Greek Mannlicher-Schonour

[richhodg66]

I'm sure I misspelled it, but one showed up in a local shop, decently sporterized with good after market sights and a Fajen stock. Bore was great.

No en bloc clips which I believe are required to make the magazine work. It so happens I have a set of dies, and I also have 6.5 molds as I have a sporterized Swede I've about given up on ever shooting cast well.

What's a rifle like this worth? How hard to find brass? How hard to find the clips? IS the twist in these more cast friendly than the Swedes seem to be? They are asking $249.99, but don't know much about it and the clips and hard to find ammo are bargaining points.

[gnoahhh]

If it's a M1903 Greek Mannlicher-Schoenauer (and it probably is) then it doesn't utilize clips to make the magazine work. The magazine is a rotary design much like our Savages, Rich. Just pop 'em in one at a time.

What's it worth? Depends on how well the sporterization work was done. I've seen them turned into beautiful sporters that rival the products of Steyr themselves. I've seen junkers hacked together by Bubba in his basement too. If it's solid and presentable and, and if it has a nice bore ( a lot of them are like sewer pipes) I would drop that much money on it- but that's a lot of ifs. Bare actions have traded for $200 in my recent memory, because like I said they can be the basis for sweet little sporters. I don't know offhand what the rate of twist is in the original barrels, but I'll bet it's fairly fast because the original military load was a long RN bullet much like the Swede's.

I saw one once that was done up in a British stalking rifle style and it was a sweetheart.

[NuJudge]

I have a Greek 1903 Mannlicher-Schoenaur, and it does take chargers. Chargers for the Czech Vz52 are identical. They work well. They should not be hard to find. Brass is around, but one does have to look for it, and it will not be cheap. I am still reloading Berdan primed FN-made Greek surplus brass, but have some Boxer primed brass.

There are other 6.5mm Mannlicher rifles, particularly the Romanian and Dutch rifles, but their cartridge is rimmed.

[gnoahhh]

What I meant was, clips aren't necessary for the gun to function as a repeater. I guess if one is caught in a zombie apocalypse or had to fight off hordes of rampaging antelopes, a quick reload using charging clips to fill the magazine would be a good thing. :)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'm sure I misspelled it, but one showed up in a local shop, decently sporterized with good after market sights and a Fajen stock. Bore was great.

No en bloc clips which I believe are required to make the magazine work. It so happens I have a set of dies, and I also have 6.5 molds as I have a sporterized Swede I've about given up on ever shooting cast well.

What's a rifle like this worth? How hard to find brass? How hard to find the clips? IS the twist in these more cast friendly than the Swedes seem to be? They are asking $249.99, but don't know much about it and the clips and hard to find ammo are bargaining points.

Here is my Westley Richards sporting rifle, based on the Greek-type action:

164435164436164437

As you will see there is a charger guide, but it needn't be used, and under a scope it probably couldn't. The magazine is a delight, being removable simply by poking a bullet nose into the hole and rotating the floorplate, and can then be dismantled without tools. A Fajen stock could probably be slimmed down to some advantage for a rifle of this type, but you should watch the thickness of the wood over the magazine. I have never seen a Mannlicher-Schoenauer of 9mm. or larger which didn't have cracking there, but I've never seen a 6.5 x 54 which did.

The mention of en bloc clips, though, introduces the possibility that you have a rifle of the Dutch or Romanian model for the rimmed 6.5x53R. These rifles are very similar and just about as usable, but you do need the en bloc clips which fit inside the magazine (another beautiful piece of machining, and a useful palm-rest), to fall out when the last round is fired. This is the one that was very much favoured as a target rifle in the UK. possibly because the thickness of wood around the magazine well makes the woodwork more stable.

Even in the UK I got Norma brass without difficulty, and it is about as good as deer cartridges get. It isn't quite true that it must have round-nosed 160gr. bullets to match the throat. This picture shows the 160gr. Hornady and a commercial clone of the 130gr. Swedish military bullet, in a caliper set to land diameter. The bullets hit rifling after virtually the same amount of movement.

164439

You will find it spelt Schönauer, Schonauer or Schoenauer, the last being an alternative for the German o with the umlaut accent, and the most commonly used. It isn't mere pedantry if you want to do internet searches. It sounds like a good price for even the reversible kind of bubba job, i.e. without functional impairment which prevents better sporterization. So far as I know they were all made up to the quality of the sporting rifles.

