Surface Rust Vs. Patina

[Jokester]

Hello everybody,
Sorry for flooding the forums with all my questions. The topic is still my Rolling Block rifle. After handloading about 50 rounds, I finally got to take her to the range. Although I went to a local range that only allows targets 100 yards out, she was a tack driver. Other than recoil, she is easy to shoot and shoot accurately.
After getting home, I cleaned her religiously.
JB bore cleaner in the barrel followed by many patches soaked in Hornady One-Shot muzzleloader, followed by a few dry patches and then some patches lubed in Birchwood Casey Gun Oil.
The barreled action was cleaned with the one shot, then sparingly wiped with a BC lubed paper towel.
Block, hammer, trigger group, etc. was all cleaned with the one shot and lubed with BC.

I left home for a few weeks and came home and inspected the rifle. All looks well except for some what looks to be browning on the barrel. I can't tell if its actual rust or just the patina. I don't want to take off the patina but I don't want this beauty to rust either.

Is this rust or patina? Do I need to clean deeper or brush it off?
Also is my cleaning regime good enough for BPCR? I have some ballistol on order to replace the One-Shot and BC, but what do you guys do? Thank you.

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Also some pictures of the action because it looks...spotty?

[BrentD]

Mostly, I use something other than what you have used. For a couple of decades now, I have used Napa ATF for gun oil, but after a recent end extensive test, I have switched to WD40 Specialist (get it at Lowes). The only other thing I would even consider would be Frog Lube but it is not easy to find around here.

For cleaning, I use nothing but water for blackpowder. There is no more effective solvent for bp fouling.

[Dan Cash]

Water or water and alcohol for cleaning (the alcohol helps speed drying and water removal). ATF or ED's Red for lube (do internet search). You have rust. Get rid of the spendy stuff, use real oil and enjoy your gun.

[Jokester]

Water or water and alcohol for cleaning (the alcohol helps speed drying and water removal). ATF or ED's Red for lube (do internet search). You have rust. Get rid of the spendy stuff, use real oil and enjoy your gun.

Maybe a stupid question but are we talking normal rubbing alcohol mixed with water? And what's the best way to remove this rust? I don't want to take a brass or copper brush to the barrel.if it's gonna ruin it.

Also BrentD, how is the WD40 at preventing rust? And is it actually a good lubricant for the moving parts too?

Thank you both!

[BrentD]

Rubbing alcohol is about 70% methanol I believe. The rest is water. You could use "denatured alcohol" (ethanol with something toxic to make it undrinkable) and water instead. But I don't use any alcohol at all. No need for it.

WD40 Specialist is second only to Frog Lube at preventing rust in a test of about 50+ different gun oils. Other than Frog Lube, nothing even close. It is an excellent lubricant as well, esp when applied very thin.

[claude]

Take some brake fluid, or oil, or wd40 and some hard cotton material like a sheet, or a pair of levis, cover the exposed areas well, then rub it until the color red ceases to stain the material. That will get rid of the rust.

Patina won't wipe off with oil and a rag.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

There's a gun dealer who always has something for sale on Gunauction, and he always describes it as having a "pleasing patina". When you look at the photos it's gobs of red rust. He acts like the rust is collectable and is an asset to the firearm. Lots of years ago many guns were browned instead of blued, and the ones that were blued used a chemical composition to do so, and many of these compositions would eventually turn brown also. But if the metal was finished bright, or has become shiny with use, when "something" appears on that surface it is rust. Because black powder residue and that of the various substitutes have an affinity for moisture, a key element of rusting, you'll have to protect the surface of your firearm with something to seal the moisture out, be that an oil or wax. After using your firearm, when cleaning prior to storage and prior to applying the protective coating of whatever you choose to use, I'd clean the exterior metal parts with that same Hoppe's black powder bore cleaner.

[JWT]

Rust is a technical term. Patina is a marketing term.

[bedbugbilly]

All I've ever cleaned my BP guns - rifles and pistols - with for 50 + years is hot soapy water with a dash of alcohol in it - followed by hot, clean water - a thorough drying off (a hair dryer helps heat up the metal during this process - especially C & B revolvers. Follow it up with a good coat of oil - sometimes I use WD40, sometimes 3 in 1, and even sometimes pure virgin olive oil which has been used for centuries to lubricate clocks, etc. There really is no need to buy pricey off the shelf cleaners.

