Best twist rate to properly stabilize .480 LBT LFN/WFN 420 gr. boolit @ 900-1,000 fps

[480guy]

My first post in likely the best forum where to get the very best answer(s) to this question.

The boolit is a .480 Ruger LBT, say, similar like this one: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=48-420R-D.png cast with WW and water quenched.
The powder charge, say, 18-19 gr. of W296/H110 (or perhaps an appropriate HS6 charge?) primed by a CCI 350 which will likely achieve around 900-1,000 fps out of a 4" tube in a wheelgun which main purpose is personal defense against dangerous animals while in the wilderness, including Alaska.
I've been toying with the idea of having a well-used Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan .480 customized by adding a 4" barrel (with a faster twist rate, say, between 1:10" and 1:15" in order to properly stabilize this heavy-per-caliber boolit in the short 4" barrel at velocities lower than would be optimal with the original 1:18-3/4" twist rate of the Alaskan), tightening the cylinder-barrel gap a bit, smoothing out the trigger, perhaps even adding improved front and rear sights. The end result would be a far more accurate (within the limits posed by the short barrel), easy to carry and fun to shoot revolver which could also serve as an occasional hunting and target practice gun. Another way to go about it could be starting with a mid-frame Ruger SA (even easier to carry) and having it modified, say, a la Jack Huntington, but I'd rather have a double action gun for this purpose.

The feedback I care most about here is concerning proper twist rate to go for for this application, but I will appreciate all of your comments, ideas and suggestions...

[Groo]

Groo here
First take the bullet and down load it [ Trailboss powder] to that level.
Barrel length has no effect [ within reason not a 1in] on how stable a given bullet is.
Rotational speed [ rate of twist x velocity ] is the key.
By slowing the velocity down to what you expect from the 4in and putting it on paper ,you will find what you want to know.
If all is well ,chop the barrel and go for it!!
Ps if you drop down to 370 gr [ Linebaugh load for the 475] you change the twist requirements greatly.[ like 3 to 4 turns per inch]

[str8wal]

I believe the 1:18 will do fine. I ran some estimated data relative to BC and boolit length and even at 1:36 it comes up marginally stable.

[480guy]

Groo here
First take the bullet and down load it [ Trailboss powder] to that level.
Barrel length has no effect [ within reason not a 1in] on how stable a given bullet is.
Rotational speed [ rate of twist x velocity ] is the key.
By slowing the velocity down to what you expect from the 4in and putting it on paper ,you will find what you want to know.
If all is well ,chop the barrel and go for it!!
Ps if you drop down to 370 gr [ Linebaugh load for the 475] you change the twist requirements greatly.[ like 3 to 4 turns per inch]

Actually, the Alaskan comes standard with a 2.5" barrel, so there's nothing to chop there, its barrel needs to be replaced with a longer one for this project, if I decide to go for it.
My experience in the .480 (I also own a Ruger SRH .480 with 7.5" tube, which is definitely not going to get chopped) is that, especially with heavy boolits such as the 420 gr, as velocity decreases groups start to open up, and that is why I asked about a twist rate that might be better for this application, with accuracy in mind.
Since the barrel needs to be replaced anyway, I thought it would be a good idea to experiment with a faster twist rate to see how much of an improvement in accuracy the faster twist can bring about with the big boolit at lower velocities.

[480guy]

I believe the 1:18 will do fine. I ran some estimated data relative to BC and boolit length and even at 1:36 it comes up marginally stable.


Again, as pointed out in my previous answer to Groo, my experience in my gun has been that groups open up with heavy boolits as velocity is decreased. It seems to make sense to me that a faster twist rate would improve accuracy at lower velocities by improving stability. But I've been wrong before... Hence my asking here.
Thank you for running your data, and I believe you that it looks stable, at least theoretically, as you say. However, it would be great to also hear from others in this forum who have experimented in real life with heavy boolits at lower velocities and a faster twist rate in this caliber, if any are present. Hopefully, someone here has and will chime in.

[clintsfolly]

Pac nor makes A 1/10 and 1/16 if this helps

[osteodoc08]

Using the Berger calculator and theoretical values for BC

0.150 BC
0.475" diameter
0.98" length (based on drawing provided)
420gr
1000 fps

your factory barrel (1:18.75 stated above) stabilizes the bullet just fine

playing with the calculator, once the twist rate falls slower than 1:32" or so does it become marginal.

[dubber123]

After all the grief reported by 9mm cast shooters, many think it's fast twist may be partly to fault. I would be leery of going TOO fast. The poster who lists the 1:16" Pac-Nor barrel probably picked a good one.

I have a 6.5" 50-70 barrel for a Contender, and it will shoot well under 1" at 50 yds with 450 grain boolits. I have not tested past that, so your theory may still prove true. The twist on that barrel is 1:26".

[44man]

Groups do open with too heavy and slow. My BFR .475 is 1 in 15" and I use my 420 gr at 1329 fps. Using .480 loads they do not shoot as well.
I also use a 330 gr in my .44 and they did 1-5/16" at 200 from the 1 in 20 164901twist but slowing them did this at 50 yards. It is quite dramatic to see the difference when spin is lacking. Spin difference from my best load to this shotgun pattern is 11,376 rpm's.
The reason a short barrel is harder is you can't reach velocity.
My .420 gr in the .475 will slow by 15, 792 rpm's at 1000 fps.
The 420 at 1000 fps from the .480 factory twist will lose 25,192 rpm's.
Going to a 1 in 36", you lose 43,792 rpm's.
I have never found a detriment to a faster twist because you can slow boolits to the spin it needs.
A 420 gr at 1000 from a 1 in 16" rate is 45,000 rpm's, same boolit at 1329 fps will be 59,805 rpm's which is still less then my .475's 63,792 rpm's where I get the best accuracy.
1 in 10" would work at less then 900 fps. about 885 fps.

[Groo]

Groo here
I though 44man would have the data!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[480guy]

Pac nor makes A 1/10 and 1/16 if this helps Thanks for pointing it out, it's very helpful to know. I'd be tempted to go with the 1:10" twist rate, then, if I were to go with a Pac Nor barrel for this project. To give an example of a successful implementation of a 1:10" twist in a big bore wheelgun with in mind heavy-for-caliber boolit stabilization, take for instance the John Ross's Edition of the S&W .500 magnum which, with its relatively short 5" barrel with a twist rate of 1:10" can easily stabilize a 725 gr. boolit @ 800 fps at over 100 yards, a feat impossible for the standard production S&W .500 magnum revolvers with their factory 1:18" twist rate, which requires the 725 gr. boolit to be launched at at least 1,100 fps in order to keep it stable at 100 yards. By the way, I have no desire to own such a monstrous, to me impractical gun, this is just to illustrate my argument for a faster than factory standard twist rate when using the biggest boolits for a given caliber at low/medium velocities. Only the highest velocities attainable will properly stabilize them with the standard twists.

[480guy]

Using the Berger calculator and theoretical values for BC 0.150 BC 0.475" diameter 0.98" length (based on drawing provided) 420gr 1000 fps your factory barrel (1:18.75 stated above) stabilizes the bullet just fine playing with the calculator, once the twist rate falls slower than 1:32" or so does it become marginal. Again, sometimes what works just fine in theory does not necessarily do so in practice. Take what Marlin has done with its 1894 model in 44 magnum: that 1:38" twist rate does not stabilize boolits over 300 gr. too well in practice, even though Marlin's pre-production calculations obviously must have "proved" to them it would have. I can easily take a 345 gr. boolit in a cartridge that does 800 fps or so out of a .45LC sixgun and then shoot it in a Marlin Cowboy .45LC with its standard 1:16" twist rate and expect it to stabilize just fine, but the same cannot be achieved, say, with a 240 gr. .44 magnum cowboy load at 800 fps (which does just fine in a 1:20" twist .44 mag sixgun) out of the 1:38" twist of the Marlin 1894 .44 mag, it will just not properly stabilize it and the same goes for heavy boolits over 325 gr. at even 1,200-1,300 fps out of the 1:38 twist. Or, take for instance heavy-for-caliber boolits that you can shoot just fine out of a .45LC sixgun with its 1:16" standard twist at 800 fps and try shooting them in the .454 Casull (1:24" twist rate) at the same velocity and you'll see that groups substantially open up, due to the slower twist in the Casull, even when shooting them in .454 cases.

[480guy]

After all the grief reported by 9mm cast shooters, many think it's fast twist may be partly to fault. I would be leery of going TOO fast. The poster who lists the 1:16" Pac-Nor barrel probably picked a good one.