It isn't the easiest of rifles to scope, but various makers produced mounts, side-mounted but with the scope over the bore. You might need to have the bolt handle forged or replaced (butter-knife?) by welding if you want the scope as low as it otherwise can be. Mine has a 1950s Bausch and Lomb sporting scope without internal adjustment, in a Mannlicher-Schoenauer mount which was marketed both as Kuharsky and under Bausch and Lomb's own name. It seems a good compromise, in keeping with my 1926 rifle and up to modern optical standards. You can also switch one scope between rifles with their own adjusted mounts. No prizes for guessing why that idea vanished from the marketplace! These can sometimes be found on eBay, but won't be cheap.

The military trigger is pretty good as they go, and plenty of sporting rifles, especially British ones, were the same. But there was a double set trigger which substituted for the complete Mannlicher trigger guard. These do appear on eBay occasionally, at very fancy prices. I have a double shotgun-style trigger guard casting from Track of the Wolf which I will thread into the double set trigger plate if I ever get around to making my own.

The first orders were Austrian-made, but many of the Mannlicher-Schoenauers now on the market are marked Breda, which means Italian. But exactly what this means is lost in politics. It has been suggested that they were made entirely or partly from parts captured in or immediately after the First World War. But it seems just as likely that parts or complete rifles were made in Austria, and this was a stratagem to get around restrictions on trading with the former enemy. The quality is fine.

It won't do a thing for you that an investment cast and CNC machined Remington can't. But you will enjoy it more.

[richhodg66]

Here is my Westley Richards sporting rifle, based on the Greek-type action:

164435164436164437

As you will see there is a charger guide, but it needn't be used, and under a scope it probably couldn't. The magazine is a delight, being removable simply by poking a bullet nose into the hole and rotating the floorplate, and can then be dismantled without tools. A Fajen stock could probably be slimmed down to some advantage for a rifle of this type, but you should watch the thickness of the wood over the magazine. I have never seen a Mannlicher-Schoenauer of 9mm. or larger which didn't have cracking there, but I've never seen a 6.5 x 54 which did.

The mention of en bloc clips, though, introduces the possibility that you have a rifle of the Dutch or Romanian model for the rimmed 6.5x53R. These rifles are very similar and just about as usable, but you do need the en bloc clips which fit inside the magazine (another beautiful piece of machining, and a useful palm-rest), to fall out when the last round is fired. This is the one that was very much favoured as a target rifle in the UK. possibly because the thickness of wood around the magazine well makes the woodwork more stable.

Even in the UK I got Norma brass without difficulty, and it is about as good as deer cartridges get. It isn't quite true that it must have round-nosed 160gr. bullets to match the throat. This picture shows the 160gr. Hornady and a commercial clone of the 130gr. Swedish military bullet, in a caliper set to land diameter. The bullets hit rifling after virtually the same amount of movement.

164439

You will find it spelt Schönauer, Schonauer or Schoenauer, the last being an alternative for the German o with the umlaut accent, and the most commonly used. It isn't mere pedantry if you want to do internet searches. It sounds like a good price for even the reversible kind of bubba job, i.e. without functional impairment which prevents better sporterization. So far as I know they were all made up to the quality of the sporting rifles.

It isn't the easiest of rifles to scope, but various makers produced mounts, side-mounted but with the scope over the bore. You might need to have the bolt handle forged or replaced (butter-knife?) by welding if you want the scope as low as it otherwise can be. Mine has a 1950s Bausch and Lomb sporting scope without internal adjustment, in a Mannlicher-Schoenauer mount which was marketed both as Kuharsky and under Bausch and Lomb's own name. It seems a good compromise, in keeping with my 1926 rifle and up to modern optical standards. You can also switch one scope between rifles with their own adjusted mounts. No prizes for guessing why that idea vanished from the marketplace! These can sometimes be found on eBay, but won't be cheap.

The military trigger is pretty good as they go, and plenty of sporting rifles, especially British ones, were the same. But there was a double set trigger which substituted for the complete Mannlicher trigger guard. These do appear on eBay occasionally, at very fancy prices. I have a double shotgun-style trigger guard casting from Track of the Wolf which I will thread into the double set trigger plate if I ever get around to making my own.

