W748 vs. IMR4350

[JSnover]

I'm using up a forgotten stash of 165gr FMJ and have gotten good results with 4350 but 748 shows up more often in my manuals.
Anybody notice an advantage in their 30-06? Mine is a Remington 700. I don't need to keep any 748 on hand but my LGS has some. If it's noticeably better I might grab a pound or three.
Posting the same question in the Military Rifles section regarding my FAL.

[dragon813gt]

All I used for years was W748. It was the only rifle powder I kept on hand. Burnt up a lot of it in 308 and 300 Savage. Was always able to find an accurate load in a reasonable amount of time. It's still the powder I start w/. I can't speak specifically to it's use in a FAL but it works from 223 up until the bigger magnums.

[JSnover]

Thanks. Looks like I'll have to try some, since there's a little bit of empty space in my reloading room.

[Scharfschuetze]

I've always thought of 748 as a medium speed powder akin to 4895 and 4350 as the fastest of the slow burning powders.

In your Model 700, I believe that 4350 would be the powder to use for highest velocities. I use a lot of 748 in the 308 and 223, but I've never used it in the Ought Six. I took a look through my loading manuals and it was interesting to note, that I couldn't find any 748 data for the Ought Six (with one exception) in the Lyman, Hornady, Speer or Pet Loads manuals. The one exception was the Hornady manual #7 loads for the M1 Garand. There are 748 loads listed there, but they are below what your Model 700 can use safely when compared to 4350.

748 measures quite well with good consistency and would probably work quite well with your 165 grain FMJs, although about 200 fps slower than 4350. Start low at about 43 grains with a max load at 48 grains for 2,700 fps per the M1 Garand section of the Hornady number 7 manual. 748 might require the purpose made Winchester LR primer or magnum primers from other manufacturers. Testing over a chronograph will sort out which primer brand/style works best with the Olin/Winchester Ball Powder.

[JSnover]

Thanks Scharfschuetze. 4350 shot very well but the Redding measure didn't like it at all.

[hutch18414]

44.2 grs under 175 gr SMK with CCI BR2 primers in my grandsons 10 twist Model 700 AAC has proven to be extremely accurate, measures well also.

[Clay M]

My .30/06 Ruger #1 likes IMR 4350 with 150 gr bullets, and IMR 4831 with the 165.
I have tried a good many other powders including W760 ,but have not tried 748.

[lotech]

I wasn't aware there was a lot of data for 748 with 165 gr. bullets in the .30-06. Might get better accuracy and velocity with the more suitable (for .30-06) 4350, but if you have 748 it would be worth trying.

[JSnover]

I wasn't aware there was a lot of data for 748 with 165 gr. bullets in the .30-06. Might get better accuracy and velocity with the more suitable (for .30-06) 4350, but if you have 748 it would be worth trying.
Yeah, there's not much of it so I decided to ask why. I'll give it a try but probably will save the 748 for my FAL.
The 700 shoots great with 54gr of 4350 in LC72 brass.

[Lloyd Smale]

4350 is hard to beat in an o6. Personaly I use a lot of ball powder but about all of it in rounds I load progressively like the 223 an 308.

[Clay M]

One thing I will point out if you use the Hornady manual. The max .30/06 load for 150 gr bullets and IMR 4350 was over maximum in my rifle . I worked it up and got flattened primers at a half a grain under maximum.

I got best accuracy with about a grain under their maximum charge listed..

[fryboy]

748 is much akin to h335 (-ish ) while 760/h414 are a ball equivalent of 4350 ,the 06 usually prefers the slower powders,if it was in a 308 based case I'd pick the faster for the lighter projectiles and the slower for heavier ones

[Clay M]

I have read that W748 and BL C-2 are very close.

[tbierley]

I tried W748 in 30/06 years ago for my 1903 and my M1. I found using magnum primers worked for me because in a large case I found it to temp sensitive to cold. But in 308 or 7.62x51 it works perfect because of case size. Has anyone had this problem.

[birddog]

760 would be better suited to the 168 j-pill than 748, 4350 seems a touch slow maybe.
Charlie

[Clay M]

I tried W748 in 30/06 years ago for my 1903 and my M1. I found using magnum primers worked for me because in a large case I found it to temp sensitive to cold. But in 308 or 7.62x51 it works perfect because of case size. Has anyone had this problem.

748 is definitely better suited for the .308 because of case capacity and burn rate.
The slow burning, case filling powders have given me the best accuracy in the .30/06

Cast bullets are a different situation.
I would probably try Rel 7, SR4759 or IMR 4198

Enjoy your .30/06.
It was my favorite hunting rifle caliber as a young fellow, and now that I am old I have come full circle back to it.

[tbierley]

I just finished install a 308 barrel on a old rack grade from CMP. My 200-300 loads are 150gr FMJ and 47grs of W748 shoots good and good clean up.

[Scharfschuetze]

I just finished install a 308 barrel on a old rack grade from CMP. My 200-300 loads are 150gr FMJ and 47grs of W748 shoots good and good clean up.

Yep, 748 and the 308 Winchester go together like peas and carrots.

