Groups.........

[JSH]

I am curious as to what folks expect from a handgun. I will include everything but bolt guns here. I see a wide variety of results, from excellent to not much more than holes in paper.
I will include optics also, as I saw some results from a fellow with a 4x scope@25 yards, that I wouldn't be at all happy with at 100.

I I bring this up after a bit of range time a while back. Had my GP 100 3" 38 special and a fair bit of ammo. Some gents there that I know and the laughed about the 38. They had a fair amount of pistols laid out and offered me to shoot a real handgun. They were shooting at about 10-15 yards. Doing ok but nothing I would be proud of. The offered up on of their target frames and targets,so I took them up on it. It had a few hits on it but still usable.
I proceed to remove the center of the paper. I was ignored after the first cylinder or two. We put up new targets and went on some more.
These gents had some good quality stuff. Yet shot patterns.
I have sent the same on the net. Guys spend hundreds to thousand on full blown customs. Then show pictures of some pretty good to excellent groups, then I find they are at 25 yards or so but for the most part all under 50. My wheel guns are all
bone stock for the most part. But they will shoot as well if not better than what I see these guys posting.
I don't have a custom, yet. However it did take me way way to long to get an FA. I know there are a few here that have issues with FA and we don't need to get into that. The two I am very familiar with are 44 mag and a 357. Both of them shoot way better than the trigger man. Scoped at 100 the will average 2 1/2" on demand. This is for two full cylinders, 10 shots.
My blackhawk hunter in 41 mag is a 5-6" gun at 100. It needs cylinder work and thread choke removed and I am pretty confident it will shrink to at least half of that.

So what do the majority look for in the accuracy department.
Jeff

[Outer Rondacker]

My rule is at 5-25 yards I want to shoot a beer can with an SEMI auto. Wheel guns (no scope) I aim for soccer ball size at up to 75yards. As I type this I am going to measure my target from the other day at 50yds with my 44. It came out this. Five on paper with a 3.75 spread. With this said the paper is 7x7 and one is missing. That means I missed entirely. I am happy with this. My eyes have issues making out a soccer ball at 100yrds so sorry. I would have to say you should be dang happy with your results. Free hand shooting that distance. I know I am.

Now not all semi autos are the same. I would not put a glock up next to a worked 1911. What I consider good with a plastic gun is by no means good with a 1911 frame.

One more thing for some reason not sure why I am way better shooting any distance with 38s out of my 357 gp 100 and 44spl out of my S&W 44mag. Now for my sp101 I can not hit a dang thing with 38s but dead nuts when I shoot 357s out of it.

[44man]

For me, I never shoot less then 50 yards or meters when I shot IHMSA. I do not want more then 1" there. Actually I have beat that at 200 meters. But most loads are for deer now.
Short, carry guns are tested at 7 yards, rarely at 20 even with a Ransom Rest. Some gun writers only count the best three out of six.
I have revolvers out of box except a trigger job that did 1/2" at 100. Hundreds of groups like that. Best was 2-1/2" at 500 yards. Creedmore, no bags.
I remember once when we at the range. A guy asked if he could set a target so we stopped. He set at about 10 yards and shot a SBH without touching paper. I asked if I could shoot it. I shot Creedmore and clicked settings to hit water bottles at 200 every shot. I gave his gun back and he packed up and left very fast.I used my loads not his factory junk.
I agree that accuracy is is what each thinks it should be.

[Mica_Hiebert]

Most guns will shoot better than the guy behind the trigger I have never shot any of my pistols for groups but I can hit the white part of a barb wire T post at 15 yards pretty consistently and I have a Chunk of 4 inch pipe about 8 inches long hanging from a chain that I can whack with regularity at 75 yards with all of my hand guns my most repeatable accuracy is with my Ruger 22/45 I can zap tweet birds at 15 yards and ground squirels at 50 yards + no scopes just trigger time.

[Lefty Red]

First off, %{#>+ anyone that bad mouths a 38! Some "males" probably hold their junk with one hand while touching their pistol with the other. A 38 WC in the eye is way better than a 600 T Rex Killer Nuclear Tipped in the foot!

Hand sized groups from 0-21 feet. I shoot production weapons, maybe a changed out spring here or there, but I keep my self defense weapons stock. Plus these type of shooting is usually quicker shots and I'm trying to get as many shots on target in a CNS area to stop a threat. Big Dot sights help me.