The first orders were Austrian-made, but many of the Mannlicher-Schoenauers now on the market are marked Breda, which means Italian. But exactly what this means is lost in politics. It has been suggested that they were made entirely or partly from parts captured in or immediately after the First World War. But it seems just as likely that parts or complete rifles were made in Austria, and this was a stratagem to get around restrictions on trading with the former enemy. The quality is fine.

It won't do a thing for you that an investment cast and CNC machined Remington can't. But you will enjoy it more.

It looks like that, I guess I need to go back and look closer atthe magazine. Most of the marking were hard to read after it had been sporterized, "Steyer" was still plain. The magazine didn't look rotary, but it may have been.

I'll try to go back Monday and look at it. Here lately, I've been frustrated with the accuracy of this Swede, but I just received a different mold for it to try. We'll see, I doubt that rifle is going anywhere quick.

[Frank46]

Check Grafs website. I seem to remember that they offered the 6.5 MS either in loaded ammo or just the cases. Count yourself lucky as most of the 6.5 MS rifles and carbines that I have seen had anything but badly pitted barrels. The rotating magazine will easily work with the 160 grain Hornady round nosed bullets as the cartridge was designed using the 160 grain round nosed soft point bullet. Frank

[richhodg66]

I'm intrigued by the rotary magazine. I hope it'll feed something besides 160 grain RN if I get it, I don't shoot much of anything that doesn't shoot cast anymore.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'm intrigued by the rotary magazine.


It should be enough to intrigue anybody, for it is one of the most beautiful pieces of machining I have seen on any firearm. I don't think it is at all critical about the length or shape of bullet it will feed, and it is rather good at stopping them from being slammed forward under recoil, without great spring tension to prevent it - rather like a little shaped magazine follower for every bullet, all the time.

With a 7.8in. twist, it isn't the easiest of rifles to use with cast bullets, but it does permit bullets with a long bearing surface. Lyman do a mould for the Swedish Mauser which looks interesting, but I like the look of NEI's 264-160-GC.

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html

[richhodg66]

For use in the swede, I got an RCBS 140 grain flat nose (very small flat) which I thought would work great, but so far, the Lyman 140 grain bullets Bruce Drake sent me to try worked better. I know after reading some past threads that the 6.5x55 is a difficult thing to get to shoot well with cast, maybe the 6.5x54 MS won't be as bad.

[richhodg66]

OK, just read your post closer, do the ones with rotary magazines have the floor plate more or less flush with the bottom of the stock? This one did not, the magazine extended belwo a bit (the "useful as a palm rest" comment made me think). I actually got there just as that pawn shop was closing and they had already closed up the rifle cabinet, but the young clerk who seemed eager to make a sale mentioned what had recently come in and said he had a "Steyer" and didn't know much about it but was willing to open it back up for me. When I first saw the rifle, it looked like a Carcano from across the counter.

I'm beginning to think this is a Dutch or Romanian one. Still might make a neat toy for me. The guy who did it did a decent sporterizing job, not fancy, but certainly not bubbaed either. Nice, handy configured rifle.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It is indeed flush, and rather wide, with a hole where you use a pointed object to release the catch and let it rotate for removal. The Dutch and Romanian model (nearly but not quite identical) have that protruding magazine, as do others such as the Austro-Hungarian straight pull M95. It is another beautiful machining job, and should remind us that whatever the collection of things that made the Empire quite unfit to fight the First World War against major or even minor powers, it wasn't any deficiency in arms manufacture.

The Dutch and Romanian turnbolt rifle (the other M95 and I think M93 respectively) is another that makes an excellent sporting rifle. The only snag is that the clips are hard to get, and may be expensive. I got a shock when I looked on eBay, as the only one was in Australia at $22.55, but they are currently on the Gunparts website, classified not under "Mannlicher" but under "Dutch", at $4.40.

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/Dutch-33214/Mannlicher1895-36072.htm?page=3

You might want to check that that is really current stock, before buying the rifle. Cases will never be a problem, as they are easily made from .303, probably in just the FL size die, although use of the seater die first, without seating stem, may help. Oh and by the way, the name of the factory is Steyr. Not to be pedantic about spelling, you understand, but you might be doing internet searches for things.

WDM Bell the ivory hunter favoured the box-magazine 6.5mm. for camp meat, and the Mannlicher-Schoenauer for some of his 1011 elephant, but that was only because he had soft-point 6.5x5R ammunition. Here is a group made with a 6.5mm. Mannlicher by St. John Littledale, the explorer of central Asia. The publication date of Fremante's "Book of the Rifle" in which I found it means that it must have been the box-magazine model rather than the Mannlicher-Schoenauer. It might, I suppose, have been a heavy-barrelled target rifle rather than the one he travelled with. Jeff Cooper used to quote Littledale's Tajik guide as saying of his Mannlicher "To think, even the man who made this must die!" Well so he has, but the rifles live on.

