what qualifies as good shooting?

[acsteve]

I have the pleasure of occationally shooting with a guy who I believe is a particularly good pistol shooter. With an ACP he typically shoots 12 gauge hulls at 25 yards...with a standing 2 hand hold. He will hit 5 shells from 7 shots, he doesnt count knockdowns. Shot yesterday with him and he relativly sucked it up and hit only 2 out of a cylinder full of full house 44 mag boolits from a 7.5" black hawk. He does all of his shooting offhand or unsupported. Can many people beat this? I am wondering because I shoot OK but am no where near his league. I have only seen one person even close to this type of shooting, a cop of some sort shot put 3 cop clips of 9mm into a fistsized group at 25yds. He didnt impress me much because he pulled up and shot all his while I was standing at the target at the local public range, but that is a different story. Pretty sure he was a cop due to his concealed carry of a glock when that was generally illegal in my state.

[targetshootr]

I'd say he qualifies. I bet he's young and still sees well. Dern him.

:shock:

[danski26]

That's some pretty good shooting. Be wary of the claims of 500 yard revolver shooting that are soon to be inbound........

[9.3X62AL]

Danski--

What? Ya mean ta tell me ya can't shoot 5" groups at 500 yards with yer Super Blackhawk? Oh, the shame--the degradation............

Ahem. The standard for pistol accuracy varies from shooter to shooter and from venue to venue. No doubt about it, production self-loading handguns on average are a LOT more accurate out of the box than they were a generation ago, and function far more reliably with hollowpoint or cast boolits. The old "standard" for the 1911A1 in 45 ACP used to be "all shots in a #2 washtub at 50 yards" for service-grade pistols. Things have come a long way.

I would think that most service-grade autopistols and revolvers can hold 3" at 25 yards these days. If not, they won't sell. A lot of sport and field handguns can do considerably better than that, but the question is always The Nut Holding The Grips--how well can The Nut shoot? As for that LEO that fired the great group.......nice, as far as it goes--but how will he do when the target shoots back? LOTS of variables with your question.

[44man]

AH yes, great shooting and great eyes! I need the bottom of my bi-focals now to even see a shotgun shell.
I just got examined for new glasses and have to wear my old ones so I have a kink in my neck just looking at this boob tube.

[Dale53]

To be a "standard" (in this case accuracy) I believe it should be a "normal" or "typical" and easily repeated "standard".

The 25 yard timed fire target (shot slow fire) has been my standard for many years.

Ten shots fired for score standing, slow fire (one or two handed as pleases the shooter) at 25 yards.

I would say that anyone who consistently breaks 90 is a pretty fair shot. He who breaks 95 on average is quite good. Those that do better are REALLY good shots (not an NRA Master but a high scoring "Expert").

Of course, anyone that carries an NRA Master classification is a DANDY shothttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Dale53

[mtnman31]

My vision is still plenty good to shoot what I need to. I swear some people just can see differently than others. I think it has got to do with being able to better focus on objects at two different distances.

Trigger control is key to good pistol shooting. I have done a little competitive shooting and have had plenty of time to focus on shooting fundamentals and improvement. It is amazing how the slightest, most imperceptable movements of the hand/trigger manipulation can throw off your shots.

Obviously, the best way to get better is through lots of practice. I get a kick out of the "geardos" who think they need a 2500 dollar race gun to shoot well. Most of what makes a good shot is practice. Most of us all know that guy who has one gun that he has owned for years and he can shoot wonders with it. Chances are that gun is worn out and looks like hell - but he has thousands of rounds through it and has developed that intimate relationship with it - it has become an extension of his hand. Practice makes perfect.

It always brings me a little self-satisfaction when I am out shooting my trusty Taurus revolver and some guy shows up with a 1500 dollar 1911 and can't keep his rounds on paper at 15 yards. It reassures me that my pistol is going to do everything I expect it to do. Most guns are capable of a lot more accuracy than the shooter has skills.

