Custom Bisley 45 accuracy issue

[4bisley5]

Have a question about bullet hardness. This may not be the correct location to post this question but here goes. I'm new to cast shooting. The last 30 years has been just reloading jacketed in my 44 and 41 mags. Never had a concern with accuracy as they all seemed to shoot well.
I have a Ruger Bisley Clements Custom conversion chambered in 45 Colt and decided to try moving strictly to cast. The gun will flat out shoot like crazy when I have it loaded full throttle. I'm trying to load these down to a standard type loading. I'm getting to where I dislike the thunder and need a milder shooting load.
The current load this revolver loves is:

270 grain Keith from Leadhead sized .452 (BHN 21)
24.0 grains IMR 4227
CCI 350
Starline cases

Accuracy drops off to a terrible level when loaded with some mild loads of Unique and Power Pistol. I've been testing the loads from the Brian Pearce article on that bullet.

Now for my question. Is BHN 21 too hard for lower pressure velocities and shooting? I've read about it elsewhere but would really like to here it from some of folks that may have experienced the same. I assumed that if you have proper dimensions it wouldn't be an issue.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Mark

[Tatume]

No. You should be able to find a load the gun likes with that bullet, if it fits your throats. Have you checked your throat diameter? I suspect you have a good fit, as Clements probably wouldn't cut them too large, but it's worthwhile to check anyway.

How much Unique have you tried. PM me and I'll tell you what I use.

Take care, Tom

[RobS]

I've found that the 270 Keith to run very well with only few different loads and only so, so with others. I later designed a LFN style boolit that will shoot well with numerous powder/boolit combinations. If I remember correctly my best Unique load with the RCBS SAA 270 grain Keith was 10.5 grains with a water quenched WW allow at around 20-22 BHN.

Large Frame Ruger Bisley with .4525 throats

[C. Latch]

There are a very few people who seem to do well with really hard bullets, such as you describe using, but most of us are much happier with bullets than are relatively soft, and especially so with lighter loads.


Speaking for myself, I love custom sixguns and would love to see pics of yours. I'm waiting for an open slot with another smith to have some very basic custom work done on a Ruger Bisley myself.

[DougGuy]

You may want to look into trying some boolits without the Keith style driving band at the shoulder, and a smooth transition from a wide meplat down the ogive and into the sides of the boolit. These hit the forcing cone with near parallel surfaces and are much less distorted upon firing than a K type boolit. I suspect your forcing cone would be better suited for these RF or WFN style boolits than the K style. As mentioned earlier, you should be sizing to a light drag fit in the throats. Also, how even are the throats with one another?

Hardness is another question, I have really good results with almost every boolit style in 50/50+2% (coww/lead/2% tin) this is an alloy that is a perfect match for Ruger's rifling and twist rate, when paired up with Felix lube or other soft lube even SPG, I get stellar results and never even have to clean the bore.

So, my suggestion is to try a smooth sided boolit with softer alloy and soft lube. <-- IF the barrel takes a liking to this combo like I think it will, you will know right off the bat if it was the right direction to go in. I would ask around and see if you can get a sample of some of these 50/50 WFN or RF boolits and give them a try.

[T-Bird]

I shoot that boolit out of my Ruger Bisley with either 11 gr AA#5( 900fps)or 19gr Lil Gun (1100fps) with good accuracy out of coww+2%. Size .452, had my cylinder throats opened years ago to .4525.

[4bisley5]

164090164091

[Blackwater]

This isn't the answer you were looking for, but in my experience, lighter loads are generally best and most easily achieved by going to a lighter bullet. Heavy bullets just simply give heavier recoil. It's the "action-reaction" thing. And also, slower powders such as 4227 don't often yield great results with mild loads either, so I'd also recommend another, faster burning powder. FWIW, a buddy who's a great fan of the LC found happiness looking for the same thing you're looking for in the end - a lighter load with less recoil - with 6.5-6.7 gr. Red Dot under a 200 gr. RNFP bullet. He was shooting Oregon Trails because he doesn't like casting, but the Lee 200 gr. RNFP mold is cheap, and would save you money in the long run by stretching your lead supply out significantly further. The faster powder will also prove cheaper, too, since you get so many more reloads out of a single pound of it than with the slower burners. FWIW?