164613

[richhodg66]

This one said "Steyer" on the side of the receiver, seems most pics of Dutch ones I see say "Hembrug". Would this indicate this one is a Romanian one?

This is kind of funny, 25 years ago, I ran into another guy who was relatively new to my unit while I was shooting at the Rod and Gun club at Fort Bliss. He had one of these and had just finished shooting up the small amount of milsurp ammo he had for it. I was intrigued and was just beginning to get serious about handloading, so I grabbed a couple of spent cases from him and looked into what it took to make ammo.

As luck would have it, I happen to own 6.5x54 MS dies (estate sale find years ago) and 7.65 Argentine dies with a file trim die. Of course, I have .303 dies. I'm thinking I have the necessary wherewithal to make this work should I get this, minus the en bloc clips.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

This one said "Steyer" on the side of the receiver, seems most pics of Dutch ones I see say "Hembrug". Would this indicate this one is a Romanian one?

This is kind of funny, 25 years ago, I ran into another guy who was relatively new to my unit while I was shooting at the Rod and Gun club at Fort Bliss. He had one of these and had just finished shooting up the small amount of milsurp ammo he had for it. I was intrigued and was just beginning to get serious about handloading, so I grabbed a couple of spent cases from him and looked into what it took to make ammo.

As luck would have it, I happen to own 6.5x54 MS dies (estate sale find years ago) and 7.65 Argentine dies with a file trim die. Of course, I have .303 dies. I'm thinking I have the necessary wherewithal to make this work should I get this, minus the en bloc clips.

"Steyr" is definitely the spelling used on most of their rifles, including the original order of Dutch Mannlichers, which came from Austria. After about ten years the Dutch manufactured it under licence at the Hembrug arsenal, with no difference in quality that I know of. I don't believe Romania ever made their own, but it is just possible that the other spelling was used on their rifles. Maybe the one-syllable "Steyr" is a very rude word in Romanian.

Here is a drawing which shows the difference between some of the Dutch and Romanian bolt parts.


164657

[gnoahhh]

Very well put. I'm starting to think Rich may be looking at an early Dutch rifle. Truth be told, I would gladly take on a Greek or Dutch Mannlicher as the basis for a neat classy project, but only, as I said before, if the bore condition warranted it.

[richhodg66]

The bore was definitely good on this one and was decently sporterized, though rather plain. It did have a butter knife handle on it. Not even sure it was the original military barrel, but I think it was.

I need this project like a hole in the head, but I'm intrigued by it. Pretty sure I could make ammo for it with stuff I already have. En bloc clips would be the only thing. Also, I don't shoot open sights real well, especially with a short sight radius like that. What would it take to mount some kind of peep sight on the cocking piece kind of like that Lyman sight on my Savage 1920?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I would recommend a new cocking piece, if you plan on modifying the old one. They are apparently available from Gunparts for the Dutch version, and I don't know about interchangeablity with the Romanian rifles, but I would guess that it is. The problem is getting an adjustable sight low and light enough. I wonder if something could be done with the L-shaped turnover leaf for two ranges, from the M16 sight.

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/Dutch-33214/Mannlicher1895-36072.htm

Then there is the horizontal arm and screw from the Parker-Hale 16 sight, which appears fairly frequently on eBay, but is likely to be expensive. It would have to fit behind the existing cocking-piece, but you could always try epoxying it if you can make a sort of saddle closely fitting the metal.

164715

I believe there was a Lyman or Ideal sight of similar conformation, made to fit the m1903 sporting Mannlicher-Schoenauer, and quite possibly the box-magazine version. The horizontal arm was displaced by the opening bolt, and possibly replaced on its return. But these are few and far between, and likely to be very expensive if you do find one. Finally my Mannlicher-Schoenauer was a takedown version, with the complete barreled action locking onto a permanently fitted tang on top of the grip. Someone had fitted an ordinary but original Lyman tang sight, which unfortunately the previous owner kept, as I would have loved to have it for something else.