I have a 6.5" 50-70 barrel for a Contender, and it will shoot well under 1" at 50 yds with 450 grain boolits. I have not tested past that, so your theory may still prove true. The twist on that barrel is 1:26".

Well, at what velocity are you shooting the 450 gr. boolit under 1" at 50 yds in your big bore Contender? Also take into account that 450 gr. in your .50-70 is not as "heavy" as 420 gr. in a .475, you can go way heavier before approaching the practical boolit weight limit for that caliber. And that, as you stated, you haven't tested at over 50 yards.

[480guy]

Groups do open with too heavy and slow. My BFR .475 is 1 in 15" and I use my 420 gr at 1329 fps. Using .480 loads they do not shoot as well.
I also use a 330 gr in my .44 and they did 1-5/16" at 200 from the 1 in 20 164901twist but slowing them did this at 50 yards. It is quite dramatic to see the difference when spin is lacking. Spin difference from my best load to this shotgun pattern is 11,376 rpm's.
The reason a short barrel is harder is you can't reach velocity.
My .420 gr in the .475 will slow by 15, 792 rpm's at 1000 fps.
The 420 at 1000 fps from the .480 factory twist will lose 25,192 rpm's.
Going to a 1 in 36", you lose 43,792 rpm's.
I have never found a detriment to a faster twist because you can slow boolits to the spin it needs.
A 420 gr at 1000 from a 1 in 16" rate is 45,000 rpm's, same boolit at 1329 fps will be 59,805 rpm's which is still less then my .475's 63,792 rpm's where I get the best accuracy.
1 in 10" would work at less then 900 fps. about 885 fps.

Thank you for your input, 44man, it is greatly appreciated. :) I took the time to read also several of your other posts and they were all very helpful, I can see we speak the same language.
So, very good, you are confirming the 1:10" twist rate that I suspected would work just fine for my intended application, that is for a revolver basically dedicated to shooting 420 gr. boolits between 900 and 1,000 fps.
By the way, congrats on your shooting, the accuracy you are capable of is...inspiring, to say the least!

Any other barrel makers that I should look into besides Pac Nor for 1:10" twist barrels? Any suggestions as to whom to go to get this type of work done?

[dubber123]

Well, at what velocity are you shooting the 450 gr. boolit under 1" at 50 yds in your big bore Contender? Also take into account that 450 gr. in your .50-70 is not as "heavy" as 420 gr. in a .475, you can go way heavier before approaching the practical boolit weight limit for that caliber. And that, as you stated, you haven't tested at over 50 yards.

Velocity runs right about 1,000 fps. with the 450's. I was pretty sure it was a "shorter" boolit than your 420 gr. but then again, the twist is much slower.

I have shot some 405 gr. .475 boolits into 1" 50 yd groups from my 4.75" .475 Linebaugh F/A, at a chronoed 550 fps. muzzle velocity. (5.5 grains of Trailboss). I am not sure of the twist F/A uses, but it's not on the fast side. It will not stabilize my normal 440 gr. WFN at 800 fps., so the twist is marginal for slow, heavy boolits.

[480guy]

Velocity runs right about 1,000 fps. with the 450's. I was pretty sure it was a "shorter" boolit than your 420 gr. but then again, the twist is much slower.

I have shot some 405 gr. .475 boolits into 1" 50 yd groups from my 4.75" .475 Linebaugh F/A, at a chronoed 550 fps. muzzle velocity. (5.5 grains of Trailboss). I am not sure of the twist F/A uses, but it's not on the fast side. It will not stabilize my normal 440 gr. WFN at 800 fps., so the twist is marginal for slow, heavy boolits.

The twist rate Freedom Arms uses in the .475L, if memory serves correctly, is 1:18". Your 405 gr. did really well at 50 yds considering the low velocity and standard twist rate of your gun..it would be very interesting to see how well it performs at 100 yds at that muzzle velocity. As to your 440 gr. .475 WFN , do you get that sort of accuracy with it (1" groups at 50 yds) and at what velocities, in your experience?

[dubber123]

The twist rate Freedom Arms uses in the .475L, if memory serves correctly, is 1:18". Your 405 gr. did really well at 50 yds considering the low velocity and standard twist rate of your gun..it would be very interesting to see how well it performs at 100 yds at that muzzle velocity. As to your 440 gr. .475 WFN , do you get that sort of accuracy with it (1" groups at 50 yds) and at what velocities, in your experience?

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_0011.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/dubber123/media/IMG_0011.jpg.html)

My club has a decent sized steel plate at 200 meters, maybe 18" square. I have no problem hitting it offhand when the 440's are started at 1,300+. When started at 800 fps. I have a hard time keeping them on a 2' paper target at 50, so the twist is indeed marginal with the 440s.

The smaller group is with the 440s, it is my most accurate boolit. The lighter 400ish designs are much more tolerant of low velocities though, due to the slowish twist.

[480guy]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_0011.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/dubber123/media/IMG_0011.jpg.html)

My club has a decent sized steel plate at 200 meters, maybe 18" square. I have no problem hitting it offhand when the 440's are started at 1,300+. When started at 800 fps. I have a hard time keeping them on a 2' paper target at 50, so the twist is indeed marginal with the 440s.

The smaller group is with the 440s, it is my most accurate boolit. The lighter 400ish designs are much more tolerant of low velocities though, due to the slowish twist.

Thanks so much for your input and picture, it is all very much appreciated! Beautiful gun, by the way, and good shooting on your part!

You seem to confirm, with your experience, what was previously said by 44man (and the data he has provided), that is, maximally heavy boolits out of a .475 bore (I think that 440 gr. is the practical weight limit for the .475L as well) need either maximal velocity or a much faster twist rate than factory standard in order to truly stabilize at low/medium velocities and be, therefore, optimally accurate at 100 yards and beyond.

Is your smaller group with the 440s at around 1,300 fps? And is your 440 gr. a WFN? If you don't mind sharing, I'd like to know what mold it came from, or what specific boolit it is if from a commercial caster.

[dubber123]

The 440s average 1,340 fps. from the 4.75" barrel. The mold is an LBT WFN gas check, WW+ 2% tin is the alloy most of these get made from. I think a 1-16 would be sufficient, especially with the slightly lighter boolit you intend on shooting. That said, if a faster twist really has no negatives, why not, you will be sure to have enough spin.

That short 50-70 I have is a 1-26", and that is what the mfg. of the barrel suggested. That said, I wish I had gone with the 1-16" that was an option. It is fine with 400s and 450s, but 500s don't do as well.

[480guy]

The 440s average 1,340 fps. from the 4.75" barrel. The mold is an LBT WFN gas check, WW+ 2% tin is the alloy most of these get made from. I think a 1-16 would be sufficient, especially with the slightly lighter boolit you intend on shooting. That said, if a faster twist really has no negatives, why not, you will be sure to have enough spin.

That short 50-70 I have is a 1-26", and that is what the mfg. of the barrel suggested. That said, I wish I had gone with the 1-16" that was an option. It is fine with 400s and 450s, but 500s don't do as well.

The reason why I asked for the details of your mold is that, given the shorter cylinder in the F/A, I would assume that a standard length .475 WFN 440 gr. boolit would have to be seated so deep in the case as to cause bulging and it would also reduce case capacity thereby raising pressures a lot with those heavy boolits...so I am curious as to what 440 gr. boolit you are using specifically in your F/A, is it a short-nosed one like those from some ballistic cast molds?
[EDIT: Sorry, you already specified it is an LBT.]

1:16" seems to me still slow for a .475 420 gr. @ around 900 fps. Probably 1:12" would be a better compromise for 900 to 1,000 fps, but I think I could live with 1:10". By the way, that aforementioned John Ross's Edition S&W .500 mag revolver with 1:10" twist and 5" barrel shoots well not only maximal weight boolits (720 gr. wadcutter) @ 800 fps at 100 yards, but does also very well at higher velocities, like a 550 gr. LBT @ 1,400-1,500 fps. All considered, I think that the heavier and longer than standard boolit I have in mind (a .475 420 gr.), wider meplat of a WFN and the low velocities I aim for (900 and 1,000 fps) fully justify the use of a 1:10" or 1:12" twist. The only negative I can foresee with fast spins like these is leading, if hard enough boolits are not used.

I think that if your purpose was to shoot maximally heavy boolits in your short 50-70 at low-medium velocities of 800-1,000 fps, if that was what you mostly shot in it, you would definitely need a 10-12" twist rate there too.