[Lloyd Smale]

like others I haven't had the best luck with the 270 rcbs swc. When it does shoot well its usually only at 1200 fps or more. I would suggest you look into a 280 lfn of some sorts. Lbt makes a real good one. If that doesn't work ive had decent luck in 45s with the 300 rcbs swcgc ran 1000-1100 fps. Don't put much store in the suggestions to cast softer. Daves guns are made with proper dimensions and in the 40 years ive been loading and casting for handguns 99 percent of the time if the guns right, harder bullets shoot better. Bottom line is your running into what ive said for years on there. The 45 colt can be much more finicky to load for then a 44. Ive owned MANY of them and have probably fought with every one of them to get a 250-280 grain bullet to shoot well in them, especially at mild levels. Now if your talking 300 grain and up and top end loads its a different animal and most shoot real well at that level. Now another thing your going to run into here is what some consider accurate. To me an accurate load puts 6 shots into an inch at 25 yards and an inch and a half AT MOST! Some are happy with 3 inch groups or the ability to hit a beer can at 15 steps.

[44man]

I am the hard boolit guy, at least 20-22 BHN in revolvers.
With a Keith, I only started to get accuracy using a fast powder, Unique and 231, when I got to 28-30 BHN. As Doug mentioned, keeps the shoulder from smearing off at the cone.
Fit is important and a lot of store bought boolits lack fit. Hard boolits do not cause leading.
Use a soft lube, I prefer Felix over anything else. Best lubes will have lanolin for "sticky."
If I need softer for hunting I cast a portion of the nose softer so the drive is still hard.
As you go up in caliber and power, the Keith gets worse and worse.

[Texantothecore]

Try a .454 round ball. It should work just fine. 45lc is known for good round ball performance.

[johnson1942]

i agree with the post above. i use 18 grains by weight of blackhorn 209 power, then 2, 60 thousands thick hard fiber or poly wads then a .454 round ball. roll crimp over the end of the round ball. the accuracy couldnt get any better in my 45 long colt. center of a playing card at 25 yards. cheap and fun to shoot. also i would not be afraid to use this in a defensive situation. has good penetration also.

[Texantothecore]

I will be trying them in a Bond Derringer with 3fg bp. It should be a hoot. I shoot a lot of round ball in other guns and they work extremely well.

I may very well use it as a defensive load as they have been very effective for many years.

[Don Purcell]

4bisley5, I recently tried a John Linebaugh suggested load of 13 grains of HS-6 under a 300 grain WFN. Easy shooting load with plenty of thump and accurate.

[4bisley5]

4bisley5, I recently tried a John Linebaugh suggested load of 13 grains of HS-6 under a 300 grain WFN. Easy shooting load with plenty of thump and accurate.

I've got some of the WFN and LFN coming in to try. I'll have to take pictures the next time at the range but when I push that RCBS 270 at the upper limits it'll do a solid 1 1/4 at 25yd.
I have some HS 6 that I've not tried yet. I'll give that a go.

As far as dimensions go, Dave Clements built a perfect revolver. Throats at .4525 and barrel .451 end to end. No constrictions, 11 degree forcing cone, beautiful trigger. I basically got the full package.

I didn't mention but when I shoot my Hornady 250 grain XTP pushed with 9.0 grains of Power Pistol, it almost keeps in one hole if I do my part.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with everything but the keith getting worse with larger calibers and speeds. Take this 270 bullet. In all my guns it shoots poorly below 1100 and best at about 1250. I have true keith designs for my 500 and 475 and both shoot great at low and high velocity as good as any of my lfns for those guns. I'm sure that's somewhat due to the fact they are custom guns and built right. that to me is the trick to a kieth. It is not forgiving and if your gun isn't right on in dimentions a lfn is probably going to do better due to a smoother transition into the forcing cone. But even in a marginal gun in my experience the harder there casted (ill say that about any cast bullet) the faster there pushed (if sufficiently hard) the better they shoot. The main problem with most peoples experience with keith bullets is there not using a keith bullet. There just aren't to many real kieths out there. even the ones that once were have changed slightly over the years and aren't true to keiths design anymore.