Unfortunately the Mannlichers don't have a non-rotating bolt shroud or plug like some rifles, which could be a better way of attaching a sight. Here is what I did (on a Gunparts spare bolt plug) for my Swiss 1889. It could be silver soldered without risking the hardness of the cocking notch, and the weight doesn't slow the lock time from very slow to very very slow. For the latter reason, a sight would be better fitted to the receiver if you can find a way.

Some gunsmiths welded on butterknife bolt handles, but it might be that a Romanian cavalry carbine was built with one. (I know the Dutch ones had round knobs like the rifle.) Still, it is possible that you have a rifle built for sporting purposes from the start. It ought to show up in the absence of military markings, though I don't know what they were in Romania's case. I have a butterknife lever on my Mannlicher-Schoenauer, and it is all very well if you have one, but doesn't offer the slightest practical advantage. When the Mannlicher-Schoenauer became available it was often used for the higher grade sporters, and the box-magazine version for plainer utility rifles. But there were exceptions. In the Army and Navy Cooperative Society catalogue for 1907 the plain quality rifles were £6 10 shillings and £9 respectively. But the best quality box-magazine one was £15 10 shillings, or £2 more if regulated to 1200 yards. The best Mannlicher-Schoenauer was £11 10 shillings, or £12 10 shillings with the Baillie-Grohman peepsight.

[richhodg66]

Tomorrow I should get loose from work early enough to make it back to that shop before closing and take another look at it. I have about convinced myself to try to do some trading for it.

[gnoahhh]

Any chance you can grab a pic of it and post it here before committing to buying it, Rich?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Any chance you can grab a pic of it and post it here before committing to buying it, Rich?

Or after. Another interesting mark you might find, if it is was built for commercial sale, is the date of manufacture. I don't know when Steyr started doing this, but they were doing it in the 1920s.

[richhodg66]

Haven't comitted, yet, but did go back and look at it and talk to the young fella who showed it to me before. As it turns out, they had a plastic bag with an even dozen of the en bloc clips all of which looked new, so that will sweeten the deal considerably.

There are few markings on the rifle. It says "Steyr 1901" on the receiver, there's a serial number on the front top of the receiver that matches a serial number on the barrel. Also a serial number on the bolt which does not match. The action is very slick and smooth. Bluing is a bit worn, and the bore is not perfect, I could see some slight freckling just forward of the throat, but it is still very good and I have no doubt would shoot cast well.

I tried to be honest without being insulting to them that the rifle was going to be a difficult sell for them. There is literally, no sporting ammo available and anybody except a serious reloading nerd like me is never gonna be able to shoot it. They agreed, no high pressure selling or anything.

Unfortunately, I forgot a camera and also my reading glasses (it was hell trying to look for markings, getting old sucks). I'm gonna mull it over a while. I was contemplating while driving home that I might try to make about five rounds of brass, make up some dummy rounds and go try to see if they would feed and chamber in the rifle. For all my reloading experience, I've never had to do any radical case forming, basically just making .22 Highpower brass from .25-35 and .32-40 brass from .32 Winchester Specials. Nothing like what it's going to take for this.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Forgetting the camera wasn't bad, as photographing it might have given the impression of excessive eagerness for a valuable antique. When you get it home - I'm sorry, I meant if you get it home - photographs of markings can be sharpened up by wiping talcum powder into them. Those clips are a big advantage, and unlike some others, I believe they do last.

The conversion from .303 isn't really any more complex than the ones you have done. In some rifles the .303 case head will be slightly too large for the 6.5x53R chamber. But this is no big deal. Just use a powerful reloading press till you encounter excessive resistance from the beginning of the solid head. I'd then turn the head down with a lathe and home-made mandrel, but you can get by without. Case reduction with a fine file is normally most unwise, but not this time, and you will only have to do it once. A mandrel to fit neck and flash-hole for a slow-speed electric screwdriver would help, but an electric drill will vibrate too much, because the armature is never perfectly balanced, causing you to file oval.

There is some disagreement in texts about the neck diameter of the rimless Mannlicher-Schoenauer round, but my modern Norma brass measures .287in. externally and .262in. internally before loading, suggesting .289in. when loaded with a .264 bullet. This corresponds pretty well with the .287in. cartridge neck diameter listed by Barnes in "Cartridges of the World". I have hunted in vain for a 6.5x53R inert round I have somewhere but the sources are about in agreement, from .295 to .297in. So I think people who say the cartridges are identical except for the rim. and even give the larger diameter in print for the MS round, are mistaken.

