LONGBRANCH, 1944 No.4 Mk I* .303"

[Bigjohn]

OK!, I was ambushed. As soon as I walked into my dealers showroom this afternoon; he was standing there passing it across the counter to me.

He didn't even say, "G'day" to me.

Next, he hands me the barrel inspection light.

Well, I must say, it was real easy resting ones eyesight upon the fine piece of timber and steel. The barrel is just fine, no pitting and well looked after. The metalwork has a constistant pantina all over and no rust or pitting. The woodwork is smooth with no marks in it (scratches or dings) and is complete (not bubba'd). It has the "cheaper" version of the 'Singer' rear sight; the punched and folded metal version, which is complete and fully functional.

OK, so by now he knows I've taken the bait so he sets the hook so I can't swim away; "It's just come in today." :groner:

Now comes the fight; "How much??" ($$$$$). "I'd reckon it would be worth $500.00 (AUD)."

Has this bloke got ESP or something; how did he know how much cash I had available to spend. I know he didn't see me packing it in to my wallet.

Well, now I have the "Waiting period" to sit out until I can bring it home. [smilie=b:

As gullible as ever,
John.

[JeffinNZ]

And the problem is.............................????

Let us know how is spins up a CBE cast bullet John.

[robertbank]

Clearly the man should be reported. Are there no ethics left in the land downunder?;)

Trust the old girl will provide you with hours of pleasure on the range.

Take Care

Bob

[Ricochet]

Ah, you'll probably cool down before the waiting period's over. :-P

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Ah, nothing like a quality salesman who understands his clients. Congrats on the fine purchase.

gotta love it,

Dave

[quasi]

Virtually all Longbranch #4 mk1* have that sight, it is the only thing on them that is wanting. Here in Canada we are starting to see a bunch of Longbranches being imported that have been FTR'd in India, they are good condition with very good bores, so far.

[Bigjohn]

Since the television programming went to pot down here, I have a lot of time to do research.

So, last night I dragged out Ian Skennerton's Book on the LEE ENFIELD and researched the sight etc.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/LongbranchRearSight.jpg

The rear sight is either a Mk III or Mk IV rear sight as approved for production due to the difficulties in obtaining sufficient quanities of the Singer Mk I sights.
I have had experience with these sights before and somewhere here is a broken one which was on the last No. 4 I bought.

The rifle we are discussing does not appear to have been FTR(D) and has the 5 or 6 groove barrel (I didn't count them as I may have had an attack of No 4 fever).

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/LongbranchWoodaction.jpg

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/LongbranchMuzzle.jpg

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/LongbranchFulllength.jpg

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/LongbranchButtstock.jpg

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/LongbranchActionMarkings.jpg

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/LongbranchAction.jpg

I am lead to believe that the powers that be are going to do away with the 'Waiting Period' for subsequent Firearms of the same class (hopefully it passes through quickly).

Until next time,

John.

[Bigjohn]

The rear sight is marked (Mk 3) which according to Ian Skennerton should make it the fourth version of the sights approved for fitting to these rifles.

Mk. I was the "Singer".

Mk. II was the machined 'L' shaped sight with apertures for 300 and 600.

Mk. III was the first of the pressed metal 'Singer' type rear sights.

Mk. IV was the improved version of the pressed metal 'Singer' type sight. Changes were made to the catch and it's spring on the sliding aperture.

Anyone with further info please add to my knowledge base.

Thank you,
John.

[NVcurmudgeon]

The rear sight is marked (Mk 3) which according to Ian Skennerton should make it the fourth version of the sights approved for fitting to these rifles.

Mk. I was the "Singer".

Mk. II was the machined 'L' shaped sight with apertures for 300 and 600.

Mk. III was the first of the pressed metal 'Singer' type rear sights.

Mk. IV was the improved version of the pressed metal 'Singer' type sight. Changes were made to the catch and it's spring on the sliding aperture.

Anyone with further info please add to my knowledge base.

Thank you,
John.

Bigjohn, thanks for the organized list of Mks. of No. 4 rear sights. My 1943 Fazakerly came with a Mk. II sight that has been replaced with a Mk. I from Springfield Sporters. Enjoy your new Longbranch, by all accounts they are all good shooters.

[smokemjoe]

CBE there makes some good molds for your rifle.

[Bigjohn]

CBE there makes some good molds for your rifle.