As you did - check the firearm a day or so later to make sure there is no rusting happening. As far as "patina" goes . . . use some oil and very fine steel wool to remove any rusting. "Patina" will usually build up over time as a result of light rusting and removal of it - think of it as the steel having a "stain" left over from the rust removal.

Early muzzleloaders were often "browned" - which is actually a "controlled rust". Others often had their barrels "left in the white" - i.e. unfinished plain metal. Over time with exposure to weather during hunting, BP fouling on the hands touching the barrel, etc. . . . the barrel would take on "patina" so to speak. I once had an original 1861 patter Watertown contract rifled musket on which the barrel had a very heavy "browning" - no pitting or heavy rust but more like what a person would bet if they used Birchwood Casey's "Plum Brown". It was all "patina" due to years and years of use, exposure, being oiled down after use, etc.

From your photos (and nice rifle by the way!) your rifle looks to be "in the white" - i.e. bare metal. If you want to keep it that way, then after cleaning, use fine steel wool and oil and go over the metal surfaces to remove any light rusting from the BP fouling - wipe it down and then oil it well. Don't over think it and worry about it - just keep it clean, shoot it and have fun!

I don't know what the stock is on your rifle - I'm assuming probably black walnut military stock with an oil finish? If so, when it needs a good shining up, take some boiled linseed oil and cut it with "real" turpentine - about 2/3 build linseed oil and 1/2 turpentine - then take a soft cloth like and old tee shirt and apply some and rub it in to the wood. This finish has been used for many many years and again, you don't have to buy "pricey" stock finishes if you have the boiled linseed oil and turpentine on hand. I keep a small bottle mixed up just for rubbing my stocks down every once in a while. Don't use raw linseed oil as it will remain "sticky". Dispose of your immediately when done as if left on a bench, spontaneous combustion can occur from the oily rags. Put them in a plastic bag, tie it tightly and dispose of in the garbage can.

[montana_charlie]

WD-40 Specialist can refer to any one of ten different products.
I don't know which one of those is the most natural 'gun oil'.
http://wd40specialist.com/products

A product called HEET is used to prevent freezing in fuel lines.
It is alcohol pure enough to absorb water in your fuel tank. Not at all like rubbing alcohol.

[BrentD]

This one http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?productId=50370404

[Jokester]

Take some brake fluid, or oil, or wd40 and some hard cotton material like a sheet, or a pair of levis, cover the exposed areas well, then rub it until the color red ceases to stain the material. That will get rid of the rust.

Patina won't wipe off with oil and a rag.

That's perfect, thank you! I also heard 000 or 0000 wool will remove rust without affecting bluing, would that be good as well?


All I've ever cleaned my BP guns - rifles and pistols - with for 50 + years is hot soapy water with a dash of alcohol in it - followed by hot, clean water - a thorough drying off (a hair dryer helps heat up the metal during this process - especially C & B revolvers. Follow it up with a good coat of oil - sometimes I use WD40, sometimes 3 in 1, and even sometimes pure virgin olive oil which has been used for centuries to lubricate clocks, etc. There really is no need to buy pricey off the shelf cleaners.

As you did - check the firearm a day or so later to make sure there is no rusting happening. As far as "patina" goes . . . use some oil and very fine steel wool to remove any rusting. "Patina" will usually build up over time as a result of light rusting and removal of it - think of it as the steel having a "stain" left over from the rust removal.

Early muzzleloaders were often "browned" - which is actually a "controlled rust". Others often had their barrels "left in the white" - i.e. unfinished plain metal. Over time with exposure to weather during hunting, BP fouling on the hands touching the barrel, etc. . . . the barrel would take on "patina" so to speak. I once had an original 1861 patter Watertown contract rifled musket on which the barrel had a very heavy "browning" - no pitting or heavy rust but more like what a person would bet if they used Birchwood Casey's "Plum Brown". It was all "patina" due to years and years of use, exposure, being oiled down after use, etc.

From your photos (and nice rifle by the way!) your rifle looks to be "in the white" - i.e. bare metal. If you want to keep it that way, then after cleaning, use fine steel wool and oil and go over the metal surfaces to remove any light rusting from the BP fouling - wipe it down and then oil it well. Don't over think it and worry about it - just keep it clean, shoot it and have fun!

