Question to those running Triple7 in a cap and ball revolver.

[Mixxerd]

I have been looking for Goex locally and it is pretty scarce. What I can find all over is Triple7. My question to users of Triple7 in .44cal cap and ball revolvers, specifically the Remington style, do you decrease your powder charge from 30 to 25 or use the 30 as a magnum charge? How does your revolver handle it? I have heard of people using 40gr as a magnum charge with standard black powder. I have the stainless steel target model so no brass frame to worry about. I am getting a new CVA brass 5oz powder flask that has a 30gr tip to use specifically for loading that pistol. If I switch to Triple7 will my revolver be able to handle the extra charge? I would like the extra velocity because I will be using a heavier 240gr conical for hunting out of it. Ultimately I would like to get a chronograph and tripod, but there are other toys I am getting first. Thanks for your input about your use of Triple7 in your cap an ball.

[gilgsn]

Hi, I used 35gr of Triple7 in the same gun with a ball, but your conical is 100gr heavier.. I'd stay at 25 with such a heavy bullet. Wait for more opinions though, because I have never tried more than a 200gr conical with 24gr of 777. I might have written down the speed somewhere, but can't check til later..

Gil

[johnson1942]

you just might find a round ball is more accurate in your gun. i prefer the round ball in mine as it gives better accuracy and also all the power i want in a bullet. recoil is better and it is cheaper to shoot. i have 2, 38 conversions and 1, 44 that becomes a 45 converted. they are loaded the same as a conversion the same powder charge and bullet as they would if they were precussion. i shoot round balls in all they to extreem accuracy. i could not ask for tighter groups as they get tight groups. they didnt do near as well with cast bullets and i didnt like the recoil with the cast bullets. as far as power, if a bullet goes through both sides of a 50 gallon barrel its good enough. in tests ive done the roundball penetrates better then a soft lead conical bullet. what ever you shoot you will have fun but for your own interest give round balls a chance also.

[dtknowles]

I too have better accuracy with round balls, don't know if the extra power of conical is worth it.

Tim

[Mixxerd]

I was PMd an online source (Graf&Sons) where I could get Goex and Olde Eynsford which he strongly recommended. He said the Swiss powder was great but a bit more. Since I think I like the way Goex performs I will try out Olde Eynsford and see how it performs. I have been shooting .454 round balls too. I want to get a box of .457 and see how they do in my Remington. I have not completely shut out the round ball =) I just need to find out which size performs better in my cap and ball and get that mold, hell get both and have a variety of ball diameters to shoot. Probably not, I will just get a box of 100 .457 off Cabela's for like $20 I think, and try them out one day. I found my daughter's baby wipes do great at doing a quick clean of the internals so I can extend my shooing sessions without the cylinder getting too gummed up.

[Mixxerd]

I have never shot any .451 but I don't think that they will do that hot, the .454 hardly shaves off a "lead ring" and I fear that the .451 will reduce that ring too much or not have one at all.

[Pine Baron]

Hey Mixx,
I shoot a Lyman (Uberti) .44 Remmie. .451 RB just rattles down the barrel, .457 leaves too much lead behind and patterns instead of groups. .454 RB behind 30 gn. Black, 28 gn. Pyrodex & 777, gives me 3" groups at 10yd.s. Good for me. YMMV.

[Mixxerd]

Pin Baron, That is what I fear would be the results I get too. I will just stick with the .454 because I know it works. I need to practice more because I found that I would occasionally jerk a tiny bit in anticipation for the recoil. I need to remember to just squeeze smooth and let the recoil happen.

[Pine Baron]

Hi Mixx,
I forgot to add:
1. Conicals aren't as accurate as RB's, in my gun, YMMV.
2. Weights I quoted were by Volume.
Always be safe

[Mixxerd]

I need to get better about applying the same compression to each shot. I know that does effect my accuracy. I had some conicals that were under-sized that my dad had cast and I used because that's what I had with the gun when I inherited it. After shooting some of those at paper targets(because I had been shooting at a coffee can on the ground) I saw how wildly they flew and put them all in the rejects bullet bin and will re-cast them into something more useful. They are lubed with a beeswax based lube so that will act as a flux when I add them to the pot.