This doesn't mean you can't load good, accurate ammunition with your 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer dies. The expander button will take care of a case neck that has been sized smaller than it needs to be. But that much working of the brass may reduce brass life- not catastrophically, but a bit. You would probably be better off with real 6.5x5.5R dies, from RCBS or CH4D. I've found Dave Davison of CH4D extremely helpful with inquiries.

https://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/caliber-list?page=6

[Frank46]

Lyman did make a model 36 sight for the 1888 comission mauser and the mannlicher schoenaur rifles. It either replaced the bolt stop or the bolt stop was modified to accept the sight. The top part of the sight was designed to swivel when contacted by the bolt in either direction. Expensive today as they ain't making them anymore and have not done so for years. Classy sight though. Frank

[richhodg66]

Thanks for that info. I'll try to see if I can come up with a picture of one later.

[EDG]

Here are photos of a Dutch M95 Mannlicher M1895 after it was restocked and a Lyman 36 receiver sight was added.

They make very handsome rifles.

165156

165157

Here is the story and some loading data.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/classics/mannlicher-1895/classic_mannlicher.html



Making the cases is not difficult but it requires a few steps. You should only start with new American brass that is .450 to .452 at the head. Both Remington and Winchester will work very well. I have also used Federal and Hornady Frontier.
Do not use imported brass such as PPU or others with a .454 or larger head. I am not saying you cannot make it work but it adds work and the brass will probably not be as good if you have to cut the head down. Find a supply of junk brass or low price multi fired brass for developing your process because you will probably kill 10 to 30 cases fine tuning the process so you get 100% good cases when you form the new brass.

Here is how I do it.

The 6.5X53R Dutch round is very close to the 6.5X54 Mannlicher Schoenauer round but not exactly the same. There are subtle differences as well as the obvious rim on the Dutch version. The Dutch round has a larger radius at the corner of the shoulder and the corner of the neck. It also has a large radius cut on the case head leaving it with a slight dome. I believe this dome improves feeding through the clips. I use .303 cases without adding this radius.



The Dutch round is about .005 larger in the head at about .450" dia.

If you understand how to set the shoulder with the Carcano dies, a Lee 6.5 Carcano die set is probably the least expensive set to modify. RCBS dies are very good and will require the least amount of polishing. An older set of Bonanza 6.5X54 dies is probably the best die set if you like the BR type seater. The FL die needs polishing out of the base but the seater will work as is. To use MS or Carcano dies you need to polish out the rear half of the FL sizer die about .003 to .005 to about .452 to .453. The seater will work without any polishing.
Use care to set the shoulder location properly with either set of dies. Naturally with the Carcano dies you can set the shoulder back way too far. The Carcano headspace to the shoulder is about .017 shorter than the Mannlichers. You can start off with a .020 feeler gage to get an inital setting if needed.

Due to the larger case heads I cannot recommend the use of .303 PPU brass or older Norma brass. The PPU brass normally measures .454 to .455 diameter across the head which is larger than the rear of the 6.5X53R Dutch chambers.



Instead use US made brass of your own choosing. They all seem to have a .450 to .452 head diameter which will just barely fit the Dutch chambers. Those are Federal, Winchester, Remington and Hornady. Do not use once fired .303 Brit brass for shooting brass. Once fired is ok for setting up the process but do not shoot it.



I use the following process to form brass.


1. Inspect the brass carefully. Any dented or out of round case mouths have to be rounded up or corrected so they do not fold or crease. Round them up with an .308 or .312 expander ball. Any dented case shoulders or bodies will crease when formed. Start only with new perfect brass. NO once fired and NO dented cases.

2. Lightly lube the necks and push the shoulder back using a die with a .315 to .320 neck diameter.
I use a RCBS 7.35 Carcano FL die because it controls shoulder bulging. A .308 Win. die will also do this unless you use one of the short body Lee dies. Lee dies tend to scratch the brass with the edges of the vent hole.

3. Next push the shoulder back with a die having about a .300 to .305 neck inside diameter. For this I have a 6.5 Carcano file trim die. You could use a 7mm 08 die also.

