Can someone explain NOE expander plugs and dimensions?

[bedbugbilly]

O.K. I think I'm having a "senior moment" here and just need a quick explanation of the NOE expander plugs.

I know "what" they are and how they work in the Lee universal expander (flaring) die - but I can't find an explanation on the site as far as what the listing indicates or which to order for what size boolit.

Example - In the Rifle expander plug section . . . .

one that is listed is the ".311 X .307 Exp. Plug". What does the first number indicate and what does the second number indicate?

All I use is cast. As an example, I am getting started in 30-30 but with the molds I have, I think one will drop at .311 but the other at .309. I'd like to load "as dropped or "as sized" - still playing with them so it could be that they would end up being sized .309, .310 or .311.

If I were going to use a boolit sized at .309 (plain based or gas checked) . . . which expander plug would I want to order to insure correct neck tension?

I may have missed an explanation on Al's site but I couldn't find one when I looked several times. I have not seen one of his expanding plugs - are they the same profile as a Lyman "stepped" M die expander or a different profile?

Thanks in advance if someone can explain - greatly appreciated. At the price they are, I figured I would pick up several different sizes to have on hand for various boolit diameters for the 30-30 and also for my 8mm Mauser. I have several different boolits I use for that - two at .323 and one at .325.

Thanks!

[kungfustyle]

The .311 is what they will flair the neck to and the .307 is for the neck tension. So if you have a .310 sized bullet it will flair the neck to start the bullet to .311 but with the .307 will maintain uniform neck tension once you seat the bullet.

[MarkP]

It is a stepped diameter, not sure show if a picture would show it. Mine are colored with brass and may show up in a picture. I will try it and post if it diameters are visible in the picture.

[William Yanda]

The .311 is what they will flair the neck to and the .307 is for the neck tension. So if you have a .310 sized bullet it will flair the neck to start the bullet to .311 but with the .307 will maintain uniform neck tension once you seat the bullet.

Thanks, I needed that, just hadn't asked.

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you -appreciate the information and that clears it up. Now to order some from Al!

Jim

[RogerDat]

Thanks for the reminder. I need to order a few of these along with a mold once the NOE group buy mold(s) start coming out again.

[blueeyephil]

A little more help on this subject if you please. I am looking at going with the NOE expander plugs for cast bullets in a couple of calibers. Primarly 30 cal. 30/30 and 300 BLK. I will shoot in different guns and will slug each barrel. I also have a variety of bullets. Some I cast, some purchased. Some with/without gas checks. And some with/without powder coating and purchased with Hi-tech coating. Don't think that makes any real difference, but just in case it does.

So lets say my theoretical bullet for a given gun comes to .310. I know I want some bell/flair greater than that, but what about the neck size? .314 x .310 or do I want it .001 or so smaller? Using .313 x .309 or even .312 x .308? I don't want lead shaving or deformation of the bullet. Also I plan on seating and crimping in separate steps. Lee factory crimp for a light crimp.

I'll end up buying a couple of sizes but want to use them correctly and not need one I don't have. I hate to pay extra shipping.

[RogerDat]

A little more help on this subject if you please. I am looking at going with the NOE expander plugs for cast bullets in a couple of calibers. Primarly 30 cal. 30/30 and 300 BLK. I will shoot in different guns and will slug each barrel. I also have a variety of bullets. Some I cast, some purchased. Some with/without gas checks. And some with/without powder coating and purchased with Hi-tech coating. Don't think that makes any real difference, but just in case it does.

So lets say my theoretical bullet for a given gun comes to .310. I know I want some bell/flair greater than that, but what about the neck size? .314 x .310 or do I want it .001 or so smaller? Using .313 x .309 or even .312 x .308? I don't want lead shaving or deformation of the bullet. Also I plan on seating and crimping in separate steps. Lee factory crimp for a light crimp.

I'll end up buying a couple of sizes but want to use them correctly and not need one I don't have. I hate to pay extra shipping.

Not an expert by any means so I'm just giving an answer I think applies.

Shaving is handled by flaring just the very edge of the case, the expander is stepped up at the top to handle that task. The larger number is the flare size. Once the bullet fits past that top edge there is no edge for it to "shave" off a sliver.

The smaller dimension is the neck size portion of the expander plug and any deformation is totally dependent on bullet size being too large or case too small. This dimension is intended to be 1 or 2 thousandths under the actual size of the bullet. Based on reports from other members if the bullet is much more than .002 over the inside dimension of the case things get squished or cases bulge and there is no gain in grip from tighter case because the brass just gets stretched.