[dubber123]

If I get a chance, I will measure nose length but there is certainly no bulging of the case. The chambers on this F/A won't tolerate any bulges at all. Even the moderate roll crimp I use makes for very difficult chambering unless I bump them through a taper crimp die. Oddly enough, I have a .357 Mag F/A, and the chambers are not tight at all, totally opposite of what I was expecting.

The 50-70 was bought to hopefully replicate a mid range .500 Linebaugh, a 450 grain boolit at 950-1,000 fps. in a short, light gun. It does that perfectly, I just suspect it would do better at longer ranges with a bit faster twist. I was honestly hoping it would shoot in the 2-2.5" range at 50 yards when I bought it, and it does much better than that with several boolits. The excellent T/C sights and 1.5# trigger help a lot.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3023.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/dubber123/media/IMG_3023.jpg.html)

[480guy]

If I get a chance, I will measure nose length but there is certainly no bulging of the case. The chambers on this F/A won't tolerate any bulges at all. Even the moderate roll crimp I use makes for very difficult chambering unless I bump them through a taper crimp die. Oddly enough, I have a .357 Mag F/A, and the chambers are not tight at all, totally opposite of what I was expecting.

The 50-70 was bought to hopefully replicate a mid range .500 Linebaugh, a 450 grain boolit at 950-1,000 fps. in a short, light gun. It does that perfectly, I just suspect it would do better at longer ranges with a bit faster twist. I was honestly hoping it would shoot in the 2-2.5" range at 50 yards when I bought it, and it does much better than that with several boolits. The excellent T/C sights and 1.5# trigger help a lot.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3023.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/dubber123/media/IMG_3023.jpg.html)

Another beautiful gun! :) It would be perfect with a much faster twist rate, and I hope you don't mind my saying so.
.500 boolits in the 450-550 gr. range, with a pointed tip just like the one shown in your picture, are long range boolits par excellence, but they need a fast twist rate to be accurate at long distances.
I'll bring up the John Ross Edition S&W .500 mag once again, since it is the only handgun with a 1:10" twist rate I know a lot about, just to illustrate what a 5" barreled .500 caliber wheelgun with such a fast twist can do. By the way, the John Ross Edition S&W .500 is a non-ported, non-compensated revolver, unlike the regular S&W .500 series, which are all ported/compensated. It also has a tight (.0035”-.0045”) cylinder gap. As previously said, there is the 725 gr. boolit at 800 fps, 2-3" groups at 100 yards scoped and off sand bags (when these heavy wadcutters normally start wobbling around at just 30 yards from the muzzle of the regular production 4" barreled gun with the factory 1:18" twist rate at that velocity) and there are the 400 gr. boolits (short-shanked) at 2,000 fps. There is a recorded test done by Kent Lomont in front of witnesses who put, in fifty consecutive shots, fifty 450 grain long range boolits (50 out of 50) on a 55 gallon oil drum at 700 yards - the powder used in this case was 50 grains of H322 for 1,400 fps. The 1:10" twist shows no negative impact on lighter bullets, this gun can shoot 300 grain Hornady polymer-tipped spitzer bullets at 2100 FPS out of the 5" barrel with good accuracy. And as a last example, 550 gr. boolits loaded to 100% density with 4759 (29 grains) for 1,320 fps: Mr. Ross used these to routinely hit a junked refrigerator, two shots out of each cylinder of five, at 890 yards.

By the way, these are the specs for the JR Long Range boolits:
[I don't seem able to upload this image from this computer. I'll try from the other computer at the office later on today.]

I would assume the actual bore length in the .50-70 Contender is about 4 inches? What's your powder load do get your 450 gr. to 1,000 fps out of the short barrel?

[dubber123]

I usually shoot a WFN or LFN profile. I also have a little 390 grain wadcutter that shoots very well, I had a few LBT molds cut just for this gun. The pointed one in the pic however is the accuracy champ. It's a $16 LEE. Go figure :)

I would guess about 4" on actual barrel length. This one was a major pain to load for with the big case and lower pressure requirements along with the short barrel. I got Unique to work, but only right at the point it started acting spooky. The best powder ended up being Trailboss. Consistent velocities and no fillers needed. It's about the only use I have for that powder, but it works great in this one.

[44man]

I have always said a short barrel should have a faster twist then a longer barrel from loss of velocity.
I pulled my hair over just a 10" 30-30 TC. Then the 45-70 BFR in 10". I knew the problems and it was born out. I found 4759 was the powder, even in my 7R and 7BR. The powder is gone but I stocked up.
Case capacity V barrel length is real and if you can beat it you are a better man or the fairy is on your gun with the magic wand and pixie dust.
To cut a .500 S&W to 4" is ludicrous. So is the Ruger Alaskan. They are bear breath in your face guns.

[480guy]

I usually shoot a WFN or LFN profile. I also have a little 390 grain wadcutter that shoots very well, I had a few LBT molds cut just for this gun. The pointed one in the pic however is the accuracy champ. It's a $16 LEE. Go figure :)

I would guess about 4" on actual barrel length. This one was a major pain to load for with the big case and lower pressure requirements along with the short barrel. I got Unique to work, but only right at the point it started acting spooky. The best powder ended up being Trailboss. Consistent velocities and no fillers needed. It's about the only use I have for that powder, but it works great in this one.

I'm not surprised in the least, some Lee molds can really be very good, once you learn how to cast right out of them. There's a Lee .475 400 gr. at about the same price (it casts around 395 gr. with WW) which performs fabulously in the .480 with 21 gr. H110 for about 1,200 fps out of the 7.5" SRH tube.
I'm not surprised about Trailboss either, given the big case of the .50-70.. Do you load it at 100% density?

Here are the specs for the JR Long Range boolits, the 450 gr. and 550 gr. that did so well out of the 5" barrel .500 mag with 1:10" twist rate:

165367

[480guy]

I have always said a short barrel should have a faster twist then a longer barrel from loss of velocity.
I pulled my hair over just a 10" 30-30 TC. Then the 45-70 BFR in 10". I knew the problems and it was born out. I found 4759 was the powder, even in my 7R and 7BR. The powder is gone but I stocked up.
Case capacity V barrel length is real and if you can beat it you are a better man or the fairy is on your gun with the magic wand and pixie dust.
To cut a .500 S&W to 4" is ludicrous. So is the Ruger Alaskan. They are bear breath in your face guns.

4759 was THE powder also in the .500 mag, it's a shame it has been discontinued. By the way, the story I mentioned of John Ross routinely hitting a refrigerator at 890 yards wth 550 gr. boolits over 100% density loads of 4759 out of the 1:10" twist 5" barrel, he did it with open sights, from a sitting position with back rest, hitting the target about two shots per cylinder on average.
There were 500 guns made for John Ross by the S&W Performance Center, 250 in black, 250 in satin, and came with a PC lifetime warranty. I think there was a group buy on this forum at one point where you could buy them at a substantial discount for around $1,350 each, if memory serves well. If I could go back in time, I might, I say might, grab one.
You did really well to stock up on 4759, how much did you get?
Even more ludicrous when you consider that the bore in that S&W .500 is actually only 3" or so plus 1" compensator, and yet people buy a lot of them in that barrel length even though most are not likely to meet a wild brown in their lifetimes. Same goes for the Ruger Alaskan with its 2.5" barrel. People sometimes make uninformed choices. I didn't buy mine, got it very cheap, close to nothing, as part of a deal.
All considered, what you say makes a lot of sense, I should go for a 4.75" barrel length minimum in the .480 for my intended purposes.

[dubber123]

It's not 100% going by memory, (dangerous) I believe it only takes about 12 grains of Trailboss to get the 450's to 1,000 fps.

The .476 LEE you mention is one of the most consistently accurate boolits in my F/A, especially at plinker/midrange loads. I never had any luck with it in full power loadings.

[44man]

I have about 20# of 4759. I traded to friend some for Varget he found for me. He has the BFR 45-70 so I let him finagle 3# out of my stash.
I have the Lee 476-400 too and it shoots great from my BFR .475. We got it to shoot from the Freedom but have to watch to start the crimp right at the top of the groove or the nose will stick out a little. Must have good tension.

[44man]

After seeing the .475 perform on deer with no meat loss and about every shot an instant drop, I feel the .480 might be as great.
Ruger should put it in the Hunter model. 5 shot cylinder.

[480guy]

I have a question for you, 44man, in re: your .475L 420 gr. loads with HS-6. Do you find your best accuracy with magnum or non-magnum primers, and at what velocity/powder charge? Do you have any suggestions/pointers to give on HS-6 tailored to the .480 Ruger case with same weight WFN's out of a shorter, 1:10" twist 4.75" barrel? Really interested to hear your take on it.