I checked my Ought-Six 4350 data and found the following for the 168 grain Sierra Matchking. The data is from a Pre 64 Winchester Model 70 match rifle. It's on its second barrel and this barrel was set back a few years ago three threads to get past a burned out throat. It's worn and not quite as accurate anymore, but it is sufficient for most purposes.

168 grain SMK with an OAL 3.345"
WW cases (uniformed)
Federal 215 magnum primer
56 grains of Hodgdon's 4350 powder

Average for 10 shots: 2740 fps - Extreme Spread: 62 - Sd: 19

Consider this a bolt action load only and please work up if you duplicate it.

Accuracy is right at 1 MOA for 10 shot groups and it holds the 10 ring with lots of Xs when fired from the prone with a sling in competition at 600 yards.

These are 100 yard groups from chronograph testing.

[Clay M]

The H4350 is one of Hodgdons new extreme powders so perhaps I would do better to switch to that. I grew up using many pounds of IMR 4350 so that is what I currently have.

[Scharfschuetze]

I'd just work up with what you have. In the end you'll probably get similar performance, but perhaps with a grain or so difference due to the powder and perhaps a bit of difference due to the rifles.

It's amazing that the various loading manuals usually give a pretty good idea of what will happen in your rifle. I'm usually within 75 fps of the book's velocity... but not always.

[leadman]

Alliant RL17 is very close to 4350 and have used both in my Encore 16" 243 Win barrel. RL17 measures very well and has a muzzle blast that is much less pronounced.

[JSnover]

Yep, 748 and the 308 Winchester go together like peas and carrots.

168 grain SMK with an OAL 3.345"
WW cases (uniformed)
Federal 215 magnum primer
56 grains of Hodgdon's 4350 powder

Average for 10 shots: 2740 fps - Extreme Spread: 62 - Sd: 19

Consider this a bolt action load only and please work up if you duplicate it.

Accuracy is right at 1 MOA for 10 shot groups and it holds the 10 ring with lots of Xs when fired from the prone with a sling in competition at 600 yards.

These are 100 yard groups from chronograph testing.
Nice work, and thank you for the load data.
Initial results are pleasing, to say the least!
COAL 3.320
LC72 brass
54 gr of IMR4350
CCI 200 primer

100 yards from a rest:
164757(that's a quarter, the temperature dropped about 15 degrees by the time I wrapped up, so the pic came out a little blurry)
Thanks again, everyone for your advice and suggested loads.

[Clay M]

I am surprised they used magnum primers. I rarely ever do unless I am shooting belted magnums.
Even with the maximum load of IMR 4831 in the .30/06, I just use standard Fed 210 match primers as Hornady recommends.
Accuracy is excellent.

[Scharfschuetze]

Nice JS! Looks like you've got a winner there.


I am surprised they used magnum primers. I rarely ever do unless I am shooting belted magnums.
Even with the maximum load of IMR 4831 in the .30/06, I just use standard Fed 210 match primers as Hornady recommends.
Accuracy is excellent.

Interesting isn't it. I developed the load for 600 yard match shooting and I spent a good deal of time with various components, the chronograph and recording results at long range. I was surprised that the Federal LR match primer didn't win out as it is THE primer of choice for my 7.62 and Ought-Six service rifle loads using either of the 4895s. In the end, the Federal 215 was the most consistent performer at 500 and 600 yards with H 4350 in the Ought-Six.

[Clay M]

Nice JS! Looks like you've got a winner there.



Interesting isn't it. I developed the load for 600 yard match shooting and I spent a good deal of time with various components, the chronograph and recording results at long range. I was surprised that the Federal LR match primer didn't win out as it is THE primer of choice for my 7.62 and Ought-Six service rifle loads using either of the 4895s. In the end, the Federal 215 was the most consistent performer at 500 and 600 yards with H 4350 in the Ought-Six.

Very interesting and great information.
Long range shooting tells the story with the load development.

Changing just the primer can make a good bit of difference with some loads.

We are testing most of our .308 and .223 loads at two hundred yards.
We also have a six hundred yard range we will be using soon.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have read that W748 and BL C-2 are very close.

Same powder, same bottles, different label. Call Hodgdons. Many powders are packaged under both brand names with different designations.

Randy

[Outpost75]

I do not recommend 748 in the .30-'06, period.

Listed charges leave too much airspace in the case, which spells trouble with spheroidal powders.
Difficult to obtain acceptable ballistic uniformity and even with 150-grain bullets loading density is only about 80%.

760 is more suitable, but only for boltguns, slower powders like 760 and 4350 will bend operating rods if used in the Garand.

[Clay M]

Same powder, same bottles, different label. Call Hodgdons. Many powders are packaged under both brand names with different designations.

Randy

A lot of powders I wonder about like Ram Shot TAC and H4895 are they the same.
What about VIT 140 and REL 15.

But yeah I agree with the above, I would not use 748 in an '06

[W.R.Buchanan]

Clay You would have to call and ask them for a list of the crossover powders. There is about 10-12 of them that Hodgdons sells under both names.

A list has been posted here before but I don't know where it is . There is probably an updated version anyway.

Randy