4. Next I use a 6.5X53R Dutch file trim die with a .290 neck diameter. (The 6.5X53R file trim die #4 will actually permit the round to chamber but the neck is still over size.) If you do not have this die you might cut off a 6.5X55 die. I have also used a 250 Savage trim die (.284) which will only work for the first forming with the smaller .303 shoulder. (The RCBS .250 trim die is .010 larger than a RCBS .250 Savage FL die so do not use a .250 Savage FL die)

5. Next I use a 6.5X53R FL die by RCBS. If I am only interested in neck sizing I size only the neck with a 6.5X55 die.


Pick your own place in the process to cut the extra long neck off. I usually do it after die #4.

6. Here is a tip to get you shooting at minimum cost if you happen to have the dies. Form 1, 2 and 3 as above. At #4 use a RCBS .250 Savage trim die for the final shoulder push back. This works because the .303 case is smaller at the shoulder than the .250 Savage shoulder. Trim the brass to length and make the final adjustment so it will chamber. Then you can neck size and seat with a set of 6.5X55 dies if you already have them. Otherwise you will be buying a set of MS dies or Carcano dies unless you want to lay down some real dear green stuff for a set of 6.5X53R dies.

You might also explore cutting off a 6.5X55 FL die to bump the shoulder position after your cases have been fire formed. This die might be used in lieu of the polished out MS or Carcano die. Just remember it is too big to size the head of the cases.





I have measured the chambers in 4 different Dutch barrels. They are about 2.150" long maximum. Standard trim recommendation is 2.110 (= 53.6mm).
The following is NOT recommended practice but it is what I do. Since the .303 case is a little skinnier than the 6.5 Dutch it will shorten slightly when fire formed.

For the first firing I trim my brass to 2.148 to 2.149. This is practically touching the step at the end of the chamber. Most fired cases come out at 2.145 but they vary a little. Once I resize them, I trim all to 2.145 and use them at that length. Due to variations in how the body is formed the case will get about .005 shorter when fired. The Lee-Enfield case shape is a good bit skinnier than a 6.5X53R.
I have made many small batches of cases using this method with Federal, Remington and Winchester cases. Though most were once fired in .303 Lee-Enfield rifle I have to discourage you from using the once fired brass. US made brass fired in Lee-Enfields is permanently damaged. Don't use it, the cases are stretched at the web and could separate. Making the 6.5X53R brass is too much work to waste on used brass. Always start with new brass.
Used cases can serve a very useful purpose though. Use once fired brass to set up and perfect your processes. Once you can yield 100% good cases with each small lot switch over to your new brass for your actual shooting cases. BTW don't bother with .30-40 Krag brass. The rim is too large and you might break your extractor unless you cut it to the same size as the .303 brass.

[richhodg66]

Wow, thanks for the detailed post.

Still haven't committed to buying the rifle, but am getting closer. I really don't think it's going anywhere soon. I have all 6.5x54 MS dies and also 7.65 Argentine dies with a trim die. I also have 7mm-08 and .250 Savage dies around here. If I get the rifle, first order of business will be to get some new .303 brass.

That's a nice looking rifle, by the way, the one in question is much plainer, but looks to have exactly that same set of open sights on it, Lyman if I recall. Thanks for the picture of the peep sight. When I asked the story on it, I could have guessed; it was grandpa's rifle, he passed and grand kids needed beer money. What a shame, wish these old rifles could talk and tell their stories sometimes. I bet it hasn't been shot in 50 years or more.

[Harry O]

I don't want to rain on anyones parade, but if it is marked "Steyr 1901", it is not a Greek Mannlicher-Schoenauer (1903 model). The Greek Mannlicher was the basis of the later commercial Mannlicher rifles/carbines. I have a copy of a magazine article somewhere on converting the Greek Mannlicher to match the commercial models. Since they had a lot of parts in common, it was not that difficult. However, I have looked at 4 or 5 Greek Mannlichers in my lifetime and every one was a dog. They did not store them well. On the other hand, every one of the dozen & a half or so Commercial Mannlichers I have looked at was in very good to excellent condition. I know nothing at all about the Steyr 1901.

I have two of the 1910 Mannlicher-Schoenauer 9,5x57MS calibers. One has an original Lyman No. 36 sight. The other one is a replica that was made by PME (Precision Metalsmithing Enterprises). They are both very expensive, almost impossible to find, and intricate sights. There are no holes to be drilled in the MS to mount them. They completely replace the bolt release and act as the bolt release afterward.

[richhodg66]

Yeah, we determined it was Dutch or Romanian about three posts into this when rotary magazines were mentioned, but thanks for the input. I fixed the thread title to avoid any further confusion.