25-75 yards, about the limit of my open sight shooting with a handgun, I like to have a 1-3" group on the bench. Usually opens up to 2-4" off hand unless I slow down. But a 4"x4" target simulates a deer's heart or brain and as long as I keep it in there on the first shot I'm good. In fact, I don't shoot for groups at this range. I have a poster board with 3.5" squared Post It Notes on, about ten or twelve, and just shoot each one. If I can put the round in the target then it's a dead deer. And I seem more accurate then trying to shot for groups. Just mental I guess.

100-150 yards, it's a 6" square with the above mentioned 3.5" square centered and it helps with centering up my Red Dot. I try to keep everything touching the smaller square. I shoot like I hunt, off a foldable bipod or leaning up against a post and braced on leg. I would/do get better groups from the bench.

I figure if I can get a =\> 44 caliber bullet within a couple inches of a deer's heart then it's good.

Jerry

[contender1]

As we all can see here,,,, accuracy means different things to different people AND when applied to different guns. I expect better accuracy out of some of my handguns at longer distances than others. My T/C Contenders are expected to deliver excellent accuracy at 100-200 yds plus,,, while a few of my semi-autos aren't even shot at those distances due to their lack of similar accuracy.
And by all means,,, I think the biggest factor is the shooter. Most firearms are better than most shooters.

[PWS]

I'm on the downhill side of vision these days so irons sights can be frustrating but that said, the basic accuracy standard I strive for is 1" per 25 yards. I can't do that with most of my loads most of the time and I know a large part of that is just being lazy and sloppy at the casting pot, reloading bench and shooting range. However, all my guns with a favored load and red dot sight will do this. As far as run of the mill accuracy, 2" per 25 is pretty common and more than 3" per 25 is unacceptable.

[white eagle]

My handgun accuracy is more toward hunting than simply shooting small groups ,what I mean by that is accuracy that will on demand bring a cease of life to the animal I am hunting.
Most all of my hunting accuracy from revolvers I have comes at the 50 and 100 yard benches
that is after I get the alloy and charges that give repeatable groups
actual group size of say 1.5'-2.0" at 50 yds. is what I strive for but is not the only factor I consider when seeking a hunting load

[PerpetualStudent]

Most guns will shoot better than the guy behind the trigger I resemble that remark! :-P

Right now I'm the weakest link in the chain. I got an air pistol recently to get consistent trigger time and with practice I've shrunk from a 3 in group at 15 feet down to 1 inch. I think I'm still the weak link. I haven't bothered trying it from a rest to see what its "accuracy" is because right now it's better than me.

[Bigslug]

It's a handgun. My life is too short to treat it like a rifle. If I get minute of large mammal heart inside of 25-50 yards depending on the platform, I call it "sufficient good lab technique applied" and move on to the next project.

[JSH]

It's a handgun. My life is too short to treat it like a rifle. If I get minute of large mammal heart inside of 25-50 yards depending on the platform, I call it "sufficient good lab technique applied" and move on to the next project.
I also took that attitude until about 25 years ago. Enter my first contender. It has been all down hill after that,so to speak. What I did with a 223 and 7-30 waters at that time,is nothing compared to what is done with the SSP's today.
Recolvers. I know what is able to be done with a good one and all the planets are in alignment. I can hold my own most of the time but I still strive for better.
Auto's. Lol the do not like me and the feeling is pretty mutual. Model 41 or colt gold cup makes no difference. I myself could not get "me" to shoot one good, let alone well. I have had some darn good ones too.

Bigslug, give bullseye a try. Not close range nor is it long distance. Apply your self and strive to get better. I did and all of my shooting improved a LOT. This was trap,IHMSA, rifle and even archery.

I have become a wheel gun junkie. I can't pick many up more than twice without bringing it home.

[Rodfac]

I'm still shooting with open sights at 70 yrs old. From Keith's old "long range" back rest position [knees up, back against a rest, gun extended between knees], I expect my hand loads to do 2" at 25 yds or better. With some work on the load, and if the sun is behind me where I get a good look at the sights, all of my 4" or longer bbl'd hand guns will do this. Shooting groups for me, is a study in keeping the exact same grip on the gun and Keith's old position helps that a lot. I shoot better groups that way then off bags.

Standing on my own legs, in a modified Weaver position and having a good "eyes" day, I can do about double what the supported position gives me, i.e. 4" at 25 yds, given a gun capable of 2" gps. Some of my loads do way better than factory ammunition, some do not. Casting slowly, with a good sort out afterwards, helps reduce the flyers, but not all of them.

