Sizing rifle brass without expander for cast boolits then noe expander will this work

[bzajdek]

I was wondering if I would benefit from expanding 30-30, 7.7 arisaka, and 7.62x54R as a second step like pistol brass. These shoot boolits a lot fatter than the expander in the full length sizing die. I think I may have read that some cocentricity issues come from the expander pulling in a different direction when the brass is in the full length sizing die and doing a 2 step may be beneficial. I don't have a lot of brass in these calibers so it would not be much extra work.

[scottfire1957]

Ummm. Try it and see if it works, report back?

To quote Animal House: Grab a brew; don't cost nuthin.

[243winxb]

Lyman "M" die will open the case mouth after sizing.

[Green Frog]

I've never understood why anyone would want to try to size brass down then expand it back up with the same die. It just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Also, sizing the neck of your rifle brass back up just means you squeezed it down too small... you still aren't belling the case mouth, which is what you want for cast bullets to avoid shaving lead. My strategy? Use a FL sizing die to either size only or at most decap and resize, don't try to expand with that same die. JMHO based on 40 years of reloading... YMMV!

Froggie

[ShooterAZ]

The Lyman M die works well, but the Lee Universal Expander die will do the trick also. Don't overthink it, just open up the case mouth until the gas check just barely goes ALL the way into the case mouth. Most seating dies will close the bell back up nicely after seating, if it doesn't the Lee FCD with a very light "kiss crimp" will do it too.

[rockshooter]

I agree with Froggie. It also makes brass conversion much easier. When I tired the usual way with .223 to 300 Blk, I ruined a few necks- then I started belling with an "m" die for 30 cal and life became much better. Loren

[243winxb]

I've never understood why anyone would want to try to size brass down then expand it back up with the same die. It just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Also, sizing the neck of your rifle brass back up just means you squeezed it down too small... you still aren't belling the case mouth, which is what you want for cast bullets to avoid shaving lead. My strategy? Use a FL sizing die to either size only or at most decap and resize, don't try to expand with that same die. JMHO based on 40 years of reloading... YMMV!

Froggie Bushing dies will size the neck without over doing it. But will still need the step the M die forms. No crimp is needed to remove step after seating the bullets.

[W.R.Buchanan]

If you used a smaller decapping pin holder instead of an on caliber sized one, you wouldn't be expanding the case after sizing it. Like a 7MM decapper instead of a .30 cal one.

However you are still going to size it back up with the NOE tool.

It is really 6 of one,,,,

The Lee Collet Neck Sizing Dies squish the neck of the case down onto a mandrel that also acts as a decapper. And that mandrel can be changed out to whatever size you want by getting that different size from Lee.

Thus you would be only sizing in one direction. However you also won't be setting the shoulder of the case back.

OK on cartridges like .303 British where you are shooting them in a bolt gun. May be a problem in a levergun.

Randy

[stubbicatt]

You can definitely do it the way you describe, OP. For a comparatively small outlay of treasure you can have a custom FL die made to fit your chamber by CH Tool and Die.

[Scharfschuetze]

Bushing dies will size the neck without over doing it. But will still need the step the M die forms. No crimp is needed to remove step after seating the bullets.

I also try and size my cases to the smallest extent possible which generally means neck sizing only with the Redding or custom made bushing dies. With a spread of several bushings of different diameters, I can NS most of my calibres with only a few actual die bodies. Examples: 30 Rem, 30/30, 32 Special with one die body. 270, 30/06, 35 Whalen with one die body and the 243, 308, 7.65 Mauser, 7.7 Jap with a third die body. Case length and diameter determines which die body to use.

As noted above, once sized minimally, a slight bell is usually needed to ease seating the boolit without damage to it.


but the Lee Universal Expander die

This is a good die for belling a case, but mine has no ability at all to expand a neck. I think that it was improperly named by Lee. Should have been called a "Beller" and not an "Expander." Misnamed or not, it does bell cases from .22 through .45 well via two different cones, one small to medium and one for medium to large diameter necks.

When I need to expand, I use either the Lyman M Die or the RCBS expanding die. Personally I prefer the RCBS, but the M Die works a treat too. I have several custom made expanding plugs for them so that I can refine my loads for individual rifle needs or various boolit diameters.

