I want to know the who, what, where, when and why of a Gunsmithing Lathe

[waarp8nt]

The title says it all, but I want to explain with a little back story.

I currently own a South Bend 9" lathe. I have some experience working with a metal lathe, wood lathe, router tables, milling machines, brake lathe and valve grinding machines from both work and at home as a hobby. I know that I can read blueprints, measure things and do minor work with a good deal of accuracy. I have not worked on CNC machines, I am not FFL licensed and do not intend to work for others at this time. I do, however, want to be able to work on my own stuff and leaning mostly toward muzzeloading work for myself.

I want a bigger lathe. Something I can chuck a barrel through the center of the headstock or mount between centers as needed. A friend had a South Bend heavy 10, but the 13 inch looks nice as well. Clausing made or makes a 12 inch, but the Atlas part of Atlas/Clausing turns me away unless some can speak up. Leblond...I have not been around one since shop days in high school.

I am looking for advice from an experienced machinist or gunsmith about what route to take. I will have to sell off a few things to finance the project, so I am willing to go all in at this point with a budget of more than 2k, but less than 5k. From looking online, I am certain I can find a quality used product in that price range. I prefer used, in fact, the old quality made in USA equipment for many reasons.

Suggestions anyone?

[dtknowles]

There is a 20 foot Leblond on the shop floor outside my office at work, I have never seen anyone use it :-)

Tim

[Zaneiel]

Allot of gunsmith lathes are around 10 or 12 swing with 36" between centers. 1.5" through hole should accommodate but as you well know most barrels aren't that large.
I have had good luck as well as lots of enjoyment working with the old south bend Lathes you can't go wrong with those in my opinion.
Clausing seems to have many nice features as well as being another popular choice.

[country gent]

Look for a used monarch Lathe with a 1 3/8 or bigger spindle. The Atlas clausings were good machines and stable. Not as heavy as the monarchs were but a solid machine. Bridgeport romeys are decent also. A big plus is a spindle that is threaded on the back end for a spider or cheap 4 jaw chuck to hold both ends of long parts centered and true.A D series chuck mount is nice as it makes changing chucks easier and quicker. One of the most accurate lathes I used at work was a solid bed hardridge Had 1 1/2" hole thru spindle, 24" bed gear box threading variable speed spindle a quick change nose on the spindle. This lathe would turn and repeat to .0005. It also had digital read out x and y axis. Would have been nice to have a read out on tail stocks spindle also. This machine was a joy to run and seen alot of work

[Stockcarver]

Don't go too big.

There are good Taiwan made lathes. I own two of them along with a South Bend.

A note, I am a retired machinist: Had my hands on all types of lathes up to 8 foot swing by 60 feet between centers. A good machinist's lathe is not necessarily a good gunsmith's lathe!!!!

My 14x40 and a 13x36 in the photos below.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3cc03b3127ccef4b8e033f95100000030O02QZsmjZw5aA9 vPgw/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00400980642320131222201559075.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Once the lathe is purchased and operational tooling is the next step and gets expensive really fast.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5cc06b3127cceeaa3861197cf00000030O02QZsmjZw5aA9 vPgw/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00400980642320151227211110907.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5cc06b3127cceeaa21d4b763c00000030O02QZsmjZw5aA9 vPgw/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00400980642320151227211119383.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

There is a lot more in the shop, both in machinery and tooling, but I don't intend to bore those that already have the knowledge.

I have been making chips since about 1962, what you see in the photos is a lifetime collection. I had much larger machinery but sold the beasts years ago as the need to machine a 12 foot long or bigger piece of 4140 shafting went away.

Running a lathe with a monorail above it with two 5 ton hoists is not fun, it is work.

I am not a gun builder for hire, I only fool with my stuff. Although the shop is set up more or less as a custom gun shop with lots of specialized gun tooling and many chamber reamers.