Writers that claim a 1" gun and do that by disregarding a flyer or two in each group, are kidding themselves and us too. That flyer maybe a bad cylinder, or a sloppy lock up in an automatic...it may be a void in a cast bullet...lot's of causes, and nailing them down is part and parcel of the game.

HTH's Rod

[Bigslug]

I also took that attitude until about 25 years ago. Enter my first contender. . .

. . .Bigslug, give bullseye a try. Not close range nor is it long distance. Apply your self and strive to get better . . .

I HAD that attitude until about 10-15 years ago. . .

I've dabbled with both the SSP's and Bullseye. The bolt-action, sub-MOA handguns are entertaining, but I keep concluding they're a poor substitute for a rifle and big to the point of defeating the purpose of a handgun. As for competition, I got to Expert with Highpower and burned out with my "hobby" having become nearly another job. The non-match days had become "High Science" load development lab time or doing "low cost" practice strapped into a leather coat with a .22 sporting sights that cost as much as the average plinker. I woke up one morning and said "I have forgotten how to plink", and ended up buying a pump Winchester that I WON'T put better sights on and through which I can shoot S, L, or LR in the same magazine and be satisfied with the simple joy of watching a soda can falling over. The best days on the range are when the arrival time is set by none other than me, the relay schedule is my own, and when no one else is there.

I've HAD my period of letting my mild OCD run rampant with loading and shooting technique. Now, my two maxims are to (1.) "Keep it Real" and (2.) to ask "What is this tool really FOR?" If both it and I can perform satisfactorily to the answer of that question, I am FAR happier puttering around the outer fringes of reasonableness than wracking my brain and body against an "un-needed need" to send a constant stream of X-1's against the sound barrier.

I believe it was Tom Clancy's character John Clark who opined "Good enough is good enough. Perfect is a P. I. T. A." I've taken it to heart.

[tazman]

I like that.
I have been the super accurate route with a couple of my hobbies(archery and trap), spending loads of money for whatever the best was at the time. I got super accurate with my archery(12 state championships, 2 regional championships, and 1 national team championship) but finally ended up tearing the ligaments in my shoulder and putting an end to that.
Trap was just a major expense. I was just good enough to not lose too much but not good enough to win much.
I compete with handguns at the local range just for fun. I will never be the best. I am not steady enough nor do I have good enough eyesight, let alone good trigger control. I now how to do it in my mind. My body will no longer allow me to do it consistently.
I group well enough to have lots of fun at the range. I group well enough to make sure a bad guy won't go far by himself if I need to stop him. I can still group well enough some days that I get respect from good shooters. For me at this stage of my life, I am in it for the fun.

[GoodAlloy]

If you can consistently put all shots on a playing card from 21ft standing unsupported or if off the bench at 40 yards you have an accurate toy. If you want more than that you will need to build one as exceeding these limits will not come from over the counter mass produced specimens. Do you really need more than that? If so you are probably in need of your popper to have a stock & longer barrel.
just my 2 cents worth.

[JSH]

Glad to hear I am not alone with my OCD.
A darn good bit of input gents.
When Ken got me talked into and convinced me that cast can shoot right along with FLGC projectiles,he created a monster of sorts. I enjoy every minute of casting and enjoy the end results, even more so when they are good to excellent.
When a hobby or passion becomes a chore or isn't fun we have defeated the purpose.

[marshall623]

My scoped T/C's all shoot very well as far as groups , I've out shot a lot of long guns with them . Shooting from field positions is still a work in progress . Open sighted T/C's and the GP 100 not so hot , small groups are hard to come by and I'm pretty sure the gun's & the loads are up to it . I am working on getting better with the Irons and I need to practice more and most of all have fun . + 2 on when casting and reloading become a chore so you make it to the next match . Moving forward I plan on practicing more with the open sighted guns using field positions

[M-Tecs]

To the OP's questions of what I expect from my handguns that is based on what I need it to do.

My 1911 Cary pistol has lesser accuracy requirements than my 1911 bullseye pistols. Same for my SASS pistols. For cowboy action shooting 6 inch groups at 25 year is more than needed, however, in the same revolver but different applications 2 inch groups at 25 won't cut it.

[wv109323]

I shoot NRA Bullseye. All my .22LR guns will do 1 1/4" at 50 yards in a ransom rest. That is with CCI STD. Velocity or equivalent. Guns include High Standards and Kart Conversion units.
My .45 ACPs will hold around 2-2 1/2" at fifty with my reloads.
I was testing a .38 revolver (S&W 14) for accuracy over the weekend. I got about 3" at 25 yards from a portable rest. That is not acceptable for me and want I need. The 10 ring at 25 yards is roughly 1 3/4" at 25 yards. I would like to have around 1 1/2" at 25 yards.