[Omnivore]

It is a common misconception that because T7 produces better velocity it generates higher pressures. This is NOT stated by the manufacturer. Yes; they do talk about reducing your charge volume compared to BP, but the reason is TO ACHIEVE THE SAME (or similar) TRAJECTORY. It is not a safety issue. Rather, it is one of exterior ballistic performance relative to black powder.

You can stuff as much T7 in your modern Remington New Model Army repro chamber as will fit, and unless you're using super extra heavy conicals you have nothing to worry about.

All that being said; Jeeze, yeah; get the powder you want by ordering it and having it shipped to you. Very few local retailers are stocking real black powder anymore because of the extra rules and storage requirements imposed by the ATF. Smokeless powder and black powder substitutes fall into the same category, legal-wise, and they don't carry all the same requirements/impediments as black powder.

I order powder once or twice a year, and don't bother over the local sellers not having it. I could drive an hour and a half round trip to buy BP over the counter, but why bother?

[Mixxerd]

Thanks for the clarification on T7 velocity and pressure clarification, it makes the use of T7 seem more appealing. What is the major downside to Pyrodex and other smokeless powders, do they cause damage to the bore and cylinders if not cleaned right away?

Edit: I may be confused as to what smokeless powders are and could probably use clarification.

[sixshootertexan]

I would also like to thank Omnivore. I've always used Pyrodex P and I'm about to run out. I want to switch to T7 FFFG or APP. The local reloading store has both but has T7 in stock all the time.

[Omnivore]

Mixxerd; whoa there. I did not say that Pyrodex or any black powder substitute was smokeless powder. Rather, the substitutes are in the same legal and storage & transportation regulation class as smokeless powder. That's a big difference.


"Smokeless powder" refers to any among a vast array of propellants based on nitro cellulose or nitro glycerine, or on a combination of the two, with other chemicals added to "moderate" the burning rates, stabilize the powder, make it flow better, or etc. "Single base" powders are usually nitro cellulose based whereas "double base" powders contain both nitro glycerine and nitro cellulose. Smokeless powders are used in modern metallic cartridges, and they tend to generate much higher peak pressures than black powder or black powder substitutes. Smokeless powders usually aren't entirely free of smoke, but they smoke a lot less than BP or any BP substitute.

What we think of as a modern, high power rifle owes it's birth to smokeless powder.

In the early days of commercial smokeless powder, starting in earnest in the 1890s, some guns were blown up because of the higher pressure, mainly because users didn't understand the huge difference in properties between the old stuff (which we now call "black powder") and the new nitro powders. So it is that a gun must be "proofed" for smokeless powder or what came be known as "nitro". The steel must be of greater strength and/or heavier construction to handle "nitro" powders. "Nitro proofed" is another term for a gun built and proof-tested for smokeless powder, and that is also where we get the names of some early cartridges designed for smokeless, like the "Nitro Express" African hunting cartridges of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Other cartridges, like the 45 Colt, 38 Special, 22 LR and others made the transition from black powder to smokeless, and so today they are grossly over-sized for the small amount of smokeless powder they need to generate the velocities they were designed for. A typical smokeless charge for 38 Special for example, takes up only a tiny amount of the case capacity, whereas the same case would have been filled with black powder. Even then there are guns chambered for those cartridges that were made for black powder and it is unsafe to fire typical smokeless loads in them. If you have an old gun chambered for one of these old cartridges that started out on black powder, it's wise to know in advance whether it is strong enough for use with modern smokeless loads.

Smokeless powders come in a wide array of "burning rates", each designed for a specific range of operating pressures. Danger lurks in the following process; the higher the pressure the higher the temperature that's generated, and the higher the temperature and pressure, the faster something burns, thus you can get a run-away effect and..."KaBoom". That's also what's happening inside your car engine when you use the wrong gasoline and it starts to "ping" at heavy engine loads (it was common in the old carburetor/contact point ignition engines). This sort of thing isn't nearly so much a problem for real black powder as it is for smokeless.

