Getting ready to load Black in my Browning .40-65

[Pardini]

I've shot a lot of muzzleloaders, but this is going to be my first go at black powder cartridge. Probably had this rifle for near 20 years and only fired it 3 or 4 times and that was with smokeless. Really can't remember how well it even shot. In fact, the only time I remember shooting it was a gusting gale of 40 mph + at a SASS side match. We were shooting at a full size buffalo silhouette standing at 800 yards. It was a futile attempt, as even the guys that knew what they were doing couldn't hit it. So really, it's going to be a first time experience all the way around. Any advice to help me avoid the rookie mistakes would be appreciated.

I've collected most of what I need to load the black stuff and have read a lot about the process. Going to try finger seating the boolits, so they are just off the lands. My brass is formed from .45-70.

After I drop tube the powder in the case, I'll use a vegetable wad and compress the charge. I have .030 and .060 wads which should I try first?

Is the fact I have formed brass going to reduce the capacity of the case?

Will the powder spring back over time and make clambering the rounds more difficult?

I cast a Saeco 640 for the smokeless with a hard alloy, but from what I've read its likely the 400 grain Lyman Snover will be much better, so I've got one of those coming. What alloy should I start with? 40:1? I'll lube it with some Gato Feo.

I'm going to use Goex, cause that's what I've got for the muzzleloaders. I'll start with 2F, if that doesn't get me sufficient velocity would switching to 3F be safe and increase the velocity?

What's a proper size bull for targets at 100, 200 and 300?

[Don McDowell]

You'll need a compression die. You can use your 640's just lube them with a bp cartridge lube. The lyman snover is a good bullet, cast it from 20-1.
If using regular goex, start with 55 grs. of the 3f. If using ensyford 2f 59 or more grs.
.030 fiber wads are alright .060 maybe better.
Be sure and blow tube or wipe between shots.
Targets, SR-1 for 100, sr military for 200, and sr-3 for 300 are what the NRA BPTR rule book calls for.

[country gent]

For my CPA in 40-65 the load is Starline brass trimmed chamfered and debured, I also uniform the primer pockets and deburr the flash holes. A 400 grn nasa bullet from Old west moulds mould. A .060 wad .415 dia rubber fiber Napa gasket material and a typing paper wad ( newspaper works also). 58 grns of 2 f Old Ensford compressed with the rubber fiber wad to allow bullet to be hand seated depth. A light sizing with a bushing die just the length of the seated bullet. This load generally gives me 1225 fps and shoots very good in my rifle from 100yds to 500yds. I drop the powder charge thru a drop tube and then hand seat the wad and compress to needed depth. You might start around 54 grns and work up to 59-60 grns in 2 grn increments increasing compression and charge to see effects in your rifle.

[martinibelgian]

"Going to try finger seating the boolits, so they are just off the lands."
Don't - either finger seat with the bullet hard into the lands, or seat the bullet off the lands with neck tension. But no neck tension and bullet seated off the lands isn't bery accurate. Think about it - the bullet can change position for every round you shoot.

[semtav]

The first BP load I every worked up was a 40-65 Browning using 56 gr Goex 2F, Remington 45-70 cases and a Snover bullet. Was as accurate at mid range as any I've since shot. I used yellow tablet back for the wads so I'm sure the .030 wad would be fine. Only difference was I had neck tension on that load. Later I switched to finger seated loads but never with that particular load. The components you have are capable of very good accuracy but you may have to tweak a bit. I was using CCI-200 primers in that one. I think I was using 30-1 alloy. Use a good lube and proper blow tubing and you shouldn't have any problems.

Later if you want to use it for long range, 70 gr of swiss 1 1/2 and a 400 grain money bullet will get the job done.

[rr2241tx]

Here's my load. Three of us shot this at an 800 meter buffalo in unknown winds with good success. Brass is WCC M32 1967 formed, trimmed to length with Lee 45-70 Quick Trim then annealed, fire formed. WLR primer, 68 grains by weight OE 2F, .060 veggie wad, compressed to total depth of .535 from case mouth, Paul Jones 40 Creedmoor as cast in 30:1 weighing 420 gr, 45/45/10 lube, finger seated with one grease groove showing. This OAL puts the bullet about .030 off the lands of my rolling block.

[rfd]

this article may be of assistance to you - Loading BPCR Cartridges (http://www.buffalorifles.org/bpcr.html)

[rfd]

...

After I drop tube the powder in the case, I'll use a vegetable wad and compress the charge. I have .030 and .060 wads which should I try first?

doesn't much matter - it's all an experiment of sorts, particularly in the beginning. what you want to do is build some some starting cartridges that work well, and then take it from there, if need be.

Is the fact I have formed brass going to reduce the capacity of the case?

yes, if you work the brass by sizing you've minimally reduced some capacity, but also work hardened the brass by sizing and expanding and crimping, which will require annealing somewhere down the line.

Will the powder spring back over time and make clambering the rounds more difficult?

at detonation, the brass will expand to the chamber and then ever so slightly regress to allow extraction. that's a fire formed case. don't size it, use it as is for reloading. this will allow you to push seat the bullet and yield the best neck tension = none.

I cast a Saeco 640 for the smokeless with a hard alloy, but from what I've read its likely the 400 grain Lyman Snover will be much better, so I've got one of those coming. What alloy should I start with? 40:1? I'll lube it with some Gato Feo.

i used the lyman snover with great results in a roller .40-65, dip lubed with gato feo. i'd start off with a bit more tin, 1:30, but again, this is experimentation to see what yer rifle prefers best.

