Yugo M48, Lee mould C324-175-1R…PC or LubeSized (?) Powder (?) Primer (?) 200Yd.

[OS OK]

I received this rifle as a gift, still in its packaging from 1950-2 or thereabout…has all the trimmings in box…WOW…First I cleaned and reworked the stock removing the excess wood so many have (too much thickness and weight in places)…Second I have thoroughly cleaned the action, barrel ( I doubt that it has been shot 10 times, the lands and grooves look new ), took the bolt apart, cleaned & oiled…in short, I've done all that I know to do to prepare it for its late debut in life.
I want to load and shoot only cast boolits and to strive for the most perfection I can get out of it. 8MM is a new caliber in my humble stable and totally new to me for casting and loading. I want to keep stock sights and I want to make it 'at least' a 2MOA shooter @ 200 yards with the correct load and lead composite. I can do both PC and lubesize and would like to document the progress and comparison between the two and later post the results.
To start the CB will be the Lee C324-175-1R it is a gas check type boolit and I think that weight will be correct for the 1:9.5 rifling (its been several months since I measured that but think that is correct…correct me if not right ) and if possible I would like to develop enough speed to make the factory sights work properly. I don't know what trajectory they match up to.
I have read all the posts I can to prepare and have a couple of starting recipes for the 2400 and SR4759 but the more I read about using the 'reduced loads' and all the 'controversy that has arisen out of that' and the fact that reduced loads of the slower rifle powers can cause a 'S.E.E.' ( I spent the last two hours reading on the S.E.E. effect…Thank You Larry Gibson…How do you get all that information in your brain without it running out your ears? )…Well to say the least, I am a 'bit' concerned. I hope to get a discussion going here about what I am trying to accomplish with the specific components listed thus far…I hope that there are at least a few of you fellas out there that have worked this projectile to its limits and will share a little information with me. I need to comprehend a few things as we go so that I will have a good starting point and would like to take it from there all the way through ladder testing to find the perfect load/node combination. From what I have read and what I see in the quality of this rifle…this should be a fine CB shooter.

Thank You all before we start, for your time and information…OS OK

PS…the fella, Sam Houston, that gave me this rifle has challenged me to do this and come to his range and outshoot him…I taught him how to cast/reload 2 years back…but this fella is a fine shot with his M48 already…he's younger, talented and has great eyes…this ain't going to be easy!

[kungfustyle]

I have the M48 and use 25.5g 4759 w/ the Lee boolit. I get about 3" groups at 100 yards with Lyman 57 Peep sight. If I remember correctly the irons that came with the rifle were in between 5 and 600meter mark that's why I went with the peep sight. I didn't want to aim high or low. But now I know that there are replacement sight for the front sight that I could have ground down to get poa with my cast loads. Great gun. I've tried the NOE 326427 Loverlern bullet and the RD dog. Loverlern did OK bout didn't outshout the Lee mold and the RD did fine but couldn't get it to feed properly. Maybe the NOE 216g sp mold might be a better choice. 2400 did fine but I bought an 8 lber of 4759 before they **** hit the fan and I'm still working on that one.

[OS OK]

Thanks kungfustyle…I think it was one of your post that said:….25.5g. / SR4759 or could start at…16g. / Hercules 2400
Then someone chimed in with…"2400 is position sensitive and will string vertically so use a Magnum Large Rifle Primer"…the confusion started there.

Another fella, I think…Outpost75…said that H110, W296, & 2400 could cause problems at a less than 50% case fill.
He recommended that @ less than 40% case fill…Bullseye, Red Dot, 700-X, W231, Titegroup, SR7625, Unique, PB, Clays, R100 & WST would be choices/stable/non position sensitive.
At this point another fella mentioned using powders that have less 'burn regulating coating' like these fast to medium fast pistol powders you can run into 'detonation' in chamber and that detonation was a problem using small amounts of this fast powder…then another chimes in with something like …"Never heard of that!"
Well, I have heard and read warnings years back about 'detonation' and that has always been in the back of my mind as I read of 'Mouse Fart' loads etc.
Surly there are threads here that list some 'Hard and Fast Rules' in this business…after all Cast Boolits is the 'leading edge'…right?

"Awaiting an Enlightenment"…OS OK

Is there a sticky or thread somewhere that has addressed all these concerns? I have an old Powder Manual I consort with from time to time but I haven't read anything that I remember about this type of intentional loads of fast/small amounts of pistol/shotgun powders.

PS…Please don't assume that I'm not 'searching' as I have and continue to do so…I'm just OCD regarding 'experimenting" outside the 'guidelines'!

[kungfustyle]

This is the one that got me started. 2400 isn't position sensitive or that's what the article said. But that is where I started. If you want to use a powder like 4895 use Dacron filler and wow! Great groups. 4895, 3031, 4198, reloader 7 and is what the Lyman cast handbook recommends using. Pistol powders stay away from the dacron but at like 5g or so you should be fine. Read this article:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article
As for the dacron get a load first and then back off a grain and reload using about 1/2 to 3/4" square fluffed out to take up the case volume. IE if the load uses up less than 60% of the case. One way to tell if you need to use it is get a pet load and raise the bbl and slowly lower before each shot. If you get better groups then go with dacron.