The big, Magnum rifle cases taking large charges of slow. Running rifle powder, and the tiny pistol cases taking small charges of relatively fast burning pistol powder. In the Magnum pistol to light carbine range of cartridges, you find some overlap, meaning that the same powder will sometimes be used in both.

One of the challenges for smokeless powder manufacturers has been to control the burning rate for the cartridges it's intended for, without letting pressure peak and so create an unsafe condition. In recent years, more progress is still being made in that direction, and so we're seeing higher velocities while still maintaining specified pressure limits.

The burning rates of black powder on the other hand does not vary so much, with different granulation size being the primary means of affecting different burning rates.

I don't see any great downside to using a BP substitute. Some people have their own opinions, and the different substitutes do behave a little bit differently from one other, including having slightly different fouling characteristics, so it doesn't hurt to experiment and see what you think works well in your gun.

One characteristic of either Pyrodex or T7 that you might say is an upside is that they are less dense, or they are "fluffier" than real black, while at the same time they're designed to replace black powder on a volume-for-volume basis. Since they are all sold by the pound, it means you get quite a few more shots per pound of Pyrodex or T7 than you do from a pound of real black. Keep that in mind when comparing prices.

So there's a whole bloody dissertation for you. It's all very general but I think it gets the points across, one of which is that a BP substitute is NOT a smokeless powder.

Also you should never load any smokeless powder into any cap and ball revolver or any other gun made for black powder if you intend to keep all your body parts. If you're not particularly fond of your various body parts, then have at it.

[Newtire]

I found out that Pyrodex was much worse than Black Powder for being corrosive. The 777 substitute is definitely more energetic in my working with it in a few long guns. I fired it in a Uberti .36 and a Pietta .36 cal. using a round ball and enough 777 to leave room enough to get a round ball in there. Had no problems but will have to give it a try with the heavy conicals. There's a guy I'm waiting to hear from to order a mould but he's sick with the flu right now and hasn't gotten back to me. I tried the Black MZ and it burns fine but gives lower velociy until you put heavier slugs in front of it so I will probably use that mainly in rifles and shotgun. Will try that out better once I get a little more free time.

So, 777 does shoot great safety-wise with roundballs and the Lee conicals is what I can tell you. That is also in a .36. I have a Euroarms .44 Rogers & Spencer and a Ruger OA to test out. Tomorrow is range day with underhammer rifles though so revolters will have to wait for now.

[Mixxerd]

Thank you Omnivore for that explanation, Yes I think I was saying "smokeless" thinking that was what Pyrodex and other black powder substitutes were. Was not thinking that using a powder designed for use inside of brass would be safe to use in my cap and ball. But you never know what someone is thinking so you have to come in with the safety first rule and make sure everyone is clear on the proper terminology. =) I saw a picture of a cap and ball, not sure if it was a ROA or replica but they said he used pistol powder from some handgun cartridges he had sitting around and it blew 2-3 clinders open and ripped the frame apart. I think it was in a youtube video actually, and could have even been linked to this site? But thanks for clarifying that Smokeless is not Black powder substitute =)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_XNWeMqCT0

Here is the video I meant.

[rodwha]

I use 3F Olde Eynsford and Triple 7 in my Pietta Remington NMA (and as well as my ROA and .50 cal rifle). However my cylinder has been framed to 0.449" from the factory 0.446" so as not to stress the loading lever so much using my ROA projectiles (0.457" RB and 0.456" bullets). Also to reduce the amount it is undersized as the groove diameter is 0.452" in my pistol.

My guns are hunting arms and so I don't bother with the types of loads I typically see for match shooting (15-22 grns with cereal filler). Looking at the various chronograph data 25 grns of the more energetic powders (Swiss, Olde E, and T7) 25 grns will likely give you similar ballistics as the lower end .45 ACP loads with bullets.

Mine does best with 30 grns of either powder with a ball or my bullets, though I've only tried in increments of 5 grns. This is not a max load. Estimated in the mid 300 ft/lb range.