I have many of Jim's (CBE) molds here, he does excellent work.

I may need to buy another mold for this rifle.

I would like to ask the members of this forum a question about the finish on the metalwork of the rifle.

The dealer and myself cannot work out why the metal is the colour it is. This colouration affects most of the metal work excluding the end caps of the stock.
It does not appear as if anyone has attempted to remove the bluing but that it may just be a natural pantina appearing on aged but well cared for metal work.

I have not removed any woodwork yet to check the finish of the metalwork under the stock.

I have only managed to find one spot of rust on the rifle and that is on the heel of the butt stock where it would have been standing in a rack.

John.

[runfiverun]

it does look as though someone tok a bit of oil and some steel wool to the metal.
kinda a "patina" thing.
my #4 is a bit darker in the metal.

[Ivantherussian03]

Everybody needs a project

Sounds like fun

[Bigjohn]

Well, I had to go and have another look today, just to check and see that he hadn't solded it on me (not that he would).

Initial checks reveal that it has a 6 groove barrel not the five groove Enfield style rifling. I will confirm this when I take possession of it permanently.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/No4RearSightsMk1Mk2Mk3.jpg

The above photo shows a collection of the type of rear sights which could be found on any of the No. 4 Rifles. Left to right; Mk I "SINGER" only marked to 800; Mk II flip style apertures for 300 & 600 and the Mk III with the single finger spring and straight slider catch.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/No4RearSightsMk1.jpg

The Mk I "SINGER" Rear sight.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/No4RearSightsMk2.jpg

The Mk II flip style apertures for 300 & 600.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/No4RearSightsMk3.jpg

The Mk III with the single finger spring and straight slider catch. The catch on this one is missing a small piece from the end of the arm where it fits into it's notch on the riser. Hence the arm sticks out more than it should.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/LongbranchRearSight.jpg

The Mk IV with the double finger spring and curved slider catch.

A close inspection of the metal surfaces which are lighter in colour than the rest show no signs of having been worked with steel wool. This cannot explain the lighter colour.

No surface on this rifle appears to have been 'dressed' up with steel wool or sandpaper.

John.

[Buckshot]

...............The coloring in the left side, action closeup has the appearance of a cold blue to me. Could be the lighting also as a photo taken farther away appears darker. Are action markings normally that lightly stamped?

.................Buckshot

[Bigjohn]

The lighting in the shop is fairly poor and the small sized mesh over the windows does not help. It is hard to say what may be the cause of the discolouration.

Someone may have been trying a professional touch up job I don't know. It is strange that some metal has been done but not the barrel, timber fittings or stock bands.

It's harder to discuss this as I rifle is in the shop and if I wish to check out some point or another I have to travel to inspect it.

The Dealer passed comment today that I should have my own set of keys.

The markings do appear to be lightly stamped compared to other rifles; perhaps a question in itself? (I have just checked the barreled action of a Longbranch No. 4 Mk I* 1944 and the markings do not appear to be much deeper than those on the rifle we are discussing. Lighting and camera flash could be playing a part in the appearences.)

The real proof will be in how well it shoots when I get it to the range.

John.

[nicholst55]

I agree - the left side of the receiver does look like it's been cold blued. I would venture that the stock bands don't match the color of the rest of the rifle because they're probably not original. Still - not a bad looking Lee Enfield.

[Bigjohn]

Well, even if someone has had a go at it; it is still a very tidy piece.

The wood does not appear to have had any work done on it and the marking on the underside of the foreend is still clear.

The screw slots have not been budda'd, the action is smooth, the trigger crisp and the barrel clean and smooth.

When I can bring it home I will investigate it's origins further.

John.

[NVcurmudgeon]

John, could the possibly mismatched spot of blueing be associated with an arsenal repair or refinish? Also, the markings on the butt socket, including manufacturer, on my 1943 Fazakerly are faint. Guess in wartime fast production trumps meticulous engraving!

[Four Fingers of Death]

I think Simon Lawrance at Lawrance in Sydney has 'Singer' sights. Nice one mate.

[Bigjohn]

John, could the possibly mismatched spot of blueing be associated with an arsenal repair or refinish? Also, the markings on the butt socket, including manufacturer, on my 1943 Fazakerly are faint. Guess in wartime fast production trumps meticulous engraving!

It is a very tidy piece, showing no sign of being worked over with steel wool or other materials. I will be able to research it further once the 'Waiting period' is over and I can bring it home.