Chamber reamers and pilots:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5dc34b3127ccee80a79a33b4c00000030O02QZsmjZw5aA9 vPgw/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00400980642320150216003028919.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

PM me with your questions and I will answer.

[John Taylor]

I have three lathes, two 12X36 and one gear head 14X40. Grizzly has several " gunsmith lathes" that seem to be better than Harbor freight and maybe better than Enco. My 14x40 is a Birmingham, bought about 10 years ago and it does most of my gun work. Look for at least 1.5" spindle hole and some way to mount a spider on the off end.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I also have a Birmingham (Taiwan) 14x40 gear head lathe, purchased in 1993 for $4,000 new. Oddly, it did not come with a steady rest, but it wasn't hard to get one through the same dealer. It has done everything I needed it to do for gunsmithing. What Stockcarver said about the tooling is correct--expect to spend some money on tooling as you perform various jobs you haven't tackled before. Seems like there's always one more you need and several you'd like to have!

[elk hunter]

Most of the used US made machines I've seen for sale over the years were, to put it mildly, "tired". That's why they were for sale. Yes many could be brought back to reasonable accuracy but you will need to know a whole lot about rebuilding machine tools which is a craft in it's self. Do yourself a favor and buy a new lathe. Many of the import machines are well made, accurate and down right reasonably priced. And as others have stated, expect to spend a lot of money on tooling.

[Frank46]

I agree with stock carver as buying a lathe is only the beginning as far as accessories are concerned. Tool bits, tool holders, drill bits,measuring equipment, lubricating oils for lathe,ways and threading and the list can go on from there. When I got my jet had to rent an engine hoist To lift it off the pallets onto the lathe stand. Good thing jet includes a hoisting setup with the lathe. I have accumulated much of the stuff over a period of years but still occasionally have to get something I need. I got on the MSC, starret,enco and travers tool mailing lists some years back and still enjoy getting their catalogs. Think of them as a sears "wish book". Frank

[fast ronnie]

12 to 14 swing and maybe 36" bed. Nice to be able to use collets for some smaller work. 3 jaw, 4 jaw and spider chucks for barrels. Don't buy something with a lot of wear. You CAN make parts on them, but it will take you TEN times as long to make the same part. A new Chinese lathe is better than worn-out american. I've worn out mine, but it has taken every day since 1982 to do it. Tooling is expensive. First purchase should be an aloris type tool holder. There are a couple of good Chinese made copies at half the price of Aloris. Good tooling makes the jobs much easier and faster. If you can afford it, carbide insert tooling is a big plus, but isn't a (just have to have) if it isn't in the budget. Buy quality for a lifetime, buy junk and you will be buying again.

[smokeywolf]

You can probably forget a Monarch 10EE. Decent one with the updated solid state drive is going to run close to $20K. They are the best toolroom lathe on the planet. Monarch is still in business and still builds and refurbs them. A refurb is $71K, a new one is $117K.

A Hardinge HLV is a joy to operate and with a class "A" machinist at the controls, even an old beat up one will repeat to .0002. They're not made anymore. Last ones came off Hardinge's line about 10 years ago and sold for around $51K. You're going to pay well over $10K for decent 30 to 40 year old Hardinge HLV now. An '80s model in pristine condition is a bargain at $24,000.

There are several Taiwanese and Chinese Hardinge knock-offs; "Feeler" is one, "Sharp" is another, plus a couple more. They're very good and accurate for the first 5 years. After that, you're looking at a several thousand dollar rebuild.