One thing for sure is the swc is a finiky girl. You can take a great shooting swc and change it so slightly your eyes cant even notice and turn a great bullet into a turd (and I consider the 270 a turd) . If I kept them all id have about a drawer full of group buy molds that were suppose to be exact copys of good swc designs that weren't copied exactly and are turds. This seems especially true with the 45 colt and swcs. I think some of it is most 45s are twisted for heavier bullets compared to 44s and have been told by guys that know more then me that most 45 colts for some reason come with shallower rifling then 44s normaly due and everyone knows the 45s rep for being out of spec with overly tight or completely sloppy chambers. Just not a good recipe for accuracy with a swc.

You want good accuracy with a swc the cast it hard, lube it with a good lube, size properly for your gun and shoot it out of your 44 mag or special. Even then you might have to try a couple designs before you find one your gun likes. But I'm kind of with 44 man in if you don't like fooling around or chasing loads just get a gas checked lfn. That is about guaranteed to shoot in anything at least acceptably.
I am the hard boolit guy, at least 20-22 BHN in revolvers.
With a Keith, I only started to get accuracy using a fast powder, Unique and 231, when I got to 28-30 BHN. As Doug mentioned, keeps the shoulder from smearing off at the cone.
Fit is important and a lot of store bought boolits lack fit. Hard boolits do not cause leading.
Use a soft lube, I prefer Felix over anything else. Best lubes will have lanolin for "sticky."
If I need softer for hunting I cast a portion of the nose softer so the drive is still hard.
As you go up in caliber and power, the Keith gets worse and worse.

[44man]

I agree, most have some change, never got any to work in the .475 BFR's. They were cast in custom molds but no idea who designed them.
I never liked the one huge GG either, much prefer two or three smaller ones.
My original Flat top shot the 429421 very good but after years of Ruger's I think they were fit up better back then. Same as the old 27 I had, fit better then any newer one. I could hit 1" targets at 100 with the old Thompson 358156 HP. I never, ever seen any .357 that could match it.
The original 29's were amazing too.

[frank505]

Thank you Lloyd, and I'll just keep shooting my Keith's as much as I can. Wish you'd come visit again, we could go prairie dog blasting. We kill them at a hundred yards with 45s and Keith bullets. From what I've read, it can't be done. We should meet over at Jeff's in north Dakota, he's got lots more dogs to blast.

[Lloyd Smale]

boy id love to frank. Problem is after 3 back surgerys and just having my ankle replaced the long drive just isn't in the cards. Heck I could even swing by great falls mt and see my sister. Id love to see Jeff too. Probably isn't anyone that's done more actual cast bullet testing then Jeff. Hes a walking encyclopedia on how bullets fly and especially 45 colts. Still remember his bullet flight movie at the seminar one year. it was an eye opener. To see those wfns taking off like they were ricochets. Probably isn't any two guys in the country that have slung more lead then you and jeff other then maybe Al and hes just not up to it anymore. Even my shooting has slowed a lot. Used to shoot all winter but anymore the cold just gets to me to much. Hope you and the wife are doing well pal! Ill say one last thing. Frank was the owner of Mt. Baldy bullets and although he doesn't post here much. Sit up and listen when he does.

[LAH]

I always listen to Frank.

[Lloyd Smale]

and yet another one to pay attention to here. Mr Creeker knows what hes talking about.
I always listen to Frank.

[44man]

