lyman
FL
.375
1.814


7.65 Mauser
88
RCBS
FL
.375
1.818



7.65 Mauser
N
RCBS
FL
.375
1.819


7.65 Mauser


LEE
FL
.375
1.838



You and I can both provide anecdotes but the physical evidence of the rifles, the ammo and the dies says there is only one chamber.
This chamber agrees with the CIP dimensions. However CIP does not provide a gauge dimension. It has to be calculated using trigonometry.




Gauge length







From Head






To Datum






Circle






Answer
Max
Min Cartridge



1.8224
Cartridge
1.8145035092





Calculation for the CIP chamber dimensions.

There are no gage dimensions for CIP chambers that I know of so I made up gauge lengths based on SAAMI practice.




Minimum









Chamber
GO






1.8169
Minimum Chamber


























1.8208
NO GO
I added .1 mm to the min chamber.















1.8248
FIELD
Guess I decide this one too.









Add .2 mm to minimum






This is all I know about the cartridge and it is all derived from Ludwig Lowe, DWM, RCBS, Lyman, Lee, PPU, Norma and the CIP drawings.

[Ed in North Texas]

Interesting.

Very much like the .30 Mauser and the .30 Makarov.

Ran across this: http://chuckhawks.com/7-65x53_7-65x53R.htm

.

7.62x25mm Tokarev 7.63x25mm Mauser. Same cartridge. I keep both brass because I load the Mauser lighter in deference to the age of the pistols (and value vs. a NSWP Czech 52 or Soviet TT33).

[GONRA]

GONRA sez Ed should be careful.
Made-To-Spec 7.62mm Tokarev cartridges have little smaller head diameter and shorter case length
than 7.63mm Mauser pistol cartridges.
The fact that these 2 cartridges "seem to have the same dimensions"
reflects the wide variation on manufacturing, chamber dimensions, over the years.

You can grab isolated ammo and pistol samples of this stuff and prove almost any point you want.

European ammo factories have/can turned out some real 9mm Steyr / 9mm Bergman-Bayard (Largo) **** too.
Head dimensions all screwed up....