[480guy]

Also, I know you have a preference for W296, over H110..how do you feel it differs from H110 in your .475L with heavy, 420 gr. boolits?
I have a feeling H110 might be a bit more forgiving than W296 when it comes to low end charges..
Again, really interested in your take on this.

[44man]

I only tried HS-6 with the Lee 400 and used 15 gr. It shot very good but I did not chrono it.
remember this was the .475 case. But it turns out to be a good powder so get your starting loads for the .480.
I use the fed 155 in the .475 since brass is large enough and they are more accurate. Do NOT use rifle primers. However I did not test standard primers with HS-6, mostly because I have almost none left.
Do NOT download H110, it is the same powder as 296.
The only reason I stay with 296 is long ago WW got a different burn rate batch then Hodgdon, other burn rates went to ammo makers since they can test each lot.
All of my guns shot more accurate with 296 except one, the RH preferred H110. At the time I DID find a difference but don't know for sure today since Hodgdon has both powders. Nobody can tell me if they are still different lots. H110 took 1/2 gr more but no matter what I tried I could not get it to shoot good from my SBH or 29's. I could not get 296 to shoot from the RH so I tested many times and never could explain it.
Only thing I can come up with is each brand has closer lot batches but between brands there must be a larger gap.
Like 2400 today, some say it is faster but I don't know since the small amount I have left is still Hercules. Did Alliant change it or are lots different?
Not only is powder hard to find but now I can't afford to buy what I don't know about.

[snowwolfe]

Also, I know you have a preference for W296, over H110..how do you feel it differs from H110 in your .475L with heavy, 420 gr. boolits?
I have a feeling H110 might be a bit more forgiving than W296 when it comes to low end charges..
Again, really interested in your take on this.

FYI, There is no difference between W296 and H110. They are both made by the same company and just go into different jugs.

[480guy]

I only tried HS-6 with the Lee 400 and used 15 gr. It shot very good but I did not chrono it.
remember this was the .475 case. But it turns out to be a good powder so get your starting loads for the .480.
I use the fed 155 in the .475 since brass is large enough and they are more accurate. Do NOT use rifle primers. However I did not test standard primers with HS-6, mostly because I have almost none left.
Do NOT download H110, it is the same powder as 296.
The only reason I stay with 296 is long ago WW got a different burn rate batch then Hodgdon, other burn rates went to ammo makers since they can test each lot.
All of my guns shot more accurate with 296 except one, the RH preferred H110. At the time I DID find a difference but don't know for sure today since Hodgdon has both powders. Nobody can tell me if they are still different lots. H110 took 1/2 gr more but no matter what I tried I could not get it to shoot good from my SBH or 29's. I could not get 296 to shoot from the RH so I tested many times and never could explain it.
Only thing I can come up with is each brand has closer lot batches but between brands there must be a larger gap.
Like 2400 today, some say it is faster but I don't know since the small amount I have left is still Hercules. Did Alliant change it or are lots different?
Not only is powder hard to find but now I can't afford to buy what I don't know about.

Thanks so much for your feedback on HS-6 and primers, W296 and H110, it is much appreciated!
I do not intend to download H110 in the least, however, there is just a bit of confusion in regard to what may represent an acceptable, safe starting load. Current Hodgdon published reload data for the LBT style 420 gr. gives 19 gr. H110 (34,200 PSI) as a starting load and 20 gr. H110 (38,700 PSI) as a max load. However, I've seen 18 gr. H110 claimed to be a good, safe starting load for this same boolit by various sources. For instance, John Taffin in his 6-page article "Reloading the .480 Ruger" in the September-October 2001 of American Handgunner (page 61) lists 18 gr. H110 as a good load for an LBT style 425 gr. boolit, categorizing it among the few with "the smallest extreme spread in muzzle velocity," even smaller spread than 19 gr. H110 with the same boolit, even though the latter is claimed to be more accurate at 25 yards out of Mr. Taffin's Ruger SRH with 9.5" barrel.
So for the purposes of this project stated in my first post, velocities attainable with H110 under a 420 gr. LBT boolit, adjusted for the 4.75" barrel and inclusive of the aforementioned low end loads that some might question, would be, approximately:
18 gr. H110 (about 29,700 PSI) 960 fps
18.5 gr. H110 (about 32,000 PSI) 985 fps
19 gr. H110 (34,200 PSI) 1,010 fps
Of course a tighter B/C gap will increase velocities along with bore pressures some, while the faster 1:10" twist will tend to decrease velocities a bit (and increase bore pressures). This of course is just theory, it remains to be seen how well the gun will perform in practical terms with all these variables that need to be taken into consideration. It might also be that H110 has changed a bit over the years, like 2400?
I may well be able to come up with a pretty good accuracy load at around 880-900 fps, out of the 1:10" twist, with HS-6 and the 420 gr. LBT.

[480guy]

FYI, There is no difference between W296 and H110. They are both made by the same company and just go into different jugs.

Some claim there are differences..perhaps this was true in the past and no longer applies now? If it's exactly the same powder just going into different jugs, of course, there should be no differences.

[44man]

Some claim there are differences..perhaps this was true in the past and no longer applies now? If it's exactly the same powder just going into different jugs, of course, there should be no differences.
THAT is what I don't know today since I have not bought any H110 for a long time. Only way to tell is to test back to back.
You can go to starting loads in the .480 with either powder, ONLY the .454 is a problem because of the primer used. I would not go below though.
Remember low SD's or extreme measurements of any kind do not reflect accuracy results. I never use a chronograph to look for numbers.
I never search for velocity, only those tiny groups at 50 yards and do not care how fast. Then I might check velocities to see what I wound up with. I still ignore all the funny numbers like SD's.

[snowwolfe]

Some claim there are differences..perhaps this was true in the past and no longer applies now? If it's exactly the same powder just going into different jugs, of course, there should be no differences.

It is exactly the same powder going into jugs with different labels. The only difference might be between different lots which is true of any smokeless powder.

[480guy]

THAT is what I don't know today since I have not bought any H110 for a long time. Only way to tell is to test back to back.
You can go to starting loads in the .480 with either powder, ONLY the .454 is a problem because of the primer used. I would not go below though.
Remember low SD's or extreme measurements of any kind do not reflect accuracy results. I never use a chronograph to look for numbers.
I never search for velocity, only those tiny groups at 50 yards and do not care how fast. Then I might check velocities to see what I wound up with. I still ignore all the funny numbers like SD's.

I believe your .475L BFR with 7.5" barrel, UD scope and .420 gr. WFN's @ 1,329 fps is an excellent weapon for hunting any game in North America, and also for great target practice, especially since you are capable of those tiny groups at 50 and 100 yards with a cartridge that features a Taylor KO factor of almost 38. That's remarkable accuracy, penetration and stopping power in a package that...
...HOWEVER, is NOT as PORTABLE and as SHOOTABLE as a weapon intended for personal defense against dangerous animals (while hiking and camping in the wilderness) needs to be.

For THAT, a smaller and lighter handgun is needed that you can wear on your belt and carry around all day without much discomfort (this is PORTABILITY - the reason, for instance, for a 4.75" barrel and for also considering a .480 mid-frame Ruger conversion);

a cartridge is needed that can be shot easily, on the spur of the moment without preparation and that doesn't deafen you if you are shooting it without wearing ear protection, or give you a disconcerting concussion from the blast, or produce such recoil as to incapacitate quick follow-up shots (like a 4" S&W .500 or 2.5" SRH Alaskan with near max loads would). Also a cartridge you can comfortably shoot A LOT from a variety of stances, positions, angles, grips trying to simulate possible real-life self-defense scenarios (that's real fun! :)) - this is SHOOTABILITY;

and, yet, we need a gun and cartridge capable of excellent penetration and stopping power (a .475 420 gr. boolit at 1,000 fps translates into a Taylor KO factor of 28.5. In North America, its penetration and stopping power at short distances might be marginal only for the salmon-fed, coastal grizzlies of Alaska, but, probably, not even then);

and, finally, we need a gun and cartridge capable of good accuracy at subsonic, low-recoil/low blast velocities...the more, the better.

HENCE, all this talk about faster twist rates, tighter B/C gaps, low end powder loads, etc. Half of the fun is in the planning!

So..I, too, don't care at all about velocity for its own sake, but need to take velocity into account because it is important for establishing reasonable penetration and stopping power within the limitations posed by a gun that also needs to be PORTABLE and SHOOTABLE in order to satisfy its intended purpose of personal protection while in the wilderness.

[480guy]

It is exactly the same powder going into jugs with different labels. The only difference might be between different lots which is true of any smokeless powder.

