FFL needed to paint or put a different finish on a receiver?

[6bg6ga]

Just wondering if a FFL would be neede to put a different finish/color on a receiver? I think the regs say its altering the receiver and therefore a FFL is needed. PLease help shed some light on this.

[B R Shooter]

I think technically it should go to an FFL. There is work being done to it and it is going to be held overnight or more. If any work can be done while the owner is there and it is not left,no FFL is required.

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

OH GREAT !!! Never gave that a thought,thanks for asking 6bg6ga.
Just wondering if a FFL would be neede to put a different finish/color on a receiver? I think the regs say its altering the receiver and therefore a FFL is needed. PLease help shed some light on this.

[Spector]

I believe B R Shooter is correct. If the firearm owner is there while the work is being done no FFL is required. If the owner leaves it with you overnight I believe you are required to have an FFL............Mike

[bosterr]

Who's to know what the original finish/color was in the first place? I would think as long as the serial number is neither obscured or altered in any way it would be fine.

[Shawlerbrook]

It not the finish or work, but the fact that the gun is technically being transferred in possession . The same way that you can only ship to an ffl holder or back to the owner .

[HB0708]

Full disclosure, I have done a little internet research and came up with the following. I do not study these laws and therefore do not know all of the surrounding context.

Sending your firearm to a gunsmith for repair or modification is NOT considered a transfer, although the ATF still recommends filling out a Form 5 (Even though not required, the government wants to be all up in your business...SHOCKER). LINK
(https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/repair-nfa-firearms/download)
To answer the OP's question, if the person doing the work is doing it as a business, then yes a license is required. LINK (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/license-needed-engage-business-engraving-customizing-refinishing-or-repairing-firearms)

The overnight thing refers to whether or not the firearm is required to be entered in the A&D log book. LINK

(https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-gunsmith-need-enter-every-firearm-received-adjustment-or-repair-acquisition-and)

[Artful]

BATFEForm 5 (5320.5) is only for NFA transfer items not regular firearms. ie suppressors, SBS, SBR, MG, DD etc
https://www.atf.gov/file/11371/download

And yes if the person doing the painting of firearms is doing it as a business the Fed's
want the person to have an FFL and log it in their register - technically even if you are
there with the firearm - as long as they are doing work on it.

Now you get into State Laws - if your giving possession of your firearm to the person even if not doing work and not a business, in some states you have to do the transfer thru an FFL.

[kywoodwrkr]

OP, I don't think I understang the question!
are you asking if you have to have a FFL to do this,
or are you asking if a person with an FFL would have to do it,
or if some one other than yourself was to do the work, do they need an FFL.

[reddog81]

Please clarify the question. It appears almost everyone assumed you are shipping the gun but I'm not sure why as the original post doesn't mention shipping.

I think you should be able to refinish a receiver. I know people who have ceracoated guns before. As long as you aren't destroying the serial number or doing something to change the gun from a rifle to a pistol or something like that you should be fine.

[flyingmonkey35]

Soooo. Dose that mean you have to force your gun smith to run a background check on himself every time you have him fix your gun?????

[rbt50]

I used to do his years ago and you do need a ffl if any part you are doing has a serial number.

[6bg6ga]

I thought my original question was to the point but I will clarify. I DID NOT mention shipping so therefore shipping doesn't have anything to do with my post. The question was does a person for example doing a cerakote on a AR receiver have to have a FFL. Again no mention of shipping. For example if I drove three blocks 2 tenths of a mile to Bob the Cerakoter does Bob have to have a FFL to coat my AR-15 receiver?

[Good Cheer]

Oh my, all those guys spray painting their AR's like model airplanes are altering the receivers???

[Hickory]

So, 80% receivers with no finish can be finished because it is not a firearm?

[HB0708]

From the ATF website:


Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.


[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11) and (21); 27 CFR 478.11]

So the way I read it, if it's you or your buddy, who doesn't do this kind of thing for money, then, no FFL required. If Bob the the Cerakoter is working as a business, then, yes, FFL required.