[dtknowles]

If you can consistently put all shots on a playing card from 21ft standing unsupported or if off the bench at 40 yards you have an accurate toy. If you want more than that you will need to build one as exceeding these limits will not come from over the counter mass produced specimens. Do you really need more than that? If so you are probably in need of your popper to have a stock & longer barrel.
just my 2 cents worth.

Need? some of this is just for fun. But 7 yards off hand and 40 yards from the bench is a piece of cake for stock Ruger MKII if the target is a playing card but maybe you were talking about center fire hand cannon Revolvers and SemiAutos. Those are pretty weak goals for single shot handguns even hand cannons. Personally my goal of 10 shots at 25 yards on the 3 inch round bulleyse stick-on targets off hand at with my Ruger MKII. 10 for 10 is eluding me, I am at 8 or 9 with one or two flyers. Funny think is that I am doing about the same with my Ruger 10-22 but I practice with the pistol much more. Of the bench the pistol is more accurate than the rifle but they both shoot well under an inch at 25 yards. Keeping all the shots on a playing card at even 50 yards shooting from a bench would not be a problem.

I can't do the same with any of my centerfire handguns. Well, my Dan Wesson 32-20 will on a good day but not every time.

You did not say so but I assumed you meant 10 shots. My Dan Wesson 357 Max will mostly keep 10 shots in the 8 inch bull at 100 yards and that is actually a pretty valuable capability with full house loads.

Tim

[BCgunworks]

It varies based on what the gun is for. A pocket rocket doesn't need to do what a 8 3/8 smith does.

I just want consistency.

[44man]

Lots of good comments. We all go to pot too. I went to shoots and spent all my time getting ready for the next shoot, nothing else got done. Now I am an old goat and nothing still gets done!
I used to spend two days cleaning the garage or basement, now I just watch dust get thick.

[SSGOldfart]

I've shot little bit of near every thing in years past,but these days it's more about hitting what I aim for than how small the group's are.yep most guns are better out of the box then most shooters can shot.

[4bisley5]

I feel confident when my factory revolvers keep my groups to 1 1/2 inch or less at 25 yds on the bench. Since my deer hunting takes place in the woods here in NC I don't have the long range type shooting they have out west, so a 40 to 50 yarder is long for me. After getting a good load worked out I then leave the bench and practice shooting from hunting positions.

[376Steyr]

A while back I put my first red dot sight on a pistol. I assumed my well-practiced, braced over sandbags, two-handed hold that I thought gives me a rock-solid sight picture with iron sights, and watched in amazement as the red dot swam about in a lazy 2" circle on the 25 yard target. This gave me much to think about.

[Whiterabbit]

I am curious as to what folks expect from a handgun.

Jeff

VERY simple. I expect to get 100% of the rounds into the black of NRA 25 yard rapid fire target. This is generally an "easy" target that lends itself to high scores. Also, hitting the black means a dead animal every time.

NOW, the complicated part is how far away to put the target? That's up to me and the gun.

If I have my 2-6x scoped 10" barrel BFR in 460, I expect to be in the black at 100 yards. And had better punch out the X ring at 25, even though that's not the goal. My snub nose 45 colt? I don't need or expect it to be in the black at 100 yards. 15 yards for sure, and I'd like to see 25 yards.

But accuracy standard? I want to use only black colored target pasters. and an NRA 25 yard rapid fire target.

[johnson1942]

with a smith model 17, .22 wheel target gun my son and i have taken prairie dogs to 250 or more yards. first shot to see where you hit and then walk it in. before the 6 shots are used the dog is dead. also easily to 100 yards, just aim and kill them. i had a high standard supermatic trophy that could do the same. larger cal. revolvers can be very very accurate. my friends colt trooper with a 5 inch barrel .38 special, drives tacks. depends upon a gun, i wont own a gun with a bad trigger or doesnt drive tacks.

[Whiterabbit]

I think though that I am going to switch to an NMLRA 50 yard target. The black is about the same size, but it's MUCH harder to score well.