[kungfustyle]

PS don't try H110 or 296 with this. These are great powders but are meant for magnum pistol powder. The don't play nice unless the case is almost competently full and magnum primers. No good for this application. 2400 is good and Unique is used a lot.
Detonation happens when there is to little powder (like a rifle powder) and the pressure builds past the point of popping the bullet from the crimp and you have made a little pipe bomb. Not a good thing for a rifle. Remember we are using propellants not explosives and they act kinda like rocket fuel shoving everything out of the mouth of the case. If there is too much room....pop goes the rifle. With the right amount of pistol powder this doesn't happen look how much tightgroup or bulleseye goes into a case. Pressure builds and goes where its intended.

[frkelly74]

If you can find it, Herco is really good for cast in rifles mid power loads. It is slower than unique and is gentler on the boolit. I used about 10 to 13 gr in 8mm with the lee boolit and could break eggs at 50 to 60 yds with one of my rifles.

[OS OK]

If you can find it, Herco is really good for cast in rifles mid power loads. It is slower than unique and is gentler on the boolit. I used about 10 to 13 gr in 8mm with the lee boolit and could break eggs at 50 to 60 yds with one of my rifles.

Last year I found a 4 pound cardboard canister of it that was almost full…it looked (checked it in sunlight for discoloration) and smelled just fine.
The pawnshop owner said…"How bout, say…$20.00?" I almost tore my back pocket off getting my wallet out so fast!

I've worked up .38/.357/.45ACP loads using it but in the .45 it's awful dirty…now if I can use it in the 8mm I'll be tickled pink!

Thank you frkelly74…and kungfustyle...OS OK

PS?…Could you use corn meal or grits and compress the load to do the dacron thing…old school?

[RU shooter]

Sir there are lots of different powders that work real well for your application from unique on the fast side to 4895 on the slow end . All can be made to work for targets at 200 yds you really don't need a ton of vel. to do it either even my subsonic load of a meager 6 gr of bullseye in the 30-06 shoots darn well at 200 yd . Pick a powder you have and start on the slow end and shoots some groups . For me personally I like unique and 2400 but as stated lots of different folks have good results with other . Good luck

[frkelly74]

I would not use any filler for Herco loads. That was an excellent find on your Herco. I thought I did well when the supply house I was going to had it and green dot for $10 a pound to move it out of their way.

[Streetwalker]

I have a DOT 43 and it is a wonderful cast bullet shooter. I use Lyman's 323470 mold with 16 gr. of 2400 and a Win. mag. primer. I seat the bullet so that the gas check is at the bottom of the neck and I lightly crimp into the lube groove with a Lee 8x57 crimp die. This load shoots wonderfully in every German 98k that I have tried it in over a period of many years. I have found over the years that I get better accuracy with a mag. primer and 2400 than standard force primers in all the military calibers I shoot. The above-mentioned load will consistently shoot into the four hundreds for the 100 yd. reduced CMP target course of fire and is easy to load and an absolute pleasure to shoot!

[OS OK]

Thanks…Streetwalker…On another forum I found that anywhere from the 16g. starting load @ around 1,500 FPS…through…21g. max. load @ 17-1,800 FPS is the cursory guidelines and as you said the Mag. primer lights them more consistently with the 2400.
Looks like a standard ladder test loaded at .5g. increments will locate the nodes and I can work the loads in from there for best MOA as I try to match FPS with the sights but that will depend on trajectory 2-500 meters…I don't think I can exactly parallel the sniper loads because they were at about 2,400 FPS & J-boolits.
Waiting on new brass to arrive…can't wait to get on with this project.
I've noticed that the lower ES's published have given the best groups too…guess that is a no-brainer though.

Thanks…OS OK

[runfiverun]

with 2400 the lower brisance primers require more powder to gain back your velocity and accuracy.
in the 0-6 I found switching to large pistol primers from rifle primers needed another grain of powder to gain back my accuracy/velocity window.

with your set-up I'd go right to 18grs of 2400 and a standard rifle primer.
positioning the powder against the primer for each shot might increase your accuracy by creating a better ignition sequence.
you can also go to 4895 powder and increase the load from 28 to 30grains the extra powder will act like the filler it generally needs at the 28gr level and approximate the same velocity also.
as far as using Herco? I'd use unique data and work to 1 gr above the recommended load or go to 9 grs and move towards 11 you'll find something in there that works well.

to avoid the SEE your worried about. seat the boolit out so it is engraving the nose on the lands.
what this does is makes the pressure come up high enough so that the powder is burning well enough [and raises pressure high enough to insure it burns well] so that once the boolit starts moving it can't stop because the gas volume is already too high.

a filler is just a powder positioner to insure you get equal ignition characteristics, this avoids vertical stringing caused by velocity variations.
powders in the H-322 to the 4064 burn rate do burn much better and more consistent with the use of a filler because the filler tricks the powder into thinking it is in a smaller case size and that the powder is actually too slow for that case size.
in the 8 mauser the filler makes the powder think it's in a 308 or 300 savage sized case and thus 28 grs is more like an 80% fill rather than a 60% fill.
the velocity isn't affected the same because the powder can only create so much gas volume and the expansion ratio inside the bigger case takes much of the pressure away before it goes down the barrel.

[OS OK]

Thank you runfiverun…that tip on setting the nose in the rifling makes all the sense in the world to me!
Thank 'all of you' for your help and personal observations...

OS OK