For cast lead bullets if you size bullet to .309 then you want a neck size of .308 or at a minimum a size of .307 I think you have to know your bullet size and buy the expander based on that. I would guess that jacketed store bought would be a different (likely smaller) size than cast lead. And while one can use bullets as cast from some molds (especially tumble lube) you would need to measure to know the "as cast" size in order to get expander that would be snug without being too small.

For what it is worth I seem to see improved accuracy from sized revolver bullets that I would have normally just tumble lubed and sized for plinking. On rifle I swear I can feel the bullet seating force become more uniform with sized bullets and those NOE expander plugs. Just ordered some for pistol (revolver & lever gun) calibers.

The normal Lee flaring tool or powder through expander prevents shaving by flaring the edge of the case but the NOE expander gives you consistent tension on the bullet by allowing you to size the ID of the case to the OD you size your bullets. I think there is a bit of a taper to the flaring which should also aid bullet seating plumb and centered in case.

[edctexas]

I did find some documentation drawings on Al's site. I wish he listed them all and showed the dimensioned drawings there. If I can find my electronic copy, I'll try to get them posted here.

Ed C

[iMigraine]

Been searching to see if I got this correctly. My cast boolit diameter is .3577. Which works in my 9mms and .357 Mag revolver. So the NOE 38PEXP (.360 x .356) external plug for Lee Universal Case Expander should flare open the brass cases to .360 and hold the tension at .356? My bores are at .355 by the way.

Also, reading on the rifle expanding plugs. NOE recommends going .001+ over the size of your casted bullet for best fit.

[Charlie Horse]

Been searching to see if I got this correctly. My cast boolit diameter is .3577. Which works in my 9mms and .357 Mag revolver. So the NOE 38PEXP (.360 x .356) external plug for Lee Universal Case Expander should flare open the brass cases to .360 and hold the tension at .356? My bores are at .355 by the way.

Also, reading on the rifle expanding plugs. NOE recommends going .001+ over the size of your casted bullet for best fit.

This post confused me. If you go over bullet diameter by .001 how would you have any neck tension?

[Conditor22]

I know what they say about sizes, I like to go with the smaller size (neck expandiner size) the same size as the boolit I am using because the brass springs back between .001 - .0015" after sizing. I don't want the neck too small so it won't squeeze down the boolit

[44magLeo]

When NOE recommends going over by .001+ they are talking about the larger diameter of the expander plug. This allows the boolet to start easily into the case without shaving the boolit.
In the example given, .360 x .356. If you boolit is .359 this expander is .001 over boolit diameter. This will give you .003 of neck tension.
Using the same plug with a boolit of .357, you have .003 over size with .001 neck tension.
If I were to use this expander I would use it with a .358 boolit. his gives me the .002 neck tension I like and .002 over boolit diameter lets me easily star the boolit in the neck.
I think in most situations your boolit diameter should be half way between the two plug diameters.
This seems to work very well for me. There may be situations where you might want more or less neck tension. If so buy the expander plug that gives you the neck tension you require.
Leo

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I use the first larger number matched to my boolit size. These expanders start out at the smaller diameter and step up to accept your boolit diameter. Finally there is another step that does a small flare. Your boolits will slip down into the case nice and straight with these. So they actually do three things if I'm not mistaken. Establish proper neck tension, create a short guide for the boolit and lastly add a flare. I'm soaking in the tub so I can't look at one just to be sure. I find a stock expander works fine with .44 cal boolits but i used the NOE for 9 mm, .38 and .30 caliber. Now i'm using Lee's powder through expanders for handgun calibers. A must have for rifle loading imho.

Be nice if NOE made these for Lee's powder through dies. Maybe that new CNC lathe they got will turn the trick.

[Sideswipe]

Good thread, hope I'm not too late to get some answers! I've used NOE expanders a little (35 Rem, 7.62X39) and the've worked fine. I just got one for my 30-30 (30 WCF). My cast bullets are sized to .310". My new NOE expander is .311 x .307. The .307 gives me the .003" neck tension & the .311 gives me .001" to start the base of the bullet. Everything great so far....BTW my cases are trimmed to the recommended 2.030".

I began setting up the expander in the Lee expander die & slowly adjusting how deep the NOE expander entered the cleaned & sized cartridge mouth. Everything was going fine. Took my time w/tiny depth adjustments. Finally reached where the .311 shoulder on the die began to enlarge the cartridge mouth. I slowly went deeper in gradual steps. After each adjustment I pulled the case out of my press & chked how one of my bullets set in the expanded mouth. I could see clearly the mark the .311 shoulder made as it went deeper & deeper into the case mouth (that had just been expanded to .307"). All is well. I finally reached the point where the base of the bullet was nesting nicely & I congratulated myself on a job well done.