Don't get discouraged by other people's good shooting. I try and find out from them what makes them the good shot they are. I am always willing to listen to what works for other people. Also, as was mentioned earlier, good shooting is subjective. A guy who is a good combat style shooter, may not be a good olympic style shooter. A good olympic shooter may be able to put ten shots in a fist size group off hand from 200 yards, but he may not be able to hit a running deer at 25yards or drop a pheasant that is flying away from him. We've all got our strengths and weaknesses when it comes to shooting.

[Buckshot]

................Face it, some people are naturals. It's a gift like being musical. Pick up a guitar (or whatever) a few lessons and they just have it. Listen to a song a couple itmes and they're playing it. So far as shooting goes, you for sure have to have an accurate firearm, regardless an innate ability, as that ability does NOT allow you to foretell where a boolit is going to go :-)

Most of the rest of us can develope a certain apptitude for it by practicing. Usually this is with the same gun, load, and distance. Probably differences occur for different sports where speed and movement are involved, unlike for old fashioned bullseye paper punching.

I recall in the 10th grade in English I think it was, we had a speed reading series. This was back in like 1967 or so, so it was via a 16mm projector :-) The projector displayed a printed page that had a lighter section highlighting a sentance or portion of a sentance. The balance of the page was darker, but the print was still legible. The idea was to 'see and absorb' the highlighted section, vs reading each individual word.

When we first started you could hear the groans of dismay and defeat. First of all this is not the way you're taught to read, so it was new. In addition it seemed impossibly fast. Each week was the same speed and then there was a written test afterwards for comprehension. By the end of the week we were getting the hang of it. Each week the highlighting got noticeably faster.

At the semester the teacher (Mr. Bushong reminds me of Travelocities' roaming gnome:-)) replayed the very first one we started with. Holy smoke but it was SLOW!! Like the time I treid a steel plate shoot. I aimed deliberately at each plate in turn, so it was blam, blam, blam etc. I thought I'd done well, as I was one of the first shooters. Then you had the speedsters that had each shot on top of each other.

They did not aim at each plate. They sweep their pistols across the plates in one smooth motion, never stopping. Talking to one of these guys showed that they shot as the next plate was just coming up to the left (shooting right to left) edge of the front of the slide. With practice eye hand, or finger coordination was the thing. They learned via going faster and faster in controlled practice you pulled the trigger at X intervals. The body (finger) learned what to do with what the eye was seeing. I think it's muscle memory.

I have a pretty good handle on squeezing when the target and sights are aligned, and not squeezing when they aren't. It DOES work, but I am afflicted with the occassional BFD. That would be Brain-Finger-Disconnect. The sight drifts off but the finger, that mutinous appendage fires the shot anyway:veryconfu. You know how fast your brain can converse with itself, right? The sight drifts off and you think in a nanosecond "I'll get it next pass" then BANG! Stupid finger! Mentally you KNEW it wasn't the time, but the finger just didn't get the word, ha!

.................Buckshot

[Bret4207]

Sight alignment, trigger squeeze. Given decent eyesight, I'm going blind I think, the rest is just practice.

[Newtire]

There's a guy & his girlfriend that come to the range where I shoot who shoot just as good offhand with some of their pistols as I shoot off the sandbags with mine. They both wear cokebottle glasses. I am embarassed to shoot next to them. Real nice people too!

[10-x]

IMHO it depends on whay type of shooting we are talking about or engaged in. Bullseys is or should be the basis to form a good foundation in shooting sports.
In the good days the Army Advanced Marksmanship manual(AMU) taught 3 basic principals:
BREATHING CONTROL
SIGHT ALIGNMENT
TRIGGER CONTROL
Stance, grip and a few more come into play but these 3 will make or break you.
A cheap way to practice is: tape a piece of cardboard to a wall or door at eye level, draw a 1/8" dot in the center, using a new sharp #2 pencil, stick the pencil down the barrel (1911)with the eraser against the rear of slide,cock the weapon, settle into you stance, practice your breathing control, sight alignment and trigger control and sqeeze. You will be surprised. See the AMU book for cures.
We used this even though we fired 100's of rounds a day, and you can do it indoors.:-P

[beagle]

Ah, that's a good question and the current trend is the old "mine is bigger than yours syndrome".