OK, thanks for your input. And, if I may ask, how do you know that? I'm not doubting what you say, just curious as to how you have arrived at your conclusion. I haven't used W296 in years, just H110. I know Hodgdon's published reloading data show the same loads/velocities for both.

[44man]

Penetration is a funny thing, I shot my .45 Colt, 320 gr at 1160 fps through a 16" tree, cut a 1" grapevine in half after exit and I could not find the boolit in the dirt.
The 420 from my .475 blew up 4 gallon jugs of water, split number 5 and went straight through 17 jugs and might be on the moon! :holysheep I hit a deer under the chin took out the spine, row of ribs under the spine, boolit went just below the backstraps and exited the ham. I lost no meat.
I don't think .480 penetration should be a problem.
Now I agree about a carry gun and you need something handy.
Now my BFR in .500 JRH gave me trouble on deer. The big 440 gr, WFN boolit just poked a hole and left no blood trails with deer going 100-120 yards so I cast half the nose softer. Turned it into the most destructive thing EVER. Can't stop the boolit but it has dropped in place 99% of deer but I have made mush out of a few. I believe it would fully penetrate a bear and leave a path of destruction behind. Someday I will gather up 20 jugs and see how far it will go.

[snowwolfe]

OK, thanks for your input. And, if I may ask, how do you know that? I'm not doubting what you say, just curious as to how you have arrived at your conclusion. I haven't used W296 in years, just H110. I know Hodgdon's published reloading data show the same loads/velocities for both.

I know because a few years ago called Hodgdon and asked them. Maybe the customer service person I talked to lied to me but I doubt it. It is a well known fact, just Google it.

However, on a different note I am beginning to like AA #9 more and more in the big bores.

[44man]

It IS the same powder off the same production line. But every batch is not the same. If Hodgdon bottles the WW batch for H110 today we are golden but what if they still have different specs?
I do not buy H110 at all because of the question. Loads in manuals are more in line with WW powders today but I still buy only 296. For me, it is proven. Money still goes to Hodgdon so what is the difference? Hodgdon is top dog now but when IMR was not a part, I could call and get good information. Now that Hodgdon has the IMR brand, I get no answers. Is there a difference between IMR 4350 and Hodgden 4350? Or any other IMR powder?
Proof comes from shooting.

[44man]

I have many AA powders and never got any to work. Darn waste of money. Will not buy anymore.

[480guy]

Penetration is a funny thing, I shot my .45 Colt, 320 gr at 1160 fps through a 16" tree, cut a 1" grapevine in half after exit and I could not find the boolit in the dirt.
The 420 from my .475 blew up 4 gallon jugs of water, split number 5 and went straight through 17 jugs and might be on the moon! :holysheep I hit a deer under the chin took out the spine, row of ribs under the spine, boolit went just below the backstraps and exited the ham. I lost no meat.
I don't think .480 penetration should be a problem.
Now I agree about a carry gun and you need something handy.
Now my BFR in .500 JRH gave me trouble on deer. The big 440 gr, WFN boolit just poked a hole and left no blood trails with deer going 100-120 yards so I cast half the nose softer. Turned it into the most destructive thing EVER. Can't stop the boolit but it has dropped in place 99% of deer but I have made mush out of a few. I believe it would fully penetrate a bear and leave a path of destruction behind. Someday I will gather up 20 jugs and see how far it will go.

.475L, .500L, .500 JRH...all wonderful cartridges and it's amazing what they can achieve with the right loads in the right guns!
BFR's...better than Rugers but not quite F/A's...excellent values nevertheless for the price! And I don't like that I have to leave one empty in the F/A. So, do you have a whole collection of BFR's?? :)
Even the "lowly" .45LC is very capable with the heavy boolits, even though not quite a .480.
I feel the .480 is the perfect caliber for this project. When I want the penetration/stopping power of a 420 gr. WFN at 1,000 fps in a revolver as compact as possible, a handy revolver, an adequately shootable revolver when the task at hand is self-protection in the wilderness, it's hard to beat the .480.
I think H110/W296 is the most efficient powder for this purpose, highest velocities at the lowest cost pressure-wise, when compared to other powders, and hopefully good accuracy too with the faster twist and big boolit at lower velocities. Once I get the gun modified, I intend to find the most accurate load at around 1,000 fps and then practice with that load ALL the time, ONE single load ONLY for everything, everywhere. There are other faster powders that would work for the short 4.75" barrel, like HS-6 for instance, but H110/W296 is without doubt the most efficient of them all in terms of highest velocities achievable at the lowest pressures.
I've seen a couple of New Vaquero and Flat Top .480 conversions by Jack Huntington with modified grip frame that are truly works of art..not cheap though, and obviously not DA's. But how beautiful..and the exact type of compactness I have in mind for this task.
How did you cast half the nose softer? I bet you shoot your .500 JRH 440 gr. WFN boolit at around the same velocity as your .475 420 gr. WFN with less recoil and less report. Is it a 1:15" twist rate as well? How does it compare as far as accuracy?

[480guy]

I know because a few years ago called Hodgdon and asked them. Maybe the customer service person I talked to lied to me but I doubt it. It is a well known fact, just Google it.

However, on a different note I am beginning to like AA #9 more and more in the big bores.

Never tried AA #9 or any of the AA powders. AA #9 seems to have a burn rate right in between Blue Dot and 2400..what's good about it and how does it perform for you under heavy-for-caliber boolits? Have you tried HS-6 with the heavies? I'd like to get some feedback from those who have shot HS-6 in .480 cases under 420-440 gr. boolits.

[480guy]

I have many AA powders and never got any to work. Darn waste of money. Will not buy anymore.

Thanks for your feedback on these powders.

[44man]

I have 3 BFR's, .475, 45-70 and .500 JRH. Most accurate guns ever made right out of box. I do the triggers and put in 26# Wolff over power hammer springs. Triggers run from 1-1/2# to 19 ounces.
All dimensions are perfect.
Now I heard MR changed barrel makers and twist rates have changed so before ever buying another I would need to know what the twist is. They had it right before. The twist was the highlight of the accuracy and I have shot many 100 yard groups under 1" down to a few at 1/2".
I hit a 6" rifle swinger 4 out of 5 times at 400 yards with the .475, first shot a sighter. All the rifle guys came to see what the heck I was shooting. I gave Pete my gun, told him where to hold and he got 3 hits, we shot Creedmore off the bench top.
This is the boolit I designed, made my own molds for all the guns. 165770165771 This is my .500 JRH boolit. Notice all the GG's and the thin base band, it works! 165772 .500 did this at 100 yards, first shot 1/2" off, got it the second shot. Ultra Dot off bags.
I can't explain why my boolits work so good, never drew one on paper, just cut the cherries by eye on the lathe. I use just WD, WW lead.

[44man]

Now what they do. .475 full hard boolit at 76 yards on deer. 165773165774 Exit holes. The ham exit is the one I hit under the chin, facing me. 165776 Entrance with .500 JRH and half the nose soft. Never hit bone with this thing! Destroyed my burger meat in the neck too. The nose alloy is 3# of pure and 1# of WW.
Guys want a soft HP, can you imagine?
I think the .480 would meet all hunting needs so just find the accuracy since you must hit right.
I continue to learn and with over 180 revolver deer kills, I am not done yet.
I can't stress accuracy enough, then work the boolit to perform. Your boolit is the key.
Even the .44 with a full hard, heavy boolit is nasty. 165777
I never figured why a guy wants a soft HP for deer and thinks it will work on a charging bear? Or a bone hit on a buf.
Cast can do anything, just don't get carried away.
If you think a revolver takes a back seat to a rifle, take a look.

[snowwolfe]

Never tried AA #9 or any of the AA powders. AA #9 seems to have a burn rate right in between Blue Dot and 2400..what's good about it and how does it perform for you under heavy-for-caliber boolits? Have you tried HS-6 with the heavies? I'd like to get some feedback from those who have shot HS-6 in .480 cases under 420-440 gr. boolits.

Never tired HS-6. I like AA # 9 because it burns cleaner than 296/110. As far as accuracy I can not tell any difference between AA and 296/110. I am not a good enough revolver shooter to shoot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards like 44man.

[dubber123]

Never tired HS-6. I like AA # 9 because it burns cleaner than 296/110. As far as accuracy I can not tell any difference between AA and 296/110. I am not a good enough revolver shooter to shoot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards like 44man.