There are many possible explainations for it's appearence; none of which freely spring to my mind at the moment.


I think Simon Lawrance at Lawrance in Sydney has 'Singer' sights. Nice one mate.

I will be contacting Lawerence as soon as I have some more spare $$$ for a 'Singer'. I believe several other sources may have them in stock also.

The sight pictured above is from a No. 5 Mk I Carbine which NEEDS a LOT of work like a new barrel to get it back to shooting condition. Some bubba cut the cone off the flash hider as well so I'm after one of those as well. Again Lawerence has them in stock unused.

I may be investing in a set of barrel vices and spanners to remove barrels etc from rubbish (Bubba'd) rifles the local dealer gets as trades. That way I won't have to go through the registration process for the bits and pieces. Just have to work out a suitable agreement with him.

He use to have a set but sold them some time ago.

John.

[Bigjohn]

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/No4MkIaction.jpg
Some years back I bought this rifle from the same shop, previous owner complete but with one big problem.
A previous owner had managed to bulge the barrel about midway between breech and muzzle. Then they must have tried to remove anything material the faulty projectile left behind and ruin the rest of the barrel.
I am currently seeking a replacement barrel and also one of the reasons I need a set of barrel clamps/vices. Since the other rifle came up I am rethinking what may happen to this rifle.

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/John7591/No5MkIaction.jpg
Some years back I bought this rifle from the same shop and previous owner complete but with two big problems.
A previous owner had cut the cone off the flash hider and fired some ex-mil ammo with proper cleaning. the rifling at the breech end appears reasonable but at the muzzle a close examination gets a picture simular to a moonscape.

Another project for restoration or transformation; again a second reason for a set of barrel clamps etc.

Ideas from the members?

John

[quasi]

are those Singer sights that are marked to 800 yards for a #5? I think the sight on my jungle carbine is only marked to 800.

[Bigjohn]

are those Singer sights that are marked to 800 yards for a #5? I think the sight on my jungle carbine is only marked to 800.

Yes they are and that includes the Mk III sight in the pictures with the broken catch. That one was on the No. 4 Action pictured; I think that rifle was a 'bitza' (bits of this and bits of that).

My research has shown that they were given a slightly different identification numbering system.

John.

[skeet1]

Bigjohn,
Does the "B" on your Singer sight stand for BSA? Last year I bought a 1950 Longbranch at the Tulsa Wanamacher Gun Show and it had the MkIV sight on it. I found a Singer and installed it and all is well. The singer I got is also marked"B".

Skeet1

[Frank46]

BigJohn, local gun show here in louisiana had exactly ONE 303 longbranch for sale. Dealer wanted $300 USD for it. Unfortunatly didn't have the cash or would have bought it. The longbranch markings were lightly stamped and didn't show up to the naked eye under the crappy lighting. Wonder if longbranch used different types of markings over the period of time that they made the #4 MK1?. Regards,Frank

[Bigjohn]

Bigjohn,
Does the "B" on your Singer sight stand for BSA? Last year I bought a 1950 Longbranch at the Tulsa Wanamacher Gun Show and it had the MkIV sight on it. I found a Singer and installed it and all is well. The singer I got is also marked"B".

Skeet1

The "B" stands for something else other than BSA, I had the answer at my finger tips just recently but can not recall it right now.
One difference between the sights is the "B" models are normally only marked out to 800.

I will research them again and get back to you when I relocate the info.

John

[Bigjohn]

BigJohn, local gun show here in louisiana had exactly ONE 303 longbranch for sale. Dealer wanted $300 USD for it. Unfortunatly didn't have the cash or would have bought it. The longbranch markings were lightly stamped and didn't show up to the naked eye under the crappy lighting. Wonder if longbranch used different types of markings over the period of time that they made the #4 MK1?. Regards,Frank

If the rifle was in good or better condition; you have missed a great buy, pity but cash storages seem to affect us all at sometime or another. And usually when the rifle you NEED TO OWN is up for sale.

As for the lighter action markings; there is possibly a thousand reasons for it; including wartime expediency. Saving every second in the time it took to produce a rifle was the name of the game. Get the Troops the things they need to fight the battles.

John.