I've knocked around pistol shooting for nigh onto 50 years now and consider myself a "Fair" pistol shot. Back in my military days, I played the bullseye game some but was never a "good" shot. I didn't have the discipline and couldn't take the time for practice from my military career.

Rather than worry about what some other guy ..or gal does, ask yourself, does my level of proficiency meet my needs and if so, be happy with it.

I've shot hundreds of thousands of rounds in field shooting with a handgun. Plinking at cans, shooting turtles on the creek, plinking at long range targets and a variety of practical targets. I've punched a lot of paper testing loads from a sandbag too. I've even put a lot of rounds downrange from the M1911 and various .38s and 9mms at 200 yard targets on the Army's trainfire ranges. Enought to impress some folks with my accuracy.

I'm a kind of disciple of old Elmer as well and his philosophy was to be good enough with a pistol to hold someone off until you could get to a rifle.

As a result, I'll normally spend a range session and include at least a box of 50 rounds on targets at 100 yards. Now, I'm not shooting for groups here but want to be at least proficient enough to hit a couple of rounds in my intended target out of a cylinder or out of a magazine.

I've made some good shots in my day and they were true skill as I was hitting what I aimed at. Luck? Yes, a lot of it.

I recall reading an article by Col. Charles Askins once and someone asked what it took to be a National Pistol Champion. He replied that it took 100,000 rounds of practice for 20 years.

I look at the gee whiz shot on TV in all the fancy shooting games and realize that it's practice, practice and more practice and a lot of ammo downrange.

Most of us don't have the time or facilities or access to this amount of ammunition to become as good as these YOUNG guys. Yes sight and reflexes play a great part too.

So, realize your limitations as to age and eyesight. Set goals for the profficiency that are adequate for your needs or goals that you desire to acheive and practice, practice and practice. This will insure that when something goes bump in the night and you grab up the hogleg by the bed that you'll be familiar enough with it and proficient enough to protect yourself and your family.

Besides, all that practice and the cast bullet casting required to furnish ammunition for practice is fun....... MHO./beagle

[Dale53]

I was never a "champ" NRA Bullseye shot with a pistol (I WAS on the local level with a big bore and small bore rifle). The reason was not a lack of "talent" but rather that the game did not excite me so I did NOT put in the necessary effort. My scores were high Expert but NOT Master. However, when I got into IPSC, I started in Class "A" and stayed there (new shooters are required to shoot in Class "A" until their proper level is discovered where in they are placed in the proper class for their ability). Elmer Keith and Ed McGivern's books had taught me what I practiced on my own before discovering IPSC. I had learned the basics from the books and just practiced on my own.

However, IPSC was exciting to me and I shot 15,000 rounds per year for five years (all the time and money I could afford while trying to raise a family). My level got quite good (top 15 in the Soldier of Fortune Three Gun Matches #1 and #3). After IPSC pretty much lost the "Practical" aspect, I lost interest. Now it is just a game with Race Guns and has little practicality - not at all what Col. Jeff Cooper had envisioned.

I learned that even in Speed Shooting, that trigger control is paramount.

These days I can hardly see iron sights so the Red Dots have been truly Heaven Sent for my shooting. Slow fire, I am about as good as I have ever been when using Red Dots. I can still shoot good scores with iron sights but the unreasonable effort takes a lot of the fun out of shooting.

RED DOTS FOREVER!!

[Lloyd Smale]

I shoot alot but am not a natural at it like some. On a good day i can shoot 2 inches off hand at 25 yards but on a not so good day its more like 3 inches. Maybe a tad better with one of my match guns but im not betting money on it.

[targetshootr]

I don't consider myself a good shot either but sometimes guys at the range look sideways if I run the six inch plates offhand from 125 ft with a 4 5/8" Ruger 45 colt. I reckon they don't shoot nearly as much as I do.