Me either! :) I have on occasion snuck up on that 1/2" number at 25 yards, hit the 1" at 50 yards a few times, all iron sights, but I sure can't lay claim to doing it on a regular basis. My accuracy standards are not quite as high as Jims, because I know I will likely never reach that level. I can try all I want, but 2" at 50 yards is about the best I can hope for, my 2 F/A's and 1 of my S&W's can keep it at 1.5" on a good day. I am the variable, and wow, I do vary ;)

[44man]

I have gone to pot myself. Age is the worst. Eyes next. Loss of strength is a hard thing.
Been changing the timing belt on my 4 Runner and everything hurts. WOW, don't do this at home! It looks easy in the book but when only a finger can find a big bolt where no tool can reach and only an inch to move it when you get it on a bolt. Took half a day to get the air cond compressor moved and the bracket off. Another half day to put it back.
Book says just a little over 4 hours for the job, took 2 hours to get the spark plugs out. Stuff in the way that takes more hours.
Shooting is so much easier. Not fun under a truck and can't find a tool so have to get out from under. Need to make special tools too. Stinking lower belt pulley would not move, had to make a puller. Crankshaft damper pulley could not be pulled with 5 different pullers so I found one on Evilbay, from England, Polish on the box, made in Chinah, (polish) and it worked like a charm. Grips the belt grooves.
Anyone needs it, pay postage both ways.

[480guy]

GREAT info and pics...THANKS! :) Great boolits, great molds, great shooting!
Why the short nose/long shank on the .475 420 gr.? Balance? It works, obviously, and that's all that counts.
Just read the thread on Gary Reeder customs..and I must agree, it's hard to justify the money for custom. If it only were that simple to just purchase a good barrel with the desired twist rate and have it screwed on your gun by your local gunsmith, cheaply, effectively..could use the SRH Alaskan with a new 4.75" 1:10" twist rate barrel on it and be done. Or can it actually be done that easily?
Really curious about your .45-70 BFR. What do you shoot in it and does it have a fast twist, and isn't it too much case capacity for the short barrel?
I hope MR hasn't messed up with the new twist rates..it would be a shame if they now have the 1:18" twist that is the prevailing industry standard for the big bores. Down the drain would go accuracy, if that were the case, you'd need to increase velocities 250 fps or so to keep at your accuracy level.
I hear you..I too work on my own vehicles whenever possible..I have witnessed the sloppiness of some so-called professional mechanics, so I like to be in control of what gets done in my cars and how, but sometimes, as you say, it's a pain.. Don't focus too much on age, don't affirm it...believe me, been there, done that..it doesn't help.

[480guy]

Never tired HS-6. I like AA # 9 because it burns cleaner than 296/110. As far as accuracy I can not tell any difference between AA and 296/110. I am not a good enough revolver shooter to shoot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards like 44man.

I don't mind if 296/110 is a little dirtier, I like the fact I get the velocity needed for accuracy and power at lower pressures than with a faster powder...faster burning rate is fine up to a point with heavier boolits, after which pressures increase quickly. HS-6 I'd like to learn more about because I heard it's very good accuracy-wise in the .480/.475 with heavy-for-caliber boolits at medium range velocities.

[44man]

My 420 gr will fit the Freedom my friend has. It was a consideration when I made it and it works.
Dirty powder is a hoax, does not matter. Use what works.
480guy, you will be a benefit to this site and just a few posts shows you will add so much.
My BFR in .475 and .500 has 1 in 15" and the 45-70 has 1 in 14" Crazy but works. I do not want slower. Even at those rates it takes near max to work. How to get a 1 in 18" to work? How about the Freedom .454 at 1 in 24"? The BFR had 1 in 16". Twist is so important but is neglected so much, it drives me nuts.

[480guy]

My 420 gr will fit the Freedom my friend has. It was a consideration when I made it and it works. Dirty powder is a hoax, does not matter. Use what works. 480guy, you will be a benefit to this site and just a few posts shows you will add so much. My BFR in .475 and .500 has 1 in 15" and the 45-70 has 1 in 14" Crazy but works. I do not want slower. Even at those rates it takes near max to work. How to get a 1 in 18" to work? How about the Freedom .454 at 1 in 24"? The BFR had 1 in 16". Twist is so important but is neglected so much, it drives me nuts. Thanks..and also for sharing your knowledge here. It's all been very helpful! :) I'll post progress on this project as soon as I start getting things done. It may take a while, though. I've also posted a new thread in the Gunsmithing/Barrel Works section seeking info/suggestions on revolver barrel replacement. I have very little experience in this regard and look forward to all the advice I can get. Hopefully, someone with expertise on this sort of thing will soon chime in.

[44man]

I found the larger calibers are so much easier to get to shoot good. My problem child is the .357 and .38's. Seems as if there is less difference with case tension when brass is larger.
The .357 I got to work was my old 27 and I regret ever selling it.
Then the Ruger .357 max, some kind of magic with that thing. I got my new max and took it to Youngstown IHMSA to just get sight settings with 200 gr bullets. I shot 39 out of 40 with no sight settings.
Then I heard the DW was the gun to have so I traded, big mistake, it was the bad time and the barrel and shroud were so crooked in the frame, nothing could be done. I would set the gap and could not rotate the cylinder, front was not faced square. Met a guy trying to sight a new DW .44 and his rear sight was about to fall off to the right. I looked over the gun and the barrel was so far to the left he would need a 6" extension on the sight. That was the time when DW was bought out. Early guns were super.
I had the .44 SBH and won most every shoot, took Ohio state with 79 out of 80. I still have it with well over 81,000 rounds with no wear.
Back at the start I shot poor with it, found the 4227's everyone used was bad, changed velocity with just some gun heat. I went to 296 and then figured out case tension problems, made a tool to measure seating pressures to sort. Scores went out of sight and they hated to see me come to a shoot. On to primer testing to find the .44 loves the Fed 150 with 296. I cut groups by 2/3's.
I still primer test with every gun and as cases get larger like the .475, the Fed 155 is more accurate. I would expect it to be best in the .480. Case volume is where primers need changed.
I made the 330 gr boolit for my .44 and use an Ultra Dot for deer and wanted to see the drop at 200 yards with my 75 yard setting. I shot 3 shots and found this.165955 1-5/16" at 200, drop was 35". No I would not shoot a deer that far because even loss of energy at 100 is not good.
I had so much trouble with case tension at the start I had BR collar dies made for the .44. They worked but are a big pain so I tested dies to find Hornady New Dimension dies did as good. They are all I buy now. Yes, die choice can make or break what you do.
Then to lube tests and you will never believe what a lube change can do. Felix and MML proved best. never use a hard or slippery lube. Ben's Red does not work in a revolver but is great in a rifle. Slippery lube will break tension too soon. strong primers will move a boolit out before ignition. I will not get into the stupid .454 with SR primers. Cut down .460 brass and use a Fed 155 and find piece.
It has been an adventure where I can tell you what primer you use when I shoot your loads. I have been booted from many sites because nobody can make a revolver shoot like that. I am lying, can't be done!

[480guy]

I found the larger calibers are so much easier to get to shoot good. My problem child is the .357 and .38's. Seems as if there is less difference with case tension when brass is larger.
The .357 I got to work was my old 27 and I regret ever selling it.
Then the Ruger .357 max, some kind of magic with that thing. I got my new max and took it to Youngstown IHMSA to just get sight settings with 200 gr bullets. I shot 39 out of 40 with no sight settings.
Then I heard the DW was the gun to have so I traded, big mistake, it was the bad time and the barrel and shroud were so crooked in the frame, nothing could be done. I would set the gap and could not rotate the cylinder, front was not faced square. Met a guy trying to sight a new DW .44 and his rear sight was about to fall off to the right. I looked over the gun and the barrel was so far to the left he would need a 6" extension on the sight. That was the time when DW was bought out. Early guns were super.
I had the .44 SBH and won most every shoot, took Ohio state with 79 out of 80. I still have it with well over 81,000 rounds with no wear.
Back at the start I shot poor with it, found the 4227's everyone used was bad, changed velocity with just some gun heat. I went to 296 and then figured out case tension problems, made a tool to measure seating pressures to sort. Scores went out of sight and they hated to see me come to a shoot. On to primer testing to find the .44 loves the Fed 150 with 296. I cut groups by 2/3's.
I still primer test with every gun and as cases get larger like the .475, the Fed 155 is more accurate. I would expect it to be best in the .480. Case volume is where primers need changed.
I made the 330 gr boolit for my .44 and use an Ultra Dot for deer and wanted to see the drop at 200 yards with my 75 yard setting. I shot 3 shots and found this.165955 1-5/16" at 200, drop was 35". No I would not shoot a deer that far because even loss of energy at 100 is not good.
I had so much trouble with case tension at the start I had BR collar dies made for the .44. They worked but are a big pain so I tested dies to find Hornady New Dimension dies did as good. They are all I buy now. Yes, die choice can make or break what you do.
Then to lube tests and you will never believe what a lube change can do. Felix and MML proved best. never use a hard or slippery lube. Ben's Red does not work in a revolver but is great in a rifle. Slippery lube will break tension too soon. strong primers will move a boolit out before ignition. I will not get into the stupid .454 with SR primers. Cut down .460 brass and use a Fed 155 and find piece.
It has been an adventure where I can tell you what primer you use when I shoot your loads. I have been booted from many sites because nobody can make a revolver shoot like that. I am lying, can't be done!