Just for the heck of it, I got out my ball gage to measure the newly sized case. Sure enough it was right on at .307". THEN the problem was discovered! I slowly pushed the ball gage to the end of the neck (obviously a bottle-neck cartridge on the 30-30) expecting the gage to get to the end of the neck & try to fall into the body of the casing. Noooo! I got a tiny shoulder at the bottom of the expanded neck!

What do I do? I know when seating the bullet I can force the bullet past that little restriction but wouldn't that cancel all the attempts to do an accurate job of bullet seating & neck tension? I deliberately continued to adjust the expander die deeper until the little shoulder was gone, but now the flare on the mouth of the case looked like a trombone! Any suggestions are more than welcome. Thanks Bruce

[megasupermagnum]

Good thread, hope I'm not too late to get some answers! I've used NOE expanders a little (35 Rem, 7.62X39) and the've worked fine. I just got one for my 30-30 (30 WCF). My cast bullets are sized to .310". My new NOE expander is .311 x .307. The .307 gives me the .003" neck tension & the .311 gives me .001" to start the base of the bullet. Everything great so far....BTW my cases are trimmed to the recommended 2.030".

I began setting up the expander in the Lee expander die & slowly adjusting how deep the NOE expander entered the cleaned & sized cartridge mouth. Everything was going fine. Took my time w/tiny depth adjustments. Finally reached where the .311 shoulder on the die began to enlarge the cartridge mouth. I slowly went deeper in gradual steps. After each adjustment I pulled the case out of my press & chked how one of my bullets set in the expanded mouth. I could see clearly the mark the .311 shoulder made as it went deeper & deeper into the case mouth (that had just been expanded to .307"). All is well. I finally reached the point where the base of the bullet was nesting nicely & I congratulated myself on a job well done.

Just for the heck of it, I got out my ball gage to measure the newly sized case. Sure enough it was right on at .307". THEN the problem was discovered! I slowly pushed the ball gage to the end of the neck (obviously a bottle-neck cartridge on the 30-30) expecting the gage to get to the end of the neck & try to fall into the body of the casing. Noooo! I got a tiny shoulder at the bottom of the expanded neck!

What do I do? I know when seating the bullet I can force the bullet past that little restriction but wouldn't that cancel all the attempts to do an accurate job of bullet seating & neck tension? I deliberately continued to adjust the expander die deeper until the little shoulder was gone, but now the flare on the mouth of the case looked like a trombone! Any suggestions are more than welcome. Thanks Bruce

I'll let you in on a secret that nobody likes to hear. NOE's expander plug design is not good at all. I still use them, but they don't work alone, and I always modify them slightly from how they come, mainly polishing them. The only way I get them to work is to run the NOE plug in first, then as a second step run either a Lee expander (just a tapered plug), or a Lee powder through die to actually flare the case. NOE's stepped design does not work. I've been using them for years, and I'll continue to use them, but if the new Lee plugs actually try to fix the problems NOE chooses to ignore, I'll dump them in an instant.

Sorry for the rant. Simply run some kind of actual expander die in after you already ran an NOE plug through. It will fix all your problems.

[Sideswipe]

Thanks for the speedy reply mega, you nailed it. Before spotting your reply I went back down to the shop & got out out my RCBS Cowboy 30-30 die set. The expander miced out at .307 just like the NOE. I did just what you said, ran the Cowboy expander die, carefully, thru the NOE expanded case neck & it got rid of the shoulder at the btm of the neck! Only reason I'm trying the NOE is because the Cowboy for whatever reason didn't leave a step (flare) that the bullet sat steady in. I think that a 1-2 punch of NOE & Cowboy followup will do the job....'til I find something else to fuss about. Reloading is never boring. Thanks Again! Bruce

[JimB..]

Sideswipe, I’m curious where the bump went. Did you push it to the outside of the shoulder, lengthen the case, or something else? The brass didn’t get more dense, so the material had to go somewhere.

[gloob]

Doubt Sideswipe will be heard from, anytime soon. This is from months ago, and he has only 3 posts.

Yes this is a necrothread, but I like to reply to this one.


I'll let you in on a secret that nobody likes to hear. NOE's expander plug design is not good at all. I still use them, but they don't work alone, and I always modify them slightly from how they come, mainly polishing them. The only way I get them to work is to run the NOE plug in first, then as a second step run either a Lee expander (just a tapered plug), or a Lee powder through die to actually flare the case. NOE's stepped design does not work. I've been using them for years, and I'll continue to use them, but if the new Lee plugs actually try to fix the problems NOE chooses to ignore, I'll dump them in an instant.