I'm going to use Goex, cause that's what I've got for the muzzleloaders. I'll start with 2F, if that doesn't get me sufficient velocity would switching to 3F be safe and increase the velocity?

dunno about using 3f, have used only swiss 1-1/2f lightly compressed, and goex 2f with lots more compression.

What's a proper size bull for targets at 100, 200 and 300?

that can vary a LOT.

we use an nra m-63 face for our 200 yard "fun" matches that has the following dimensions ...

Black Rings
X ring . . . . . . . . . . 2.85"
10 ring . . . . . . . . . . 5.85"
9 ring . . . . . . . . . . 8.85"
8 ring . . . . . . . . . 11.85"
7 ring . . . . . . . . . 17.75"

Non-Black Rings
6 ring . . . . . . . . . 23.85"
5 ring . . . . . . . . . 29.85"



...........................

[Pardini]

Thanks, for all the info.

A compression die is coming, as is a blow tube. Is there a particular technique to use with the blow tube?

What I meant by springback was in the powder/wad column. Meaning that after the powder is compressed does it tend to uncompress over time and increase the OAL to the point a finger seated boolit may not chamber.

[rfd]

blow tubing means getting moisture into the barrel (not chamber) to soften the bp residue after a shot is fired. primarily, lots will depend on the shooting venue climate conditions at the time of shooting, but there are other factors that might need consideration. bottom line is, yep, experiment.

you might wanna consider, or at least trial, wiping instead - a moistened patch or bore pig down the tube. some shooters find this a more consistent method of fouling control, no matter what the weather or venue conditions.

never heard of nor experienced any compressed bp cartridge increasing its oal on its own. with falling block actions and cartridges with oal's that engrave or are at near max oal, a cartridge seater can help heaps.

http://arizonasharpshooters.com/mediac/400_0/media/cartridge$20seaters$20003.jpg

[Randy C]

Thanks, for all the info.

A compression die is coming, as is a blow tube. Is there a particular technique to use with the blow tube?

What I meant by springback was in the powder/wad column. Meaning that after the powder is compressed does it tend to uncompress over time and increase the OAL to the point a finger seated boolit may not chamber.

I loaded 300 rounds last year that I did not get to shoot, I shoot 3 different weight bullets so I loaded a 100 of each for a match and to sight the gun in using my new sights. I will find out this year if they grew in length, I'm surprised no one has answered this for you yet, I'm going to take a hand loader and take my compression Dies with me just in case I need to adjust some of the loads. Ill check some before I leave to shoot also.

[rfd]

I loaded 300 rounds last year that I did not get to shoot, I shoot 3 different weight bullets so I loaded a 100 of each for a match and to sight the gun in using my new sights. I will find out this year if they grew in length, I'm surprised no one has answered this for you yet, I'm going to take a hand loader and take my compression Dies with me just in case I need to adjust some of the loads. Ill check some before I leave to shoot also.

well, i did answer his oal "growing" question - never personally observed that. obviously, this can only pertained to bullets that have no manner of crimp added.

[Randy C]

Thank you rfd Yes I finger seat my bullets for my 45 70 Sharps, Pardini said he was going to do the same.

[martinibelgian]

Never heard of any cartridge OAL growing either - and it sure never happened to me.... Now, if you're using something like a thick soft felt wad under the bullet, I can see this happening. But with a simple card or LDPE overpowder wad.... No. Sometimes, if you compress the powder with the bullet, you might get that impression - but that's only the bullet expnding from the compression force - and that will stop the cartridge from chambering too.

[rfd]

... if you compress the powder with the bullet ...

big no-no for me - don't wanna deform the bullet, particularly its base. there are many variations, but just compress the powder with the main wad, add in 1 or 2 newsprint wads, that's about it.

[Don McDowell]

Thanks, for all the info.

A compression die is coming, as is a blow tube. Is there a particular technique to use with the blow tube?

What I meant by springback was in the powder/wad column. Meaning that after the powder is compressed does it tend to uncompress over time and increase the OAL to the point a finger seated boolit may not chamber.

With a blow tube you blow slow deep breaths from way down deep in your lungs , so that the moisture from your breath travels up the barrel keeping the fouling soft.

You can experience with unsized cases, the wad holding air under it when and with a greasy lube on the bullet the bullet and wad can creep up a bit. This won't be a problem if the bullet is seated to touch the lands. The air being trapped under the wad is the reason I set the wad on top of the powder when compressing the powder charge.

[rfd]

...The air being trapped under the wad is the reason I set the wad on top of the powder when compressing the powder charge.

i give it a count of five under press/die compression, then raise the press arm and remove the case from the press shell holder.

[Don McDowell]

Yes that works.

[country gent]

When using a blow tube Dont inhale thru it the fouling tastes terrible. 1-3 slow long deep breaths thru it into the barrel helps alot to keep fouling soft. I mocify a case to fit the clear tube and it helps keep the chamber dry and clear. My tube is made from 3/8" ID tygon tubing. On most cases I drill primer pocket flash ole out to around .375 or so. I then turn down the rim on a 357 mag case to fit inside the case and press it thru creating a stem to fit into the tubing snugly. I have cases made for 38-55, 40-65, 45-70 and 45-90 that all fit the same blow tube.