Thanks for the additional valuable input here. Incredible shooting skills you have, but you must have heard this quite a lot all your life, I bet.
I'll test Fed 155's, thanks, to see if they make a difference. I also have Hornady dies. Thanks for the suggestion regarding lube, I'll keep Felix and MML in mind. Good observation about SR primers in the .454. Also absurd in the .454 is the industry standard 1:24" twist rate..I don't know how someone would want to shoot .45LC's in their .454 guns..and yet many who buy a .454 (with 1:24" twist) say their choice is also motivated by the option given by the .454 to shoot .45's in it for target practice.
I noticed you wrote above you found excellent accuracy in the 44 magnum with (non-magnum) Fed 150 primers. I am curious to know if you have ever experimented with non-magnum primers in the big bores and what were the (most encouraging) results.

[44man]

Yes, I tested 150's in the big bores and ignition was fine but the 155 is more accurate. Other primers like CCI also worked fine and the .45 Colt is sort of border line between standard and mags. I found the WW primer works mighty well in it too with 296.
Only the .44 does not like a mag so since 1980, I have only used the 150 Fed.
My feeling is a high pressure primer in the .44 will move a boolit and that increases air space different for each shot, not good with 296/H110.
As you can see with my picture, my loads look like a snake that swallowed a cow and is why I use harder lead. My goal was to make cast work like jacketed and I have out shot them, same with ogive shape so a straight start is made at the cone.
The .454 gave us a lot of trouble with starting loads, powder would not burn at all and a boolit and powder would need pounded out. The SR primer has pressure and will push everything out without enough fire to ignite 296. I found max loads only were safe. I opened primer pockets but that is very hard so I cut down .460 brass and used the 155 primer but even the 150 would ignite all charges, just not as accurate. Dick designed the pockets for duplex and triplex loads, staring with Bullseye at the primer, for some reason it stuck.
Then a friend bought factory cast loads for the .454 and I seen the strongest full profile crimps. I held one up and asked him "why so much crimp?" It took 1 shot to tie up a Freedom and 2 to lock a SRH, boolits pulled from recoil but none of my loads moved. Not good in bear country so carry a lot of pepper with you. Remove the front sight too! :bigsmyl2: Crimp will not be better then case tension and has no affect at all on accuracy so if you are in a danger zone, make sure your loads work.
Ever try to remove a Freedom cylinder when boolits pull? I carry a brass rod, hammer and dowels in my shooting bag for when others mess up. Only way to open a Freedom is to tap the boolits back in with a dowel. I sure do not like to tap on loads with any powder.
Another gun to use care with is the .500 S&W. Some brass is still found with LP pockets but they changed to LR along the line-NOT needed by the way. If you stuff a LR primer in older brass you can get a slam fire at the recoil plate, gun is then GONE!
The S&W can double because the cylinder stop spring is too weak and it will unlock and rotate backwards to ignite a live round if one is there. A friend took out the over head lights in the NRA range. I can fix. Hammers bounce from internal primer pressure against the pin, even a SA shows it. That will set off a round if the cylinder turns.
Primers need struck with a certain force for accuracy so to weaken a hammer spring is the worst you can do. Never unscrew the strain screw on a Smith and Ruger springs take a set. I changed hammer springs when accuracy dropped off. I bought Ruger springs by the dozen. I went to Wolff springs. Beware of a lighter spring kit. Only the trigger spring will be accepted here.
One other thing about the hammer springs, Most factory are 23# but 26# is better and any round that uses a LR primer needs 28#.
My 45-70 BFR uses the fed 155 but if you buy a .450 Marlin cylinder and use rifle primers, you need a stronger spring. The stronger spring will work with the 45-70 cylinder too.
Yes, most with accuracy problems have fooled with springs.

[480guy]

Yes, I tested 150's in the big bores and ignition was fine but the 155 is more accurate. Other primers like CCI also worked fine and the .45 Colt is sort of border line between standard and mags. I found the WW primer works mighty well in it too with 296. Only the .44 does not like a mag so since 1980, I have only used the 150 Fed. My feeling is a high pressure primer in the .44 will move a boolit and that increases air space different for each shot, not good with 296/H110. As you can see with my picture, my loads look like a snake that swallowed a cow and is why I use harder lead. My goal was to make cast work like jacketed and I have out shot them, same with ogive shape so a straight start is made at the cone. The .454 gave us a lot of trouble with starting loads, powder would not burn at all and a boolit and powder would need pounded out. The SR primer has pressure and will push everything out without enough fire to ignite 296. I found max loads only were safe. I opened primer pockets but that is very hard so I cut down .460 brass and used the 155 primer but even the 150 would ignite all charges, just not as accurate. Dick designed the pockets for duplex and triplex loads, staring with Bullseye at the primer, for some reason it stuck. Then a friend bought factory cast loads for the .454 and I seen the strongest full profile crimps. I held one up and asked him "why so much crimp?" It took 1 shot to tie up a Freedom and 2 to lock a SRH, boolits pulled from recoil but none of my loads moved. Not good in bear country so carry a lot of pepper with you. Remove the front sight too! :bigsmyl2: Crimp will not be better then case tension and has no affect at all on accuracy so if you are in a danger zone, make sure your loads work. Ever try to remove a Freedom cylinder when boolits pull? I carry a brass rod, hammer and dowels in my shooting bag for when others mess up. Only way to open a Freedom is to tap the boolits back in with a dowel. I sure do not like to tap on loads with any powder. Another gun to use care with is the .500 S&W. Some brass is still found with LP pockets but they changed to LR along the line-NOT needed by the way. If you stuff a LR primer in older brass you can get a slam fire at the recoil plate, gun is then GONE! The S&W can double because the cylinder stop spring is too weak and it will unlock and rotate backwards to ignite a live round if one is there. A friend took out the over head lights in the NRA range. I can fix. Hammers bounce from internal primer pressure against the pin, even a SA shows it. That will set off a round if the cylinder turns. Primers need struck with a certain force for accuracy so to weaken a hammer spring is the worst you can do. Never unscrew the strain screw on a Smith and Ruger springs take a set. I changed hammer springs when accuracy dropped off. I bought Ruger springs by the dozen. I went to Wolff springs. Beware of a lighter spring kit. Only the trigger spring will be accepted here. One other thing about the hammer springs, Most factory are 23# but 26# is better and any round that uses a LR primer needs 28#. My 45-70 BFR uses the fed 155 but if you buy a .450 Marlin cylinder and use rifle primers, you need a stronger spring. The stronger spring will work with the 45-70 cylinder too. Yes, most with accuracy problems have fooled with springs.

Thanks, good to know all that. Again, you are making this very valuable with all the good advice you are constantly pouring in..very good thinking and feedback about hammer springs and trigger springs, too.
By "starting with Bullsey at the primer," do you mean more than one powder in the same case, a faster one at the bottom to insure proper ignition of the slower powder on top? If so, that's totally new to me, and seems pretty risky, isn't it? am I reading it right?
LOL Beware of the grizzly bear who runs after you brandishing your own gun in his paw! :bigsmyl2: What an inspiring picture to cherish in one's mind in order to ensure proper case tension while working at the press!
I'm well aware of the issue with old .500 mag brass with LP pockets. Aside from this, there were also several instances of double tapping due to the revolver recoiling hard and compressing the flesh of the shooter's hand, causing the trigger to be temporarily released, and then bouncing back while the trigger finger still remained squeezed in the same position, which, combined with the upward movement of the gun, would cause the cylinder to rotate and the next round being fired. This resulted in many bullets being fired in the air and sometimes even worse. If I remember correctly, in one of these instances a woman shot herself fatally in the head. I do not recall if some modifications were done to the gun by S&W to minimize the chances of this occurring again. I remember, though, there were a few who tried to sue S&W, to no avail.
Do you hunt with your .45-70 or just use it for precision shooting? How heavy are your .45-70 boolits, and what powder in those cavernous cases? 4759 with fillers, generous amounts of Trail Boss, or? I have no idea how to load the big case for the short 10" barrel, even though I suspect the 1:14" twist rate of the BFR must really help a whole lot..