My lathe is a WEBB. One of the licensed Korean builds of the Japanese Mori Seiki. Just about identical to this... http://www.ebay.com/itm/WEBB-WL-435-INCH-METRIC-GEARED-HEAD-ENGINE-GAP-LATHE-Mori-Seiki-Whacheon-/162014260126?hash=item25b8cd6b9e:g:epsAAOSwu1VW8Fx Z

Given that, as several here have pointed out, you'll likely be spending another thousand dollars in tooling during your first year of ownership, not sure I'd rule out the Grizzly.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/G0709-Grizzly-14-X-40-Gunsmiths-Gearhead-Lathe-with-DRO-PROS-/182008181153?hash=item2a608871a1:g:9dAAAOSwzhVWrRw s

[waarp8nt]

What about this one (link at bottom of post). I like the idea it has a lot of the tools with it. I have not went to see it yet, but it is only about 2 hours from home, so if the ways are worn down or something else is messed up we would not have wasted too much time or money to go see it.

I understand a lathe can be an item that keeps costing you in tooling and accessories. We spent a fair amount on tooling, cutter bits and a 4 jaw to get the South Bend 9 inch up and running.

http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/tls/5460190802.html

[bob208]

you did not say how long your bed was. if it is the 4 1/2 foot long you have what you need. you can work between centers or use a steady rest. I know a gunsmith that made a living with a long bed 12" craftsman/atlas. he profiled barrels and chambered with it. he had a short 9" south bend to do small stuff on. so think about that 9" south bend you already have a lot of the tooling.

I worked in a tool and die shop and also ran a tool room for a few years. also I have my own shop. I have a 9" south bend and a 14 1/2" south bend. plus a Bridgeport clone, jones and shipmen surface grinder, 12" Vernon shaper and a horizontal mill.

[KCSO]

My 9" Southbend was a gunsmiths lathe from 1949 to 1990 and it did everything that was needed but not as easy as a bigger lathe. Be carefull what you go to as if you are use to power cross feed easy gear changes and such you wil not want a change gear lathe no matter what the headstock size. Don't worry about the rear spider you can make one easy enough. Be very careful of the imports as some have trouble holding thread tolerance. The big Smithy I had would pop open the half nuts when threading and it took a load of work to get it to cut acceptable threads. If I had it to do over I would shop around till I found a good used Southbend heavy 10 or a LeBlonde or such. My Current Grizzly works just fine but I really miss cutting threads at 28 rpm instead of the 70 that is low on the current machine. Whatever you do if you have room SAVE the Southbend as you WILL miss it.

[John Taylor]

I had a little trouble cutting threads when my Birmingham was new but it settled in and has been doing fine for the last 10 years. I use carbide a lot because I can run things five times faster with it. HSS can run 50 surface feet per minute and carbide 250 feet per minute. If your contouring a barrel you will need a steady rest and then learn how to sharpen cutting tools to keep chatter down. Yesterday I cut a 28" long 22 barrel with a taper from .750" to .580". This is where chatter can really be a problem. Using carbide inserts and grinding the cutting edge so there is no radius on the tip, then set the cutting edge at 90 degrees from the bore will give the least amount of chatter problems. Use diamond wheels for sharpening carbide, set you back another $500 for grinder and wheels.

[smokeywolf]

On the Clausing lathe, I'd keep shopping. Clausing/Clausing-Colchester made good lathes, but that likely has 100,000 hours on it and most of those hours were probably put on it by employees who had no interest in whether the lathe would still be usable next year.

I'm not a big fan of the Chinese machinery, but most hobbiests aren't going to put more than 500 hrs. per year on their lathe and those hours won't be put on it by a uncaring employee beating the lathe to death to get a part out as fast as possible.
On the other hand, if you have any ideas of making money with this lathe, try to hold out for American iron. Even if it's in need of new spindle bearings and lead screws, in the end you'll have a much better machine than a lightly used Chinese made machine.

When comparing similar machines, look at weight. Mass is an important attribute in a lathe and lack thereof is an indication that the manufacturer got cheap.

[waarp8nt]

you did not say how long your bed was. if it is the 4 1/2 foot long you have what you need. you can work between centers or use a steady rest. I know a gunsmith that made a living with a long bed 12" craftsman/atlas. he profiled barrels and chambered with it. he had a short 9" south bend to do small stuff.