I don't know what the stock is on your rifle - I'm assuming probably black walnut military stock with an oil finish? If so, when it needs a good shining up, take some boiled linseed oil and cut it with "real" turpentine - about 2/3 build linseed oil and 1/2 turpentine - then take a soft cloth like and old tee shirt and apply some and rub it in to the wood. This finish has been used for many many years and again, you don't have to buy "pricey" stock finishes if you have the boiled linseed oil and turpentine on hand. I keep a small bottle mixed up just for rubbing my stocks down every once in a while. Don't use raw linseed oil as it will remain "sticky". Dispose of your immediately when done as if left on a bench, spontaneous combustion can occur from the oily rags. Put them in a plastic bag, tie it tightly and dispose of in the garbage can.

Thank you very much, very informative. And thank you, this rifle is an 1873 Remington Rolling Block in 50-70 gov't, my first BPCR rifle. It doesn't look like it in the pictures but I think there was some sort of bluing or browning at some point it just looks very worn and spotty. Regardless, thank you for the tips. I thought some fine steel wool would do the job but didn't want to ruin anything. As for the stock I have no idea what the wood is but it is definitely military (theres a 30th separate company of the New York state militia cartouche ). Now again maybe a stupid question is turpentine something I can get at a local hardware store? And same for linseed oil? Do I buy it raw and boil it myself? I know I could probably google all this but I much prefer an experts opinions.
Thank you!


This one http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?productId=50370404

Is this good to use as an overall lube and protectant? As in can I use this on the action and trigger group? Thank you!

[BrentD]

That's perfect, thank you! I also heard 000 or 0000 wool will remove rust without affecting bluing, would that be good as well?

Don't bet the farm on that!



[/quote] Now again maybe a stupid question is turpentine something I can get at a local hardware store? And same for linseed oil? Do I buy it raw and boil it myself? [/quote]

No, maybe, and NO!!

A little emphasis on the latter because you can easily start a fire. Real turpentine is not so important, in my opinion. Regular turp, whatever it is from the hardware store works fine for me. If you must have the real mccoy, find a good art supply store and pay about 100x more for it. The old Linspeed (not a misspelling) was recently made available again. It will work well, but hardware store boiled linseed oil does work. Finally, don't boil linseed oil unless you don't care about burning down your house. It isn't worth the risk, even with double boilers etc. A nice homebrew concoction is approximately equal parts of spar varnish, boiled linseed oil and turpentine, but the last ingredient will smell for weeks and take about that long to cure - so replace it with odorless mineral spirits if you wish.

Better than any of these is to buy a small amount of a good stock finish - I like Velvet Oil from Brownells - smallest can they sell. Wipe on just a little bit, wait a few minutes and wipe it off. Do this once a year for life - you will be good to go.




Is this good to use as an overall lube and protectant? As in can I use this on the action and trigger group? Thank you!
Yes, and yes. Don't use much. Spray it on a cleaning patch and apply sparingly.

[montana_charlie]

I'm no expert, but I know where you can find:
Pure gum spirits of turpentine, seven bucks a quart at Home Depot.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip-1-qt-Pure-Gum-Spirits-Turpentine-QGT69/100113509

[BrentD]

Cool! I'll have to pick some up on the way by.

Thanks

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Fine steel wool isn't bad, but it just might damage thin bluing, or rather bluing where rubbed portions are no longer bright metal but what patina genuinely ought to mean. You can get bronze wool from Brownells, and that really is safe.

You won't burn down your house boiling linseed oil if you do it outdoors, preferably on an electric hotplate and keeping your face and other portions of your anatomy well clear just in case. But I don't know how much good it will do you. What is usually sold as boiled linseed oil contains chemical driers, which are what makes it dry fairly slowly, while raw linseed oil will remain tacky halfway to forever. Proprietary gunstock oils such as Linspeed contain better driers, and will create a glossy finish much faster, though maybe at the expense of not penetrating so well into the wood. Perfection might be normal boiled oil first, then Linspeed or whatever to complete the finish.

It is true about linseed oil being a fire risk. Items recently oiled are among the things pilots aren't allowed to take in cockpits with piped oxygen. It is oily rags compacted together that just might cause spontaneous combustion in ordinary air, and separated and left in the air for a while they are no more dangerous than normal rags with paint on. But that still isn't a thing to have near a naked flame.

I like turpentine, which I used for the traditional Japanese urushi lacquering. It is worth having, as it will remove the most objectionable kind of self-adhesive label when no other reasonably inoffensive solvent will.

[Jokester]

Thank you for the replies everyone! I ended up getting big 45 metal cleaner and went at the barrel. Nothing came off. So I went at it with a strip of white t shirt and other than the oil stain nothing showed. I guess this is just the natural finish?

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First picture is of what I thought was rust. Second is of a spot without the "browning."