[Geezer in NH]

BATF new rules suck with no part required by the law makers.

The paint guys did get a quisling exemption.

As a former 07 FFL wonder why I got out of it?

[Artful]

BATF new rules suck with no part required by the law makers.

The paint guys did get a quisling exemption.

As a former 07 FFL wonder why I got out of it?

Got a link to this exemption?

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/license-needed-engage-business-engraving-customizing-refinishing-or-repairing-firearms

Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.
[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11) and (21); 27 CFR 478.11]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/2010-10-manufacturing-operations-maybe-performed-licensed-gunsmiths-under-certain/download

ATF’s long-standing position is that any activities that result in the making of firearms for sale or distribution, to include installing parts in or on firearm frames and receivers, and processes that primarily enhance a firearm’s durability, constitute firearms manufacturing that may require a manufacturer’s license. In contrast, some activities are not firearms manufacturing processes, and do not require a manufacturer’s license. For example, ATF Ruling 2009-1 (approved January 12, 2009) explained that performing a cosmetic process or activity, such as camouflaging or engraving, that primarily adds to or changes the appearance or decoration of a firearm is not manufacturing. Likewise, ATF Ruling 2009-2 (approved January 12, 2009) stated that installing “drop-in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms does not result in any alteration to the original firearms. Persons engaged in the business of these activities that do not constitute firearms manufacturing need only obtain a dealer’s license.

Although installing parts in or on firearms, and applying special coatings and treatments to firearms are manufacturing activities, the definition of “manufacturer” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) and 27 CFR 478.11 also requires that a person be “engaged in the business” before the manufacturer’s license requirement of section 923(a) applies. Thus, a person who manufactures a firearm will require a manufacturer’s license if he/she devotes time, attention, and labor to such manufacture as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured. If the person is performing such services only for a customer on firearms provided by that customer, and is not selling or distributing the firearms manufactured, the person would be a “dealer” as defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11)(B) and 27 CFR 478.11, requiring a dealer’s license, assuming the person is “engaged in the business” as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11 (i.e., “gunsmithing”).

[6bg6ga]

So, 80% receivers with no finish can be finished because it is not a firearm? Interesting...Wouldn't you have to finish the machining before a finish was applied? I would think so. If so, then one would need a FFL to put a finish on a 80% receiver once the machining was done. Or would they?Too many damn rules.

[Jim_P]

Corollary to Flying Monkey's question:

So, is the FFL required to do a background check when he transfers your gun/receiver back to you?

[Grampo]

Corollary to Flying Monkey's question:

So, is the FFL required to do a background check when he transfers your gun/receiver back to you?

No background check required on the return if the gun was logged in for gunsmithing. What's messed up is if a dealer takes a gun in on consignment, and the owner decides not to sell, the dealer has to have the owner fill out a 4473 and do a background check to give the gun back. Nothing the ATF does makes sense.

[Geezer in NH]

Sorry I was talking 07 manufactures license.

[mjwcaster]

No background check required on the return if the gun was logged in for gunsmithing. What's messed up is if a dealer takes a gun in on consignment, and the owner decides not to sell, the dealer has to have the owner fill out a 4473 and do a background check to give the gun back. Nothing the ATF does makes sense.

And this is one thing that many people do not think of, I know I didn't until it happened to a friend last year.
Even better is in states (IL) with a waiting period, and currently delayed background checks.
You have to wait 3 days here for a handgun and then may have to wait longer due to backlogged background checks by the state.
To get your own gun back.
Even better is if someone from another state drops a handgun off for consignment and then wants it back.
Legal for an IN resident to drive over and leave a gun for consignment in IL, but has to be transferred through an FFL in the owners state.
It can get expensive to get your gun back, shipping and xfer fees.

Make sure you do your research before consigning something.

[Lead Fred]

The ATF can only regulate the firearms transfers across state lines.

Anything that happens inside the state is none of their business.

Unfortunately, FFL holders just bend over and take it. So they can stay in business.

I a non FFL holder has refinished 100s of firearms. Wood & steel.

and I shall not be infringed