I use my custom bullets made for me by Accurate Mold. One is a 170 grn WFN that's 0.400" long and the other is a 195 grn WFN bullet that's about the length of a ball at 0.460" long. I had to modify the loading window to use them.

I have another design I haven't ordered yet at 245 grns and may need to modify the frame again. This is my hog bullet as I want mass for that.

As you were told T7 can be used in max loads in your pistol safely.

[Hellgate]

I've never used T7 in my C&Bs. I used PyroP a long while back and found it had delayed ignition when using a lube wad. If rammed down firmly it was pretty reliable but I have used Goex BP FFF or 5FA ever since and it is pretty reliable. Is T7 as easily ignited as BP in a C&B?

[rodwha]

I haven't noticed it igniting slower, but I didn't notice Pyrodex P having issues either. I use the newer Rem #10's on ToTW nipples on my Ruger. I haven't used Pyrodex in my Remington though.

I greatly dislike the fouling that Pyrodex leaves and used the majority in my rifle to break it in.

[Hellgate]

I mostly use Pyro P or RS in the shotgun when I do get it (usually used/open bottles at a gun club gear sale).

[Jugband]

Thanks for the clarification on T7 velocity and pressure clarification, it makes the use of T7 seem more appealing. What is the major downside to Pyrodex and other smokeless powders, do they cause damage to the bore and cylinders if not cleaned right away?

Edit: I may be confused as to what smokeless powders are and could probably use clarification.

You're right, Smokeless powders are entirely different from Black Powder and black powder substitutes.

They generate pressures much, much higher than black powder does and it builds much quicker.

Even charges that are well below what might be called "very light" have a potential for blowing up a black powder gun.


Basically there are about half a dozen black powder substitutes, and a couple of common brands of black powder, and everything else is Smokeless Powder, which will blow up your gun if you should ask for it in a gun shop then load it in your weapon.

If you aren't busy loading cartridges for modern firearms, you should eliminate the phrase "Smokeless Powder" from your vocabulary, and from your mind, if possible. It will only cause confusion over things you say or ask, and possibly get you advice that will have you shopping for a new gun, or for an emergency room.

[Mixxerd]

If you aren't busy loading cartridges for modern firearms, you should eliminate the phrase "Smokeless Powder" from your vocabulary, and from your mind, if possible. It will only cause confusion over things you say or ask, and possibly get you advice that will have you shopping for a new gun, or for an emergency room.

Already working on this and it is mostly done. I only caught myself starting to type "smokeless" once since I was corrected by Omnivore earlier. I was asking someone on FB about it and I caught myself at "smo" then I was back to typing black powder substitute. I am up for a bit of brainwashing of myself just takes a little time. Just have to be sure to ask for what I want by name to avoid any confusion at all.

[Mixxerd]

On a side note I think I will try out T7, going to pick up a pound of it around August and shoot a bit with it to get used to it before hunting season and see how it goes during the season.

[gilgsn]

With the Lee 200gr conical and 24gr of 777 I got 728fps. 30gr=844fps. .454 round ball: 24gr=767. 30gr=859fps. Pietta 1858 with 5.5" barrel.

I would not shoot more than a 200gr bullet in that gun. If I wanted more power I'd use more powder under a round ball. In my .45 Colt conversion cylinder I used the Lee RNFP 200gr with 8gr of Unique, a light load.

A pure lead ball at 1000fps will be devastating enough.

Gil

[sixshootertexan]

After watching the video's from the Duelist1954 I have a question. He mentioned that T7 does not like being compressed. Does it really make that much difference in how much you compress it? Seems to me that just eyeballing how deep you are seating will give you more velocity variations than seating it firmly.

[rodwha]

I seat mine heavily as it's the only way to ensure consistency. I don't see any variation in group size or POI then when I use the same amount of Olde E. If the pressures were erratic the group would open up and be noticed at 15 yds.

My ROA's more accurate load (mine are hunting sidearms so I don't use light target loads) is 35 grns with a ball, 170, and 195 grn custom bullet. My Pietta NMA's accurate load is 30 grns with the same projectiles.