[Frank46]

BigJohn, well money is in short supply now. Just cost $68 bucks to fill up the tank on the truck and it was only 3/4 empty. Normally only fill when 1/2 a tank but suffered a brain fart and let it get too low. Didn't get to check the bore out on the longbranch but from outside appearances it was in very nice shape and bolt and receiver numbers matched. Regards,Frank

[WILCO]

cash storages seem to affect us all at sometime or another. And usually when the rifle you NEED TO OWN is up for sale.


Ain't that the truth!!:mrgreen: I'm forever living within my means. :roll:

[Bigjohn]

BigJohn, well money is in short supply now. Just cost $68 bucks to fill up the tank on the truck and it was only 3/4 empty. Normally only fill when 1/2 a tank but suffered a brain fart and let it get too low. Didn't get to check the bore out on the longbranch but from outside appearances it was in very nice shape and bolt and receiver numbers matched. Regards,Frank

I know exactly how it is. I let the tank slip to about a quarter full a couple of weeks back; $90.00 AUD to fill it back to full. Normally, try to use only a half tank per week, that gives me 200-270 kilometres.
I am cutting back on many things at present to reclaim or redistribute the available funds to those things which are important, like eating for one.

One good thing about firearms is; I could always put meat on the table if need be.

Skeet 1; I have re-researched the sights. Ian Skennerton who is recognised as the local expert on the LEE ENFIELD and had access to the pattern rooms in England for his research; basically says that only SINGER and some overseas (US/CAN.) manufacturers produced the Mk I sight.

BSA did however have a hand in designing and producing the Mk III and Mk IV pressed metal versions of the 'SINGER'.

A personal note; The SINGER's I have seen marked with the "B" are only graduated to 800; this may be a way of indicating the difference in model.

There was also produced in Canada a version of the MkIV sight called the 'C Mk IV', this was different to the normal Mk IV in that the rear aperture and pivot point were milled and the rails and elevating aperture were pressed metal. Virtually a composite type of construction.

John.

[Bigjohn]

As I was into some further research on the sights, I came across an interesting statement regarding the Mk II flip type double apeture rear sight.

There is one apeture on each leg of the rear sight; naturally the long leg is for 600 yards and the short one for 300yards.

The comment I read says the 300 yards apeture has been set for use WITH the bayonet attached to the barrel while the 600 yard apeture is for use with the bayonet dettached.

Any comments or observations?

John.

[robertbank]

One of my relatives spent time visiting North Africa, Italy and North West Europe during the 40's. Claims he never did get to flip up his sight on his #4 rifle. Things were pretty much up close and personal for most of his visit. The bayonet didn't get much use during his stay, unlike my Grand Dad who found it quite usefull during his European visit 30 years earlier.

Take Care

Bob

[skeet1]

Bigjohn,

Thanks for the information of the Singer sights. This may be a stupid question but what was Singer? Is this the sewing machine company or what were they? During WWII companys like Smith Corona, Rock ola and Inland were making rifles in this country, is this the same with Singer?

Skeet1

[felix]

Yes, a sewing machine company. If you can make sewing machines, you can make guns with little or no machine shop changes. In fact, one of the deals made with Italy, Japan, and maybe Germany too, was that they could make sewing machines exclusively for the world market for 20 years without competition from any other country. The USA gave funds to stateside typewriter/sewing companies to use their equipment for other stuff. For example, Singer got into electronics big time, and joined Link Corporation to make flight simulators for the airplanes made both for military and civilian. I had the pleasure to fly a 747 before any TWA pilot ever did, while the simulator for it was being checked out. I knew the programmer in KC from Singer (Link, really) who was in charge of TWA's installation. ... felix

[Bigjohn]

[smilie=w:

It's here, at home, now the fun part begins. :cbpour:

:Fire:

John.

[Bigjohn]

Now that the excitement has settled down.

I've inspected the bore and it appears to be badly fouled with copper; the worst I have seen. It needs a scrub.

Well, the oportunity to have a shot presented itself, so, made up a quick batch of loads.

Winchester .303" Cases new; Winchester Large Rifle Primers; 13.0 grains REDDOT; LYMAN 314299, ACWW GC & sized .314"

At 90 metres these rounds printed a group 1" high by 1.25" wide rear sight set on the 300 yards setting. Group was centred approximately 8" to the left.

I will do more work with this after I clean the barrel properly.

John.

[Boz330]

That doesn't sound like a bad start. One of the electronic bore cleaners is the way to go for the copper fouling if you've never used one. Not much elbow grease involved at all. Good luck.

Bob