[stubbicatt]

BACo make a number of expander plugs which will help you in tailoring your case neck diameter for proper bullet pull and easy seating of cast bullets. They are not expensive either. The work with a RCBS expander die. I like them. They are 2 step plugs, one for the inside diameter of the neck to expand to provide just enough neck tension, the second step to open the case mouth to readily accept the case bullet without shaving.

[Scharfschuetze]

Here are links to Buffalo Arms and NOE for expanding plugs:

Buffalo (BACO): http://www.buffaloarms.com/.291_.329_custom_expanders_pr-4165.aspx

Buffalo plugs use either the M Die or the RCBS die.

NOE: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=88&osCsid=nlpr4k0phn09vnpc90mrh65377

NOE plugs turn the Lee Expanding Die into a true expanding die and not just a belling die.

[lobogunleather]

Started using the Lyman M-die over 30 years ago. All of my sizing dies have the expander button removed. The M-die is much more precise and much easier on the case mouths.

[leadman]

I have tried this and it works on some cases, some not. Depends on how far down the sizing die takes the case. If to small of an opening the Lyman M die would not enter it, the NOE is a little different so you are going to have to try it.
The ideal situation would be a die that took it down to the size to hold the boolit so all you had to do was expand the mouth to prevent lead shaving when seating. An oversize mandrel for a Lee collett die would be able to do this.

[dtknowles]

Bushing dies will size the neck without over doing it. But will still need the step the M die forms. No crimp is needed to remove step after seating the bullets.

I think this is a better approach and do it for my .30 BR but I don't have bushing dies for many calibers.

Tim

[Andy]

I feel like I can get a regular expander to *usually* seat a bullet without shaving lead, but can never get that same expander to ensure a lead bullet is seated evenly in the case or prevent lube smearing up during seating. Once I got an M die correctly adjusted the bullets seated great, no lube smear ever and I made sure to buy them for all cartridges I have and life is a lot easier now.

I was advised to adjust the M die until the gc portion of a rifle bullet just barely can be hand fitted inside the case (on a sized gc bullet) and this seems to be perfect advise in my opinion. Offers just enough expansion for loading convenience without over expanding.

To answer your question: I feel you would benefit greatly from a 2 step expander die like an M die or the noe offerings for rifle just as much as you do with pistol. I feel like loading rifle or pistol is frustrating without them and easy/rewarding with them so they are an automatic add-on purchase to any new die set I buy now.

FYI the hornady "cowboy" brown-box dies have an M-type expander included in them that works great, just like the m die, good savings overall to buy that if you have a caliber it is offered in. I know this doesn't apply to your question on rifle chamberings but wanted to offer it as general info.

[bzajdek]

Great i will make this my new approach for cast boolits but not for j words.
Would trim length be affected by this new approach? Meaning if i trim before expanding would this make the brass length come up short, or if i trim after expanding how would this affect the brass trim to lenght?

[Scharfschuetze]

Once you trim your brass to minimum, you'll find that cast boolit load pressures are not inclined to stretch the brass and also that by not pulling a factory expander back through your neck you will also minimize case stretch. To use a tired and overused phrase: It's a win win situation for you.

[Andy]

You should not trim after expanding with the M die (or any other expander I would imagine) as you will be removing the part you just expanded if much trimming is necessary.

[Doc Highwall]

Answer to your question is YES! I like others here have say for a 30 caliber die use a 7mm expander ball to hold the decapping pin so the die only sizes down the case with no neck expansion. Then I use a separate die like a Lyman M-die to not only expand the case neck I.D., but to slightly bell the case mouth at the same time.

The NOE expander dies will work for you.

[bzajdek]

Great so I will trim after firing and before sizing.
I need to perform a pound casting on these rifles. I was wondering what to subtract so the boolit will release in the chamber. Then there is also spring back.
Just for example if the throat is .316 what would you size them at. I read if there is no space the pressure will spike and velocity will be erratic because space is needed to release the boolit consistently. And the thickness of the brass will need to be taken into account, correct?
thanks
ben