Sorry for the rant. Simply run some kind of actual expander die in after you already ran an NOE plug through. It will fix all your problems.

NOE plugs work, but their recommendation is wrong. The numbers represent the diameter of the plug, itself. If you use a "1 over" on the larger number, you would be using a 359 x 355 for a 358 bullet. After you pull the 359 step out of the case, the case mouth will close back down to 357. Of course that would likely shave and/or tilt your bullet as you tried to seat it. The rest of the seating area will potentially close back down to 353 if your sizing die is tight and/or your brass is thick enough. That would be 5 thous smaller than the bullet!

For 358, I use a 362 x 358. Smallest you can go and have no shavings (without chamfering the mouths) is going to be 3 over, or 361 x 357. You could actually use a 363 x 359 and still get decent neck tension on a 358 bullet, but 362 x 358 will give full tension.

Note, I dunno if they actually make all of these sizes.

Don't confuse seating force with neck tension. If you use an expander that is smaller than the bullet, you will have to push harder to seat the bullet. But as long as the expander ends at or before where the bottom of the bullet seats, the bullet won't be more resistant to setback. The extra force of seating is because you are opening up the underexpanded case with the bullet, finishing what the expander only started.

[nanuk]

I think Gloob nailed it

use the smaller number, and size 0.001" OVER your boolit diameter, and you have adequate neck tension

too bad NOE has nothing on their site showing the diameters, and best practices

there are MANY out there making videos who think the smaller number is the LENGTH!!!

imagine that!

[Chill Wills]

I think Gloob nailed it

use the smaller number, and size 0.001" OVER your boolit diameter, and you have adequate neck tension

too bad NOE has nothing on their site showing the diameters, and best practices

there are MANY out there making videos who think the smaller number is the LENGTH!!!

imagine that!

Here is the picture of the ones I make.

[Tom Myers]

I think Gloob nailed it

use the smaller number, and size 0.001" OVER your boolit diameter, and you have adequate neck tension

too bad NOE has nothing on their site showing the diameters, and best practices

there are MANY out there making videos who think the smaller number is the LENGTH!!!

imagine that!

Most of the Expander Die Sets that N.O.E. lists have a small image of a cutaway of the set with the case and expander shown. It is not really clear that what needs to be done is to click on the image and then clidk on the magnifying glass icon to expand the image. Some of the images have the expander die shown separately and clearly marked .

Hope this helps.
[click on the images below to expand]
325051 (https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/powder-through-expanders/rifle-powder-through-expanders/309-rifle-expanders/30-30-wfc-powder-through-expander-kit/) 325050

[popper]

IIRC NOE 30/30 expander is not long enough to expand all the neck. I use a lyman 311 M expander, it's longer. The stepped expanders give a large flare to the mouth and the STOP step is sometimes hard to find when expanding - requires a very careful set-up of the die.

[Tom Myers]

IIRC NOE 30/30 expander is not long enough to expand all the neck. I use a lyman 311 M expander, it's longer. The stepped expanders give a large flare to the mouth and the STOP step is sometimes hard to find when expanding - requires a very careful set-up of the die.

Some of the early expanders that are not Powder through expanders may be a little short, but the latest Powder through expanders were all designed from the SAAMI Cartridge Neck Dimensions.
Each SAAMI Cartridge expander is offered with a specific expander that is tailored to the SAAMI neck dimensions and the expanders are designed so that, even if the top step expander is not utilized, the expander will still reach throught the length of the cartridge neck.

Also, the image that accompanies each catalog offering displays a specific amount of turns up from contact with the shell plate that will place the expander just short of entering the flare portion of the expander. The die can then be incremented down until the desired amount of flare is achieved.

Hope this helps.

[click on image to view larger image]
325068 325069

[nanuk]

Very helpful

Thank you Mr. Myers

[Bazoo]

I had a .312×.308 expander that was not sufficient in length to expand a 30-30 case neck to the shoulder even when I used the maximum amount of step. I purchased it about 4 years ago; a solid expander. Not sure If I still have it or if I passed it on, I'll have to check.

Are the new ones longer?

I use NOE expanders in pistol calibers without issue.

[Tom Myers]

I had a .312×.308 expander that was not sufficient in length to expand a 30-30 case neck to the shoulder even when I used the maximum amount of step. I purchased it about 4 years ago; a solid expander. Not sure If I still have it or if I passed it on, I'll have to check.

Are the new ones longer?

I use NOE expanders in pistol calibers without issue.The

The new Powder throught Expanders are each long enought to reach the full length of a SAAMI spec Case neck in that specific caliber.