I always listen to Frank.
Accuracy is a contentious issue and I did have it long ago with Keiths but never duplicated it. I shot the 429421 to well over 400 yards back in the day since I followed Elmer as much as anyone. There was no more fun then blasting rocks on a RR berm at extreme ranges. But they were not stones either.
Then the stories surfaced that a WFN will not shoot good past 50 yards. I had been using WLN so made molds for WFN for deer and shot a 500 yard group of 2-1/2" and 100 yard groups down to 1/2" with red dots.
Everyone here knows I reject anything over 1" at 50 yards. Yeah a Keith did about 3" SOOO! REJECTED!
My .500 JRH, WFN boolit did this at 50 .164245 Then this at 100 yards. 164246 There is a vast difference in what each wants from a revolver but I expect nothing less. I must have 1000 groups under 1/2" at 50 from all sorts of revolvers. Even a Taurus .44. Some of the best are the BFR's, Ruger SRH and SBH Hunter, then the old 29's I had all did it.
The Bisley defeats me. I sold all 29's too since the grip affects my hold and POI. It is a personal hand thing. Small groups shot with any Bisley is ONE! I sweated blood to do it.
So fellas, what are your expectations? Many say it is just a revolver but you might be wrong. I absolutely love the crazy guns. A good custom can amaze you and Jacks have all been solid on target.
3" at 25??? I would start over and not blame most guns. 3" at 100 can be sad. It is your loading bench first. I can tell most the factory loads today will shame you.
I still remember the time when a 1 MOA revolver was searched for. They spent thousands and finally got one group at 100 at 1". I have done that at 200 meters shooting Creedmore with open sights. 164247 One day at an IHMSA shoot I had time to shoot my chicken cardboard target at 200 meters and had two shots left for my SBH. I took them, open sights, Creedmore and got them 9/16" apart. Do you know what this target looks like at 216 yards?
What do you get with your Keith boolits?
I will not argue but when you get one hole at 50, I will sit up straight and listen.

[frank505]

Dang it Lloyd , enough of these back surgeries. Just did my fourth complete with a bunch of titanium ****. Probably a year of recovery. Guess my days working in the hills are finished.
I'm lucky to be around and still shooting some. It's going to be a k22 for quite some time and maybe some little calibers. Spring bear is coming and I cannot shoot rifles. Oh well a 45 and the old stand by 310 Keith will kill any bear and exit. Got one of those mihec molds with a cup nose. We tested them last summer on p dogs. Holy cow do they make a mess. And they shot well at for hundred something. Of course I had to do all the work, Jeff and Shane sat in the pickup and offered "advice". That design is a good one.

[44man]

I hate the "PLACEMENT" STUFF. get 3" at 25 and tell me you place a shot at 75 or 100 is what you do. NOT! True a shot must hit vitals but to ever tell me you can do it with a revolver every time at any range and some with a 2" barrel is nothing but a flag to the pile left by a cow. I do shoot deer and perps at 100 yards with a snubby --- yeah sure, what planet are you from?
I refuse to bluff you with stupid stuff.

[4bisley5]

I had a much better day with lighter loads yesterday at the range. While I'm waiting on my WFN bullets to get here, I decided to try a load of 6.5 grains of Titegroup with my 270 Keith. I removed the super hard red lube and replaced it with some of the Lee tumble lube that I had. I don't even remember where I got it since I don't cast my own. Anyway, the accuracy improved dramatically. I was in a hurry starting to lose some light but at 25 yds shooting one hand bullseye style I was placing several in am inch and half.

I don't know if the dramatic improvement came from the change in powder tested or if the lube caused it. I was an idiot for not changing one thing at at time for testing.

This weekend I'll be loading up 2 samples to do a comparison. I plan on loading with 13.0 grains of HS-6 and trying the same load with the hard red lube and the Lee soft lube.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ya frank the snows about gone here and I cant even get out to shoot yet because of my ankle. Another couple weeks and I should be able to at least get out there for some kind of shooting. Guess it could be worse. Could be about bed ridden like Al.
Dang it Lloyd , enough of these back surgeries. Just did my fourth complete with a bunch of titanium ****. Probably a year of recovery. Guess my days working in the hills are finished.
I'm lucky to be around and still shooting some. It's going to be a k22 for quite some time and maybe some little calibers. Spring bear is coming and I cannot shoot rifles. Oh well a 45 and the old stand by 310 Keith will kill any bear and exit. Got one of those mihec molds with a cup nose. We tested them last summer on p dogs. Holy cow do they make a mess. And they shot well at for hundred something. Of course I had to do all the work, Jeff and Shane sat in the pickup and offered "advice". That design is a good one.

[frank505]

I'd like these eastern dudes to spend half a day in the hills with no bench rest shooting p dogs and picket pins with their six-guns. We'll see where the bs hits the dirt. And fix fence all day with the same sixgun on their belt. I don't know what the hell is wind with 44 man, or who pissed in his coffee but make some sense when you attack me.