My South Bend is short, I have seen a few 9 inch SBL and they were all longer. I can just barely fit a 20" barrel with just enough in the 4 jaw chuck to hold and a live center in the tail stock. There is no way I would get a 32 inch Hawken barrel to fit. I do not have a steady rest. Plus, the hole in the center is too small and will not allow a muzzleloader barrel to go through it. Those are just some of the reasons I would like to upgrade.


Whatever you do if you have room SAVE the South Bend as you WILL miss it.

I am planning on keeping the nine inch South Bend as I have plenty of room.


If your contouring a barrel you will need a steady rest and then learn how to sharpen cutting tools to keep chatter down. Yesterday I cut a 28" long 22 barrel with a taper from .750" to .580". This is where chatter can really be a problem.

Good to know. Currently I have not had much of an issue with chatter, but then about the longest items I have made was a brass punch and a new shaft for a table saw.


Use diamond wheels for sharpening carbide, set you back another $500 for grinder and wheels.

Years ago I thought I was going to buy a South Bend 13 inch lathe, a Bridgeport Mill and a Tool Grinder Machine all for $5000 cash and just about 5 miles from home. My brother in law drove me over there, after inspection and deciding I was going to buy it. While we were discussing moving it, he decided it was a show and tell session. He was an older fellow who just wanted the company of a few people visiting and didn't really want to sell...I was greatly disappointed.


On the Clausing lathe, I'd keep shopping. Clausing/Clausing-Colchester made good lathes, but that likely has 100,000 hours on it and most of those hours were probably put on it by employees who had no interest in whether the lathe would still be usable next year.

Well he never got back to me...so that one is out. I do hate driving a few hours to find something totally misrepresented. A friend once told me 9 out of 10 deals are wild goose chases...its the one that makes it all worth while.


Seeking further advise; I am currently looking on craigslist....are there any other good sites or places for lathes and/or tooling?

[gishooter]

waarp8nt and anybody else looking for the same,
I went thru the same process over 7 years ago when I started machining and setting up a shop. Took my classes at the local community college machine program. Then started hunting Craigslist everyday. Tips: Use generic search terms such as "lathe" "mill' etc. and make sure you click on the search near by tab or by zip code. Living in and around the rust belt there are good machines that come up on a regular basis. But you have to be willing to search everyday just about if you are serious. Good machines go fast. I actually made the road trip and looked at/ran a dozen different milling machines before buying. That was only after searching on craigslist for months for decent machines. Same with both of my lathes. Going thru this right now looking for a good surface grinder. You'll find a gem if you are persistent.
Type or brand that is recommended? There are as many options as there are opinions. You've received some very good advice so far. My recommendations:
Big & heavy= smooth chatter free cuts. The cut off between hobby lathes and the start of industrial quality lathes with full features start in the 11-12 inch swing. Don't be scared off by a machine that weighs several thousand pounds or more. A little hobby class 12 inch Atlas might weigh about 500 pounds with a cabinet. A Sheldon or Southbend in that size swing will weigh about 1,500. And that is what I consider a small lathe. Professional riggers that move machinery are easily found and are very reasonable. I've moved several 2,000 pound plus machines by myself and it is very doable with a hydraulic drop bed trailer, lumber, pallet jack, Johnson bar, chain binders, ratchet straps, moving skates etc. All rented at the local equipment rental store for the day. Less competition and good prices for machines that the general public deem too big or heavy. Or 3 phase motors. A good rotary phase converter or VFD takes care of your power. I have a US factory built rotary phase converter that provides power to my shop. One push button and I've got 3 phase power to run 5 machines at once.

Avoid flat belt machines- Not that they were not good in their day. But most predate WWII. So they are very worn and parts and accessories belong in a museum if you could even find them.
Get something that has at least 30 something inches between centers after you have a chuck and live center in the tailstock. A lathe that takes 5C collets is almost mandatory. A good collet chuck and good quality 5C collets are very accurate and fast to use. That and a steady rest. Try to find the original steady rest for the model lathe you are buying. You can fabricate one if necessary. A good 4 jaw chuck is also necessary.