[Chill Wills]

Don't use raw linseed oil as it will remain "sticky". Dispose of your immediately when done as if left on a bench, spontaneous combustion can occur from the oily rags. Put them in a plastic bag, tie it tightly and dispose of in the garbage can.

I don't mean to be a bugger. Really I don't, but you have this part backwards.

I can explain at length if need be BUT do not confine those oily linseed rags BUT rather spread them out in the air and allow the products of decomposition, in other words heat and gas, to escape as it is slowly produced. Confining it will concentrate it and that is begging for disaster.

Respectfully, Michael Rix

[justashooter]

Lots of years ago many guns were browned instead of blued, and the ones that were blued used a chemical composition to do so, and many of these compositions would eventually turn brown also.

the compositions that resulted in browning were called "salt". the coating was called "rust". the difference is that it was thoroughly carded and buffed, then impregnated with oil, so that the rust didn't go deeper.

bluing is also done with a salt, and is a kind of rust.

patina is natural rust that has been handled to smoothness and then oiled over. the salt from a hunter's hands creates a natural patina wherever the gun is held during field carry. it's a sign that the gun was used, maybe needed, or even loved, and surely respected...

[griffiga]

On my old guns that don't have much blue left, after I have shot and cleaned them, I put on a good layer of car wax (pretty much any kind will do), then after it drys, buff it off like you would your car. Leaves a nice shine and down the road a few weeks if anything in the line of rust seems to appear, which is usually doesn't, it will wipe right off. I am involved with a historical re-enactment group and we do a lot of shooting, sometimes the weather turns bad on us, especially during our Fredricksburg shoot in December (commemorates the Civil War battle), Beings our Civil War muskets are shiny, I rub car wax on it before the shoot and any rust spots that appear because of moisture simply wipes right off afterward.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Strictly speaking chemists use the word salt for any ionic compound formed by the neutralization of an acid and a base. Ordinary sodium chloride has been used for rust bluing, but I think you would be skirting a rather fine line between achieving nothing and achieving fine pitting.

Rust, so easily achieved that you can do it without trying, is a combination of various red iron oxides, but mainly ferric oxide, Fe2O3, and therefore varies a little in appearance and characteristics. The bad one from our point of view is that it attracts moisture and rusts only what is already there, either forcing flakes of rust loose or rusting all the way through. What we want is black magnetite, Fe3O4, which is black, and protects the metal beneath from further rusting, like the oxides of aluminium or copper.

The commonest sort of bluing nowadays produces this directly, by boiling in a solution of chemical salts strong enough to raise the boiling point to a critical temperature, well above the boiling point of pure water. It is thin, in this form, and although it effectively passivates the steel when intact, it is easily scratched or worn through.

Rust bluing produces red oxide, which is converted to the desired black by immersion in boiling water. Many cycles of doing all this are usually required, making it no process for mass-production. It is thicker than hot bluing, and usually produces a very fine satin finish which is less easily worn bright. So it gives better protection against unwanted rust during use or abuse of the firearm. As well as brushing on a rusting solution (demanding the utmost cleaning if it is to be even), it can be achieved by the fumes of evaporating acid in a closed container.

[justashooter]

years ago I read about browning in dunlap's gunsmithing. the simplest formula called for regular table salt. it worked well enough on a CVA black powder kit gun I was building, producing a nice rich brown patina in about a week. it was about 8 stages of wrapping the barrel in a salt water soaked cloth and putting it into a box with a light-bulb inside for a day of sweating, then removing and carding with O steel wool for the first 4 cycles, then switching to 3O, and finally, 4 O wool with oil. wish I still had that gun...

[Tom Herman]

Rubbing alcohol is about 70% methanol I believe.

No. Rubbing Alcohol is Isopropyl Alcohol. Yes, the remaining 30% is water. You want to stay away from Methanol. It's a poison and can leave you blind.

[BrentD]

My mistake, isopropyl it is. What was I thinking? But CH3OH or C3H5OH, neither are safe to drink!

[WRideout]

Rubbing alcohol is about 70% methanol I believe. The rest is water. You could use "denatured alcohol" (ethanol with something toxic to make it undrinkable) and water instead. But I don't use any alcohol at all. No need for it.

WD40 Specialist is second only to Frog Lube at preventing rust in a test of about 50+ different gun oils. Other than Frog Lube, nothing even close. It is an excellent lubricant as well, esp when applied very thin.

The "something" mixed with ethanol is methanol; wood alcohol. It will make you blind drunk, literally.

Wayne