[44man]

I'd like these eastern dudes to spend half a day in the hills with no bench rest shooting p dogs and picket pins with their six-guns. We'll see where the bs hits the dirt. And fix fence all day with the same sixgun on their belt. I don't know what the hell is wind with 44 man, or who pissed in his coffee but make some sense when you attack me.
I attack nobody. My first goal is to have everyone shoot the best.
It has taken more years then you have been alive to find solutions and Lloyd, Doug and many others here know all about it. They are not pulling your tail. I don't post BS, I show what is done. But NO, I can't do as good anymore, darn I am 78. Takes a bottle of Jack to make a sandbag stop jumping! :bigsmyl2: Opens now, get real, where are they?
You are in your prime, maybe but you would not fool with me years ago.
Hey, show us. I am generous and will give you ten years to shoot a 1" group at 100 with a Keith.

[Lloyd Smale]

I wont get into this PI... match but will say this. I respect 44mans opinion because I know it comes from shooting. Ive never actually saw him shoot and posting pictures of targets on the internet never proved a thing to me. Its to easy to shoot a 50 yard target and claim a 100. Not that 44man does that. I truly believe he is honest. Now frank on the other hand ive seen shoot personaly. I consider myself a fair shot but theres a few guys that are in a different league then me and hes one of them. There isn't but a handful of handgun shooters in the country that will outshoot him period. I'm not one of them. I also know him personaly and know one thing that's fact. If he says something you can take it to the bank. Not one once of bs in him.

[44man]

I go along with that Lloyd, many shoot better then I do too but I still contend most that have a problem should not place blame on their gun or themselves so much. Many times it is what they are shooting.
My only claim is making revolvers shoot and some times I could drop the gun on the bench to group better then I can. The fact is many friends will shoot my guns and loads better then me.
Only Dave goes haywire, I sold him my SRH that would take pop cans at 200 but even though he uses my boolits, he changes the loads all the time. He once brought his Dan Wesson 1911 out and I shot a 1/2" group at 50 but he had no idea what boolit or load he had. Never to be done again.
One time he brought a pile of rifles for me to clean up, most rusty. They were piled behind his truck seat, no gun cases, gun against gun. He has toxic hands so guns rust where he touches them. His new Ruger .41 looks like it was drug behind his truck on a gravel road.
Old timers here know about Dave, he can poke the heart out of a cardboard deer but will miss a live deer by 10 yards! One day his stand was close to another friend, I heard him shoot twice and he came to me asking if I seen the deer. He said he hit it twice but my other friend said it walked away the other way. It was doe season and he shot at a small buck, Don said to himself "don't shoot, Dave" Bang-bang anyway.
Another friend bought a varmint rifle and loaded test loads, never sighted or tested any. He went chuck hunting and shot all at chucks, never hit one. He has more guns then I can count, wants me to go to his house and clean them all, not going to happen! He flies RC planes too and when he crashes, he brings them for me to fix. Darn he is also a Dave!

[High Desert Hunter]

I will be the odd man out here. With bullets cast of COWW from a 2 cavity RCBS 270-SAA mold, I get 1 to 1 1/2" accuracy with this bullet water quenched, sized to .451 and loaded over 8.5 grains of Unique or as much FFFg as will fit under the bullet, fired from an Accusport SS Ruger Bisley with a 5 1/2" barrel. I have fired literally thousands of these bullets loaded over Unique, HS6 and H110 the groups open up a little, same with 2400. I also get 1" groups from my FA 454 with this bullet over 10 grains of Unique in Starline 454 cases and CCI 450 primers.

[LAH]

Is there something wrong with listening to Frank or Lloyd?

[44man]

I will be the odd man out here. With bullets cast of COWW from a 2 cavity RCBS 270-SAA mold, I get 1 to 1 1/2" accuracy with this bullet water quenched, sized to .451 and loaded over 8.5 grains of Unique or as much FFFg as will fit under the bullet, fired from an Accusport SS Ruger Bisley with a 5 1/2" barrel. I have fired literally thousands of these bullets loaded over Unique, HS6 and H110 the groups open up a little, same with 2400. I also get 1" groups from my FA 454 with this bullet over 10 grains of Unique in Starline 454 cases and CCI 450 primers.
You did not say how far?
Let me show you. Whitworth was out, .500 JRH BFR, I made the mold 440 gr WFN at 1350 FPS. PB, water dropped WW and loaded the ammo. He took the first shot and the can did not fall. I took the second shot. Two shooters. 164454164455 Both boolits in the same hole and that was at 100 yards. Naw a revolver is not able! Then 5 shots with a BFR 45-70 at 100 yards in the top of this can 164456Other shots in it are from a friends rifle. I had less then 3/4" with home made mold. Had to walk and set the can after every shot too. THAT is revolver accuracy.

