Original military 9mm Parabellum Bullet

[GWM]

In the latest Handloader issue #301 there is an article about loading for the Luger pistol.
It is stated that the original bullet was a 124gn truncated cone, and that the Ideal 356402 boolit is based closely upon it.
Allegedly it was produced into the beginning of WWI for the German military and into the 1930's for civilian sales in the US.
It would be of interest to be able to compare the "original" to the Ideal adaption for a cast boolit.

Does anyone know of an actual picture of this original military 9mm Parabellum bullet?

[tazman]

This link has some information and pictures that may help you.
http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=introduction-to-9mm-luger-cartridges

[GWM]

Thanks, I have seen that one. But unfortunately it is of no help. I haven't yet seen a picture anywhere of the bullet discussed. But it shouldn't be all impossible if it was marketed even into the 30's?

[Screwbolts]

tazman: thank you for the link, I was impressed with the cutaway photo of what appears to be an original 9mm Bullet of truncated cone style and cartridge as loaded in the year of 1902. I though that PDF file would answere the OP question perfectly as it appears to be displaying a cut away photo of one of the original cartridges.

OP: did you ask the author of the fine reference article what his definition of, and I quote "based closely upon it" is? With out having a firm definition of " based closely upon it" you may never find what you are looking for.

Ken

[GWM]

I was impressed with the cutaway photo of what appears to be an original 9mm Bullet of truncated cone style and cartridge as loaded in the year of 1902.

Thank you for your input Ken. "Figure 1 illustrates a sectioned 9mm Glisenti showing the wad on top of the powder to fill the case." I am sorry that I am so picky that I would like to see the actual german 9mm Parabellum bullet.

[Artful]

It's tough to beat the link already provided
http://cartridgecollectors.org/documents/Introduction-to-9mm-Luger-Cartridges.pdf

Naval issue 9mm from WW1
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g272/Lew14733/S18ctg_zps45c0239e.jpg

1917 ammo
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/zerleger/Glisenti3-1.jpg (http://s96.photobucket.com/user/zerleger/media/Glisenti3-1.jpg.html)

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9174 - 1912 9mm
http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af150/archmoco/9mm/9mm2.jpg
http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af150/archmoco/9mm/9mm.jpg

[tazman]

With that much of the shoulder of the bullet showing outside the case, there will be a lot of modern guns that cartridge won't chamber in. They won't have a deep enough throat/freebore.

[Artful]

Remember the only handguns that were really active were the P08 Luger
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/30/c8/b6/30c8b6a85d144e6f631681906ac5260d.jpg
and
Mauser C96
http://40.media.tumblr.com/bd5cc2f2e93ee5605cbbb616ac02274b/tumblr_mp2c8dfRts1s57vgxo2_r1_1280.jpg

[tazman]

While he didn't come out and say it, I thought the OP was thinking of replicating the original load for use in a modern pistol. I could very well be wrong about that.

[GWM]

It's tough to beat the link already provided
http://cartridgecollectors.org/documents/Introduction-to-9mm-Luger-Cartridges.pdf

Naval issue 9mm from WW1
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g272/Lew14733/S18ctg_zps45c0239e.jpg



Thanks! I still can't see it thru that link but "Naval issue 9mm from WW1" sounds right.

Tazman:
I am looking for "the original" bullet to fit my DWM P.08 Luger, but as a cast version. It is a bit picky with what I have tried so far, and it's part history too.
But I would think that bullet would work in my SIG P226 too, it has a very generous throat.

[OptimusPanda]

The original loading of a 124tc bullet is what made me go looking for one. I ended up with the NOE cause I needed it to drop .358". It shoots pretty well.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have a Bannerman reprint manual for the Luger that shows the same pic as shown in post #8 with the truncated nose bullets, so apparently they were used as well as the round noses. The Lyman 402 is similar but not the same. I use the RCBS truncated cone design and it works well and the Lyman 358242 RN. LLS

[Screwbolts]

GWM,
Yyou are apsolutly correct, I was wrong, and I read it to fast. I do still like that photo and with rereading the written word from you and the article, I know I was mistaken, I thought I was looking at air space above the powder.

Good luck on your endever and I do look forward to seeing your findings at the end of your search.