[Mumblypeg]

Some 15 years ago I shot PPC. What I learned was that there are people that are "Gifted". Howerver, if you practice enough you will be come better that you ever thought that you would. I didn't compete against them but rather against myself... to be better than I was the time before. If you get to be fairly good and have a good day and the other guy has a bad day , you can beat him. Start with "Making the Shot". In other words, all shots in the same hole. When you can do that then you increase your speed. How bad you want it will determine how much you put into it. It is like any other sport and you must train to get good. Nowdays I'm not as good as I once was... BUT once you learn to ride a bicycle you will never forget. A lot of it is mental, you shut out the rest of the world and focus on making the shot. And the "Gifted Guys"? You'll never beat them unless you're gifted too. Shoot, shoot, and shoot some more.

[jhrosier]

I don't consider myself a good shot either but sometimes guys at the range look sideways if I run the six inch plates offhand from 125 ft with a 4 5/8" Ruger 45 colt. I reckon they don't shoot nearly as much as I do.

targetshootr,

You know that's cheating. Using a proper gun makes it too easy.:smile:

If you get yourself one of those 20-shot 9mms with a red dot and a laser, and practice shooting really fast, you will soon train yourself to miss a few.;)

Jack

[targetshootr]

targetshootr,You know that's cheating. Using a proper gun makes it too easy.:smile: If you get yourself one of those 20-shot 9mms with a red dot and a laser, and practice shooting really fast, you will soon train yourself to miss a few.;)
Jack

:smile:

It tickles me when we're shooting from the canopy and someone comes over and walks all the way up to those plates. I'm just too lazy.

:Fire:

[Bass Ackward]

what qualifies as good shooting?


My definition has changed over time. Used to be that I always wanted to do bettr than I did the day before. Now I just try to hold what I got. :grin: That's good shooting to me.

[44man]

I'm with Bass on this! [smilie=b: When I shot IHMSA I could focus on the front, rear and the 200 meter ram. Now I need someone to turn my head in the direction to shoot.
Hold on to what you have left and be happy. As long as I can hit deer now, thats all I need.

[shooting on a shoestring]

"What qualifies as good shooting?" - you don't get indicted.

[Dale53]

I am now a fat old man (soon to be 73) but I have discovered that even fat old men can improve both their physical condition AND their shooting ability. When I started back shooting handguns, I had not done so (in any meaningful way) for several years. I was pretty ragged. However, after several range sessions it pretty much came back to me.

A couple of years ago, I changed health care providers. My new provider offered a free YMCA membership in their "Wellness Program". We are VERY fortunate in that our local "Y" has a wellness center with about fifty "Nautilus style" machines. They furnished both my wife and myself a "personal trainer" who tailored a program for a "older than dirt" couple. It is quite amazing how both of us have progressed in the past couple of years.

This long tale is to point out that old age should NOT be a deterrent to improving your ability (assuming you can physically stand the new regimen ). So, I would like to encourage any of you older folks to work at improving - you CAN do it!

I had mentioned the 25 yard timed fire target shooting slow fire at 25 yards. The idea is to have a readily available target then when distant friends talk about shooting and what kind of day they had ALL can relate to it.

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

I'm with ya, 44 Man. Few of our physical abilities improve much after about age 45--so ya gotta be crafty and inventive. And PRACTICE.

Shoestring--hear that.

[Whitworth]

"What qualifies as good shooting?" - you don't get indicted.


LOL!! Haha!! That's funny!

[jwp475]

What qualifies as good shooting? Well hitting ones intended target.

[Miner]

Did I ever tell you 'bout the time I shot a dime out of the air at 1000 yards with a 22 Hi Standard..... I guess I shoulda started that "once upon a time" as I have to use a scope and a bench rest to hit anything with these feeble old eyes.

[spurrit]

To be a "standard" (in this case accuracy) I believe it should be a "normal" or "typical" and easily repeated "standard".

The 25 yard timed fire target (shot slow fire) has been my standard for many years.

Ten shots fired for score standing, slow fire (one or two handed as pleases the shooter) at 25 yards.

I would say that anyone who consistently breaks 90 is a pretty fair shot. He who breaks 95 on average is quite good. Those that do better are REALLY good shots (not an NRA Master but a high scoring "Expert").