[44man]

Yes, dick used a stack of powder, starting with Bullseye for ignition to light the slow powders. The idea was the SR primer could take the pressures but I have taken the .454 to well over 50,000# with the Fed 155. No flat primers.
That is 100% wrong about the S&W, It is the springs, there is no way to double with your finger. The cylinder turns BACKWARDS, not to the next shot. Safe thing is to load 5 only or have fired brass at the backside. We took videos that show it happen. Magic marker on the cylinder going the wrong way.
S&W DID come out with a better spring after we told them the truth.
Go back in time to some 29's in .44 mag. Next shot could be a "click." Cylinder turned back to a fired round and the next was also fired.
it is not every gun either, some shoot forever without the problem.
It is tracked to inertia on the cylinder stop from recoil. The spring has to be strong enough to resist inertia. The hammer spring might enter into it because S&W wants the best trigger pull so a hammer can bounce back more.
The old saw that was pushed about "shooter error" is 100% wrong. It is a ten cent spring!
I never had a better spring for the 29 so I put a lock tumbler spring inside the original to make it stronger, it worked. It would mean a few more ounces added to the DA pull is all.
I know S&W's and Rugers inside out.
Ruger's and BFR's need longer transfer bars for a light trigger so I made my own. If a trigger kicks your finger the bar can drop off the pin and fail to fire of nick it for a hang fire.
Here is the SBH with my long transfer bar. I have a 1-1/2# trigger.166145
My BFR in 45-70 has a 19 oz trigger. Some bars are OK but some are too short. Take a thick hunk of tool steel, hacksaw and files to make one, then harden and temper.
I wonder if anyone has a better Ruger trigger? I talked to Brownel's about it and they offer one but it is super expensive and I don't know if it is longer. They must be fit to each gun.

[snowwolfe]

Yes, dick used a stack of powder, starting with Bullseye for ignition to light the slow powders. The idea was the SR primer could take the pressures but I have taken the .454 to well over 50,000# with the Fed 155. No flat primers.


How were you able to measure the "over 50,000"?

[480guy]

Yes, dick used a stack of powder, starting with Bullseye for ignition to light the slow powders. The idea was the SR primer could take the pressures but I have taken the .454 to well over 50,000# with the Fed 155. No flat primers.
That is 100% wrong about the S&W, It is the springs, there is no way to double with your finger. The cylinder turns BACKWARDS, not to the next shot. Safe thing is to load 5 only or have fired brass at the backside. We took videos that show it happen. Magic marker on the cylinder going the wrong way.
S&W DID come out with a better spring after we told them the truth.
Go back in time to some 29's in .44 mag. Next shot could be a "click." Cylinder turned back to a fired round and the next was also fired.
it is not every gun either, some shoot forever without the problem.
It is tracked to inertia on the cylinder stop from recoil. The spring has to be strong enough to resist inertia. The hammer spring might enter into it because S&W wants the best trigger pull so a hammer can bounce back more.
The old saw that was pushed about "shooter error" is 100% wrong. It is a ten cent spring!
I never had a better spring for the 29 so I put a lock tumbler spring inside the original to make it stronger, it worked. It would mean a few more ounces added to the DA pull is all.
I know S&W's and Rugers inside out.
Ruger's and BFR's need longer transfer bars for a light trigger so I made my own. If a trigger kicks your finger the bar can drop off the pin and fail to fire of nick it for a hang fire.
Here is the SBH with my long transfer bar. I have a 1-1/2# trigger.166145
My BFR in 45-70 has a 19 oz trigger. Some bars are OK but some are too short. Take a thick hunk of tool steel, hacksaw and files to make one, then harden and temper.
I wonder if anyone has a better Ruger trigger? I talked to Brownel's about it and they offer one but it is super expensive and I don't know if it is longer. They must be fit to each gun.

So Mr. Casull went so far as TRIPLE stacking the powders?
Here http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/09/13/500-sw-double-taps/
is a link to a slow motion video made by S&W to document how the type of double tap (done with the trigger finger) I described in my previous post takes place. The instances you described are also definitely occurring, where the cylinder unlocks and spins backwards with the possibility of firing a round if a live round is present. The latter are talked about as well in various forums, like here: http://www.smithandwessonforums.com/forum/s-w-gunsmithing/8309-what-would-cause-500-double.html.

[44man]

Well the friend that had a double was very experienced with heavy recoil and was even more crazy then me.
He is Max Prasac that wrote Big Bore Handguns, works at NRA and I can tell you he can SHOOT. We did extensive tests and took many videos. We contacted S&W and was given the "shooter error" thing too. He was sent the gun to test with an option to buy but returned it.
Notice the time of doubling, not possible with a finger. You will NEVER pull again DA that fast. The double is even before recoil is at max. Great gun I could fix.
S&W has different springs now with a selection of cylinder stop springs. Since not all guns did it, you can't blame a finger. The gun does not go forward in recoil to slam your finger into the trigger. Your finger will not go ahead to reset it either.

[480guy]

Well the friend that had a double was very experienced with heavy recoil and was even more crazy then me.
He is Max Prasac that wrote Big Bore Handguns, works at NRA and I can tell you he can SHOOT. We did extensive tests and took many videos. We contacted S&W and was given the "shooter error" thing too. He was sent the gun to test with an option to buy but returned it.
Notice the time of doubling, not possible with a finger. You will NEVER pull again DA that fast. The double is even before recoil is at max. Great gun I could fix.
S&W has different springs now with a selection of cylinder stop springs. Since not all guns did it, you can't blame a finger. The gun does not go forward in recoil to slam your finger into the trigger. Your finger will not go ahead to reset it either.

It is easy to establish which: if the double happens ON THE FIRST SHOT ONLY with a fully loaded cylinder AND the rightward of the two spent rounds is aligned with barrel (proof that cylinder has turned backwards; pulling the trigger again will result in a click, with hammer falling on an empty case), you have the scenario you and Max tested and took videos of;
if the double tap happens ON ANY SHOT (any cylinder chamber) AND pulling the trigger again, AFTER the double tap has occurred, fires a live round (unless all cartridges in the cylinder were already fired), you have the other scenario with cylinder that has turned clockwise and the next round being fired within a fraction of a second due to DA having been worked, inadvertently, under heavy recoil.
I have seen videos that seem to confirm this last scenario, with a definitely longer interlude between the two shots and with the second shot being fired upward in the air AFTER recoil maxed. Based on the reports published, second scenario did not happen routinely for each shooter and gun, but only occasionally, even though the same cartridge and gun were fired routinely by gun's owner.
It makes it conceivable that the DA can happen to be worked unintentionally by gun first recoiling hard against hand (with trigger moving backwards away from finger) and then bouncing off it with trigger now pressing against trigger finger while the latter still remains squeezed, with hand trying to hold the gun as tight as possible under heavy recoil.
I admit it has never happened to me personally either way, so I don't have first hand experience of it and cannot be sure if the facts were reported accurately.

EDIT 4/16: Description of second scenario corrected for clarity.

[44man]

I suppose it could happen. There is one 1911 that a friend doubles every time with but nobody else can. It HAS to be a double trigger pull.
The time difference you mention is the giveaway.

[apen]

Some claim there are differences..perhaps this was true in the past and no longer applies now? If it's exactly the same powder just going into different jugs, of course, there should be no differences.

The reloading manuals I have are a little dated and do show slight differences, but when you go to the hodgdon site, it looks like they are the same166357

[480guy]

I suppose it could happen. There is one 1911 that a friend doubles every time with but nobody else can. It HAS to be a double trigger pull.
The time difference you mention is the giveaway.

I just corrected the description of second scenario for clarity..it was quite a mess! Too much work, too little sleep..:holysheep
Sure, but not only the time difference is the giveaway.
The first scenario can only happen on the first shot and pulling the trigger again after the double must result in a click.
The second scenario can happen on any shot (first or subsequent ones) and pulling the trigger again after the double must result in a live round being fired.
These are even more clear cut giveaways to tell without doubt what is taking place.
Yes, it is a double trigger pull, but not voluntary..it is caused by the gun moving back and forth in the shooter's hands under very heavy recoil against the trigger finger, which remains more or less still (the shooter intends to fire one shot only and believes he is pulling the trigger only once).

[480guy]

The reloading manuals I have are a little dated and do show slight differences, but when you go to the hodgdon site, it looks like they are the same166357

So, it must be the same powder..