Ken

[Bullwolf]

Here's 3 separate old factory 9mm TC examples from my cartridge collection. Each one slightly different than the other. The one on the far right is actually a TC hollow point, and the one at the far left is more of a Round Flat Nose design.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=122297&d=1416450799

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=122296&d=1416450784


The OAL on the 9mm round with the case cannelure is 1.150

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=122292&d=1416447458



- Bullwolf

[Bullwolf]

While not the original 9mm Luger boolit, I've had good results with the Lyman 356402 TC design in 9mm sized at .358 and loaded to an OAL of 1.15

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52370&d=1304738207

I have used that Lyman 356402 TC boolit in a couple different 9mm pistols.

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/medium/249/249038.jpg

It's worked well in both my older Belgian Browning Hi-power, and Beretta 92FS.



- Bullwolf

[GWM]

Bullwolf: Very nice pictures!

It looks like the 356402 has a longer, thinner nose than the original style?
Could you tell me the length of the cone and width of the meplat of the original bullets?

I am looking to get a mold for a P.08 (Luger) and would like to get the measurements as close as possible.

[FISH4BUGS]

I have used the 356402 in the submachineguns a LOT! It feeds perfectly. The RCBS TC is a shorter and fatter bullet and still works fine.
I settled n a H&G 331 RN for everything.

[bruce drake]

I love that mold! It my preferred 9mm and light 38spl bullet.

[Screwbolts]

Bullwolf: Very nice pictures!

It looks like the 356402 has a longer, thinner nose than the original style?
Could you tell me the length of the cone and width of the meplat of the original bullets?

I am looking to get a mold for a P.08 (Luger) and would like to get the measurements as close as possible.

Why? haven't you done a pound cast of your chamber and sent it to Verel Smith of LBT molds and have him make you a perfectly fitted to your one of the kind , the only one in existence chamber that you have in that short barreled cannon, WHY?

He will make you a boolit mold that will fit your hand cannon like no other. everything else you buy will be a compromise. (period.) I do not think it is possible for you to buy any off the shelf boolit mold that will meet your IMHO, hypothetical requirement. no 2 molds are exactly alike period, it is impossible, for any 2 molds to be exactly the same. It appears that an Origonal by George boolit or photo does not exist.

Tell Verel what you want and he will make it to fit the pound cast of your hand cannon chamber/lead/barrel. It will be a done deal. no origonal bullit was designed to fit perfect, IMHO , it was designed to work in any firearm with a chamber /barrel made to +- tolerances of the finest order of 1902.

Enjoy the journey,

Ken

[GWM]

Why?
I want it to look like the original of the time.
So I want the shape of the original in a size to fit the gun. Simple.
I will have a custom mold made, with measurements adjusted for my chamber. And no, Veral is not the one to do it. He has not answered any of my emails even once. Accurate or Mountain is the way to go.

[Bullwolf]

Bullwolf: Very nice pictures!

It looks like the 356402 has a longer, thinner nose than the original style?
Could you tell me the length of the cone and width of the meplat of the original bullets?

I am looking to get a mold for a P.08 (Luger) and would like to get the measurements as close as possible.

Thanks.

I don't know for sure if these bullets were intended for use in a Luger. They came along with my old Belgian Browning Hi Power which was purchased many years ago from a guard on a Naval base. Since one of the cartridges was obviously from 1918, I thought they might be relevant.

Measurements are all outside measurements taken with calipers, not a micrometer.

The Rem-UMC 9mm cartridge:
Meplat - 0.170 inches
Cone length - 0.305 inches

The Western 1918 9mm cartridge:
Meplat - 0.180 inches
Cone Length - 0.310 inches

Peters 9mm cartridge:
Meplat - 0.175
Did not really have a cone. Was more of a rounded flat nose.

For comparison.

Lyman 356402:
Meplat - 0.180 inches
Cone Length - 0.340 inches
Projectile OAL - 0.615 inches

You can probably look up the specs on the Lyman 356402 mould, to see how close my measurements really are.

I would think somewhere out there you'd be able to find the specs for the original 9mm Luger truncated cone bullet. Might even be found on a Luger forum.



- Bullwolf

[GWM]

Thanks, that is great. It will get me in the ballpark.

[Screwbolts]

GWM, you are apsolutly correct, it is your choice on who does your work, I know Verel is way up in years and does quality work when he can and I try to point him out to all I can. What ever your choice may be, it is the right one for you, it is possibly/clearly, your hard earned money, you will be trading for some pieces of metal with some holes in them.

Ken