[Groo]

Groo here
Well,,,,,,,,, Most of my shooting is at closer ranges [ the eyes you know] but my hunting loads were always tested at 25 then100yds.[we don't shoot much over that in Ohio]
First , Went for power, [we are shooting handguns after all] then adj for group.
My test was 5 or 6 [a cylinder] or 8 [ yes I have hunted with an auto] off hand at 100 on an 8 in paper plate.[ with irons]
Almost all my hunt guns will do this with full up " Groo Monster Maulers" or "Death Star " loads.
If I was to shoot out west, backing down some for smaller groups would be done.
What I did find is the "super heavy" or SSK "ramslammer" type bullets and loads were not needed
except for "special" targets [like steel or "him moose" and bigger] and so went back to more "normal"
loadings.
At that level , find a "pop can" 100yd load was easy.

[dtknowles]

...........................yep most guns are better out of the box then most shooters can shot.

I am not picking on you, you are just the latest to say it but I always questioned that statement.

Does that mean that you think most factory guns are accurate enough out of the box or that you think most shooters are not able to shoot well enough to take advantage of the accuracy of factory guns.

I would think that most of us would shoot a little better if we were shooting some of the better factory guns than if we shoot some of the worse factory guns.

Tim

[ghh3rd]

I haven't used my .44 Ruger SBH lately but with Lee 310gr boolits was getting 2" groups at 50 yds. Not spectacular, but I was happy. Now I'm getting back into doing more casting - loading - shooting, and don't see why I can't get 1" groups at 50 yards, with some tweaking.

[tdoyka]

youse guys gotta look at my targets!!![smilie=l:

i should have put my 44 mag(super redhawk/7.5 barrel) up for sale right after i came home from a stroke. but noooooo.....one day i will use it. well stubborn me, that day has come!!! i started out at 15 yards, well a blind man with both arms tied behind his back could have beaten me. yes, it was that bad. since i only have one arm(dang stroke!!![smilie=l:) i tried to use a tripod. and then since i have a hard time trying to use the factory sights, i have bought warrens one hole sight(peep sight) and a marbles green optic sight. since then i am able to group 5 shots at 3" or less at 15 yards. next is 25 yards, then 35 and finally 50 yards. that will be all that i need to group 3 1/2 - 4" at 50 yards(using unique and 250gr mihek hp) to shoot a deer.

i was and am thinking of buying a ruger blackhawk in 44 spl with a 4.5" or so barrel. but that is another subject. so one armed, using a tripod and using unique i'll have to say that for me its 3 1/2 - 4" groups at 50 yards.

to think before i had a stroke, i would have never used a 3 1/2" group at 100 yards, let alone at 50 yards.

[ghh3rd]

tdoyka - no matter the group size, you are still at it having fun... and you will still be able to hunt and bring home meat.

[Texantothecore]

I am working on putting 6 shots inside a 6 inch circle with a Navy and a .45 colt. I've only been shooting handguns for just about a year and being able to do that would be very satisfying. I already have plans to shoot at a three inch circle but that may be a bit optimistic.

[JSH]

A good discussion and some good food for thought.
Tim I have seen more than once a mediocre shooter go out and spend a pile of money on a new gun,ammo and equipment. Then do not much better and at times even worse than they did to begin with.
I have gotten to the point I hate the term plinking, it has gotten crossed over into the blasting category. I used to "plink", though I was still serious about my out come. I have come to the thoughts of it being casual practice. Spinners and dualing trees, I still want the center of the plate on demand.
When I started casting it allowed me to shoot more at a savings, my time is worth little most days. In turn shooting more allowed me to gain in scores because of the extra practice. I cull my CB's pretty hard. Anything that doesn't look eye perfect is a cull. It is just to easy to recycle and get a perfect one. Settle for so so cast and you need to be ready to settle for so so results. I sort by eye,yet I still cull if one goes into the lube sizer and doesn't feel right. I got bad one summer and weighed every single match bullet, my scores did not change that I could see that time and effort did me any good. I do look close at the base for any signs of air pockets or bubbles.

[Thumbcocker]

At the risk of a slight thread diversion here.... When you sight in your handgun for 25 or 50 yards and then go for a target at 100 do you change the sight setting or just go Elmer and hold up a dab of front sight. For example I was shooting the CZ75 last Sunday. Got it zeroed at 25. Repaired to the 50 yard berm and set up a beverage container. I did not change my zero and was shooting with Kentucky windage. I had no problem bouncing the container around the berm but actually connecting with it was a bear. Especially when it fell over on its side. I was having to try to compensate by holding over about 2" and mostly just moved it. So.... what is the correct method?

[tdoyka]

tdoyka - no matter the group size, you are still at it having fun... and you will still be able to hunt and bring home meat.

it definitely does!!!