Brands? Any US or European are good. The European stuff is harder and more expensive to get parts for. The Japanese Mori Seiki, Okumas, and Takisawas are excellent. The Korean version (Same company=Webb, Whacheon, Hwacheon) are arguably just as good. Hwacheons are still in production and the parts are supposed to fit the old Mori Seiki's. The headstocks on them are LOOONG. But there are work arounds for that. If I was buying brand new I'd probably get a Hwacheon from Greer machinery. They are in California. Used- I'd check out Interplant sales in Minnesota. They are close enough for you to check out in person. Not cheap but good. Can't vouch for anyone else close to you except for Lost Creek Machine. They buy out machine shops, schools, etc. They are reasonable for a dealer. I've bought things from them before and will do so again.
For smaller lathes the PM brand lathes are supposed to be superior to Grizzly quality wise with better customer service. Made in Taiwan. I have no experience with them but the folks at www.Hobby-Machinist (http://www.Hobby-Machinist) have a sub-forum where they sing their praises.

[gishooter]

Tooling: sign up at www.use-enco.com (http://www.use-enco.com) and get on the mailing list. Every month they have 15- 20% off with free shipping. The discount codes can also be applied to items on sale most of the time. They have a monthly sales flyer. That is the only way I buy disposable tooling like drills and end mills (ie on sale plus the discount code). The Hobby machinist website members have a sub-forum where they list the discount codes they receive. At least a few times a year Enco has a 25% or 30% discount code that is good for one day only. So it pays to have a shopping list with item numbers ready to submit when you get a good code.
Aloris or Phase II brand wedge style tool post. You'll never regret buying it. End of discussion

Steel/Aluminum/etc: Speedy metals has a online website and they ship. I also pick up from them in person as I am close to them.

Cutting tools: Check out AR Warner for US made indexable HSS and carbide. I have multiple cutting tool holders (turning, boring, threading) and inserts from them and they are outstanding. Great service and pricing. Call them up when you have your machine and their customer service folks(who are machinists) can make good recommendations for you.

[PaulG67]

If you can find a good 13 X 36 inch Clausing/Cholchester, you will have all the lathe you need for gunsmithing. I would not give mine up for anything. BUT and it's a big BUT do not pay anymore than $2250 for it, it is not worth more than that. If you have to pay more than that buy a new machine. Now as mentioned above tooling is going to cost you a bunch. Take a look at this machine from Grizzly.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/13-x-40-Gunsmith-Lathe-with-DRO/G0776?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_medium=link&utm_source=direct
Check out the features and accessories that come with it, use it as a guide for what you are looking at. Much of the accessories with this machine are things that won't come with a used machine, such as, the quick change tool post, IMO a must have. If I were looking for a machine I think this one is a good buy.

[gishooter]

Precision Mathews

http://www.machinetoolonline.com/NewlatheIndex.html

Check out the PM-1340GT. Look at the weight. Remember the heavier machines cost more to make and cut better. Give them a call. The owner usually is the one who answers the phone.

[bob208]

check on auction zip. they list real life auctions. that is how I found my friend his 41/2' south bend and Rockwell mill. funny thing was it was 15 minutes from his house.

I would pass on the that lathe it is too short. remember if profiling barrels you are not doing it with the barrel in the head stock. also if you are threading and chambering with a steady rest you are working back where there is little or no wear on the bed.

[waarp8nt]

I have found a South Bend 13 and rest assured I will be picky as it came from a school. From the pictures the tool holder/cross slide has contacted the 3 jaw, but even if it needed bearings, I bet the ways will not have been worn down like an industrial lathe. Correct me if I am thinking wrong....

Also, I can take my time looking if this one doesn't turn out. I found out that my dad's friend Ron has a lathe I can use to fix the underhammer barrel.