[44man]

Is there something wrong with listening to Frank or Lloyd?
Not at all. Most of my stuff is repeated but I still need help too. Why do rounds loaded long ago not shoot as good as newer loads. Does tension change or is it my old butt? I do better if I load and shoot but rounds a few years old lose the edge. Does lube change?
I don't understand it! Can't be the powder. A friend works for the gov't, fish and waters. Found a pile of 06 loads in the river. Clip was rotted away and so was brass. Holes in it. It dried out and we took the bullets out with fingers, poured the powder and lit it. Burned fine. Rounds were ate up bad. I bet primers would still fire.

[Don Purcell]

44man, I don't know if this has anything to add to what you were wondering about aged loaded ammo but my friend Kent Lomont and I were talking about the recent quality of brass we were using at the time (about 30 years ago) and we both thought the old original Remington .44 mag brass was better and had heavier walls compared to the thin walled junk they were then producing. He said he had a bullet pull gauge set up to see how much poundage it took to pull a loaded bullet. The new manufacture brass took only 60-80 pounds if I remember correctly to pull a cast bullet. He had some ammo he had loaded back in the early 60's and it took nearly 200 pounds. But now I wonder if part of that was maybe what you are referring to about aged loaded ammo changing. Just a thought but there it is for you consideration.

[High Desert Hunter]

44Man, in the 454, with a scope, it would shoot that at 50, and not much more at 100 yards. The 45 Colt I only shoot for groups at 25, longer range is reserved for rocks, rabbits and coyotes.

[LAH]

Is there something wrong with me listening to Frank?


Not at all.

If it's ok I listen to Frank then please explain why you posted all that stuff in post 22? What does that have to do with my listening to what Frank has to say? I simply don't understand.

[LAH]

Why do rounds loaded long ago not shoot as good as newer loads.

These were loaded for the groundhog field many years ago & were shot back in the fall in my sporter 700 Remington. Wonder what they would have been fresh? Ammo stored properly simply don't go bad in my limited research, 'course I don't know much.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Firearms/700%20Remington%20223/20160325_133323.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/Creekerpics/media/Firearms/700%20Remington%20223/20160325_133323.jpg.html)

[Tatume]

Excellent accuracy depends on many things, and one of them is consistent bullet pull. An experiment conducted many years ago used a batch of match rifle ammo (no crimp) that had been properly stored for several years. Twenty five shots were fired into five, five-shot groups. Another 25 rounds had the bullets slightly pulled using a kinetic bullet puller, and then re-seated to the original length. These were then fired into five, five-shot groups. The latter groups were significantly smaller.

It was suggested that ever so slight corrosion between the case neck and the bullet had affected the grip of the case necks on the bullets. The effect was thought to be inconsistent, thereby causing the decline in accuracy.

[Tatume]

I should add that I know several very successful High Power Rifle competitors who load their ammo for the season in one large batch. All bullets are seated long. A few days before each match a sufficient number of cartridges are re-seated to the correct length.

[44man]

Is there something wrong with me listening to Frank?




If it's ok I listen to Frank then please explain why you posted all that stuff in post 22? What does that have to do with my listening to what Frank has to say? I simply don't understand.
Only to add a few points he might miss.
Now everyone here knows how even bullet pull is my most important thing and Tatume has brought up an important point. I have wondered about lube changing the pull since many lubes will make brass green after a while. Even jacketed has some interaction between metals but lube on cast might be the worst so what he has said deserves much consideration.
The next thing I thought of is brass might relax some with age and change tension. I know I have had brass crack on rounds stored a long time, new never fired either.
I know for a fact if I cast, age the boolits a short time, load and shoot soon, accuracy is best, last years will not match them.
OK, how to fix?