Of course, anyone that carries an NRA Master classification is a DANDY shothttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Dale53

Yep, at 25 yards, on the indoor range, I seem to be able top hold on the centerline of the target, but my "groups" are about 6" wide and stretch from the neck to the crotch. It's steadily gotten worse as my back gets worse, despite working out. Hopefully, that'll change. Surgery's scheduled for the 30th.


targetshootr,

You know that's cheating. Using a proper gun makes it too easy.:smile:

If you get yourself one of those 20-shot 9mms with a red dot and a laser, and practice shooting really fast, you will soon train yourself to miss a few.;)

Jack

My buddy has an STI he uses for competition. That damn thing holds so many .40's that I get tired of loading magazines half way through the first one!


I'm with Bass on this! [smilie=b: When I shot IHMSA I could focus on the front, rear and the 200 meter ram. Now I need someone to turn my head in the direction to shoot.
Hold on to what you have left and be happy. As long as I can hit deer now, thats all I need.

There for a while I thought all my guns were defective, until I went and spent $400 on a pair of prescription Ray Bans. HINT: DON'T get the dark ones! The first lenses they showed me were kinda smoky gray, but I wanted darker ones. They SUCK indoors or on a cloudy day.

[44man]

My opinion about what level of accuracy any gun has to have, is to have as much as you can wring out of your gun. Having spent half of my shooting life shooting chucks as far as 600 yd's, I learned there is no such thing as enough accuracy. I want every bullet to go where it is aimed.
When I miss, I want to blame myself, not my gun and I accept that. Much easier to live with then having a gun that shoots all over the place. You will never get to be a better shooter with a bullet sprayer. You can shoot 200,000 boolits a year and never advance beyond mediocre.
Give a perfect gun to a gifted shooter with perfect eyesight and look out. But give him a clunker and he won't do as good although he will still outshoot you most of the time but will not reach his peak either.
Accuracy will ALWAYS be number one! That goes for a new shooter too, nothing can discourage him more then a gun that will not shoot because he will never figure out if it his shooting that causes misses, his shooting style or the gun.

[spurrit]

nothing can discourage him more then a gun that will not shoot because he will never figure out if it his shooting that causes misses, his shooting style or the gun.

That's exactly right. I grew up with sucky guns, and was a horrible shooter most of my life, until I was in my mid 20's, and started buying good guns.

[pumpguy]

I am far from a great shot. I can, however, shoot my 2 GP100s into 1" groups at 25 yards. I think this is because I shoot the hell out of these guns. I know them inside and out and know what to expect. Give me a new gun or someone elses gun and it's a crap shoot.

[44man]

Pumpguy, you shoot those 1" groups because both you and the gun are capable. I am sure it will not matter what gun you shoot as long as the gun can group. You shoot good and will also shoot good with any gun that shoots good.
The only crap shoot you face is if another gun or load is not up to your ability. :Fire: Good shooting, by the way.

[felix]

When it comes to shooting, there are several Yogi quotes that are appropriate. ... felix

# "Think! How the hell are you gonna think and hit at the same time?"

# "You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there."

# "I knew I was going to take the wrong train, so I left early."

# "If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else."

# "Baseball is 90% mental -- the other half is physical." ...... You got that right, Yogi!!!!!

# "Slump? I ain't in no slump. I just ain't hitting."

# "You give 100 percent in the first half of the game, and if that isn't enough in the second half you give what's left."

# "90% of the putts that are short don't go in."

# "I made a wrong mistake."

# "I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat, and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?"

# "I didn't really say everything I said."

[MT Gianni]

Felix you omited one of my favorites, "When you see a fork in the road TAKE IT".
Sometimes a decision just has to be made now. Gianni

[felix]

Yeah, I looked at that one, and like you say it should have been included in the list. Translation: If the target did not get a hit on the first round, pick the larger one. ... felix

OK, one step further..... larger one? Fork: Target or Bore.

[targetshootr]

My favorite of is was about a restaurant, "No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

[spurrit]

That's exactly right. I grew up with sucky guns, and was a horrible shooter most of my life, until I was in my mid 20's, and started buying good guns.

By the above, I certainly don't mean you have to have top of the line guns to shoot well. Pretty much any gun, if well cared for, with decent sights and bore, will do.