164614

[oldred]

I have three lathes, two 12X36 and one gear head 14X40. Grizzly has several " gunsmith lathes" that seem to be better than Harbor freight and maybe better than Enco. My 14x40 is a Birmingham, bought about 10 years ago and it does most of my gun work. Look for at least 1.5" spindle hole and some way to mount a spider on the off end.


Bear in mind there are two very different Birmingham lathes, the much more expensive Taiwanese and the cheaper Chinese economy models, an example is the Birmingham 1440YCL that is absolutely identical to the Harbor Freight 14x40 and the Enco version, the Harbor Freight lathe actually had a Birmingham operators and parts manual with it and the website for the HF item number linked to a pdf of the 1440YCL. I have the HF version and a friend has the same one from Enco, I have run his machine many times and it is identical in every way to mine except for the name plate and the color! The point is that HF lathes from 12x36 on up were the same machines as Enco, Birmingham, PM and several others sold by different importers from the same Chinese company, the Enco my buddy has is no better or worse in any way than mine and in fact is simply the same machine. The point is that the HF lathes can be a real bargain if a person is going to buy a Chinese import, they often sell for quite a bit less than other brands of the exact same machine that came from the same factory because of the common misconception that the ones sold by HF are somehow inferior, they are not! Just like the excellent American and Italian built larger air compressors not everything HF sells, or sold in the case of the lathe, is junk! Mine has been run daily, 6 days a week more often than not, since 2008 repairing mining, logging and construction equipment and other than the paint looking a bit rough its still as solid and accurate as the day I uncrated it. This machine has in the last eight years seen far more and heavier use than the vast majority of homeshop lathes would see in many more years than that and maybe even a lifetime!


EDIT, to be clear I am not in any way trying to insinuate that the HF lathes, or any Chinese machines, are as good as an American, European or even Taiwanese lathes just that the larger HF machinery is from the same factories and is the same as and every bit as reliable as any of the Chinese machines that are built by the same Chinese companies. The old American machinery, if it's not worn out, is WAAAAY better in every way than the Chinese lathes no matter who sold them.

[B R Shooter]

I use a 14x40 Acer with VFD. It has a narrow headstock, 1.350" bore. It has done very well chambering through the headstock.

[John Taylor]

I have a Birmingham mill that the base was made in China and the head was made in Taiwan.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

For several years I had a 11 inch Logan lathe and it was ok because I had so much tooling, including a collet closer with all the collets. I even had a turret which I learned to appreciate. As nice as the lathe was it did not compare to my friends two 12 inch Clausings. I believe you could use the beds from one of those as an anchor for an aircraft carrier. I met a dealer in used machinery who had one for sale that was new but he wanted four grand for it. That doesn't sound like much now but it was over twenty five years ago.

[smokeywolf]

About a year and a half ago, I was putting together a prototype/R&D machine shop for a large company and although I was not shopping for Asian made machinery, I learned that quite a bit of the newer Asian made machinery has the major castings done in China with machining (heads, headstocks, spindles) done in Taiwan.

This is the 1982ish Hardinge HLV-H-EM lathe that I lined up for the company. Accu-Rite DRO to be installed on delivery.

First pic is machine at closed down shop being liquidated. Second pic is after machinery reseller did complete cleanup, tear down of carriage, clean-out of oil galleries and lines, repaint and replacement of some of the placards.
No readjustment or replacement of gears, bushings, half nuts, etc. were needed as there was at worst point, only .006 backlash in the cross-slide. Carriage backlash was minimal.
Would guess that the machine had less than 7,000 hours on it.
164769164770

Price for this machine, all included, was $24,000

[JSH]

Glad I ran across this thread. You have all but talked me out of one of the grizzly mini lathes, all I want to do would be make my own custom lube dies would be a big job. I will admit that I know enough to be dangerous, but I am dang sure not going to learn any younger.
jeff