.310 Martini Cadet Rifle with pitted bore

[tinsmith]

:sad: My Brother just bought a .310 martini Cadet rifle for me. Wanted one for years! Neat little rifle in original condition with good wood and metal finish fading to brown. What a disappointment when I ran a bore brush and a couple of patches down the bore. Strong rifling, but pitting that would rate the bore only FAIR at best. So much for the shooter I had hoped for. Are replacement barrels available? (I think I already know the answer to that one). Does anyone know a gunsmith that can re-bore and line the barrel? Re-chambered into 32-20WCF would be acceptable. The only other option would be to sell it, probably to a custom gunsmith. Would be a shame to lose another original rifle to be sporterized.

[John Taylor]

I can do a reline for you or I may have a usable barrel in the shop. I made mine into a 32 S&W with an octagon barrel but I have not finished it yet.

[Earlwb]

Sounds like a nice find. Congratulations is in order even if the barrel is flaky. Your Martini reminded me that I still have a old Greener Martini in one of the weird British Egyptian bottleneck 12-14 guage calibers. I have entertained the idea of either getting brass and resizing it for it or getting it rebarrelled or something. It also has that weird firing pin too. But I never did anything with it. I am not sure if it is worth the effort either though. Aw heck, that reminds me I still have a Eqyptian .43 Remington Rolling block cadet rifle too. If I remember right it is missing the firing pin. Cadets didn't need it of course for marching drills etc. Man I am way behind the times on doing stuff or getting things done. I have had these things for ages.

[John Taylor]

Sounds like a nice find. Congratulations is in order even if the barrel is flaky. Your Martini reminded me that I still have a old Greener Martini in one of the weird British Egyptian bottleneck 12-14 guage calibers. I have entertained the idea of either getting brass and resizing it for it or getting it rebarrelled or something. It also has that weird firing pin too. But I never did anything with it. I am not sure if it is worth the effort either though. Aw heck, that reminds me I still have a Eqyptian .43 Remington Rolling block cadet rifle too. If I remember right it is missing the firing pin. Cadets didn't need it of course for marching drills etc. Man I am way behind the times on doing stuff or getting things done. I have had these things for ages.

That 12/14 is actually a 12 with a step in the chamber that would not allow standard 12 gauge shells. The firing pin had three prongs that would not let the firing pin hit the primer unless it had a groove around it to clear the prongs. I have made several to 45-70 by breaking the prongs off and installing a new barrel. Put a liner in one for 45-70 and installed sights but left the rest as dirty as when I got it. One persons comment " it's as ugly as a 2X4 but it sure shoots good".

[Frank46]

Why don't you have a liner for the 32-20 cartridge installed?. Cases are available from Starline and they are better than the winchester or Remington. Or better yet the 30-20 which is the same case but necked down to 30 caliber and better selection of 30 caliber molds as well. Mr. Taylor is the man for this job. This way you get the old barrel shooting regardless of which cartridge you choose and the windage and elevation adjustable rear sight and you should be good to go. Frank

[JeffinNZ]

I'd be inclined to shoot it first if you can. A soft lead bullet can be very forgiving of a pitted barrel. I can send you some projectiles if needed.

[Earlwb]

I am inclined to agree with JeffinNZ in that maybe you ought to give it a go and see how it shoots first. It may be quite good even with the pitted barrel. Only one way to find out.


That 12/14 is actually a 12 with a step in the chamber that would not allow standard 12 gauge shells. The firing pin had three prongs that would not let the firing pin hit the primer unless it had a groove around it to clear the prongs. I have made several to 45-70 by breaking the prongs off and installing a new barrel. Put a liner in one for 45-70 and installed sights but left the rest as dirty as when I got it. One persons comment " it's as ugly as a 2X4 but it sure shoots good".

I was wondering if one used a 12 gauge chamber reamer on it and reamed it out to regular 2 and 3/4 inch shell size if that would work or not. I originally got it with the idea of converting it to 45-70 too. But maybe leaving it as a shotgun might be better. I need to break it out again and check it out more closely. Yeah, it will look pretty ugly. Thanks for the information.

[John Taylor]

I was wondering if one used a 12 gauge chamber reamer on it and reamed it out to regular 2 and 3/4 inch shell size if that would work or not. I originally got it with the idea of converting it to 45-70 too. But maybe leaving it as a shotgun might be better. I need to break it out again and check it out more closely. Yeah, it will look pretty ugly. Thanks for the information.
It may have some trouble getting a 2&3/4 shell in the chamber because the sides are strait and the block may not go down enough to allow it to go strait into the chamber. I never tried it so I don't know. I did have some fun getting a cadet to work with 357 Max because of the long strait sides.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Here is the list of barrel liners available fairly recently from TJ's. It includes some, such as .17 caliber, which aren't listed on the Track of the Wolf website. My own choice in this situation, I think, would be the .310/.30, a cartridge of which I know no more than its existence. I think Bertram brass would work with a non-heel .308 bullet, but if not, you could certainly do something with the .312 groove liner made for the .30 Luger.

If I was lining a Cadet for a high pressure cartridge, I believe I would attempt to drill concentrically enough with the existing chamber to stop the liner in the chamber shoulder area, and thus have solid metal in the 3/4in. barrel threads area. The danger of swelling is often overrated, except with large-diameter cartridges, but it can't help to make sure and you will be looking at that rear end for a long time.

If I wanted to rebarrel I would give a lot of thought to one of the Green River octagonal barrels, with a rear diameter of about .85in., made for the 92 and 94 Winchesters.

163783

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I am inclined to agree with JeffinNZ in that maybe you ought to give it a go and see how it shoots first. It may be quite good even with the pitted barrel. Only one way to find out.


I was wondering if one used a 12 gauge chamber reamer on it and reamed it out to regular 2 and 3/4 inch shell size if that would work or not. I originally got it with the idea of converting it to 45-70 too. But maybe leaving it as a shotgun might be better. I need to break it out again and check it out more closely. Yeah, it will look pretty ugly. Thanks for the information.

There were, even in the damascus barrel days, shotguns chambered in this way, and the long forcing cones currently in vogue would make it easier. But those barrels were heavy, negating the supposed reason for doing it in the first place. Reaming the barrel out to 12ga is also a possibility. 12ga Greener GP barrels are heavy, since recoil means there is little purpose in saving weight over a double gun. But I am not sure if they are heavy enough, and even less sure about the 14ga police gun.

Remember, shotgun barrels are almost invariably swamped i.e. tapered in a curving line rather than a straight conical shape. Many a person who dents or pits his barrels near the muzzle and thinks "Now I will shorten it to a handy brush gun" (or even "Now I will sell it to the gullible as a coach gun") gets a nasty surprise when he fines the barrels much thinner than they were immediately behind the choke. Also dents may have been badly raised in the past and true cylindrical reboring will leave a thin spot. You really need the barrels checked out all over with a gunsmith's barrel thickness gauge before trying such a conversion.

[Earlwb]

Thanks for all of the information. I need to carefully examine mine closely before I do anything. But since Rocky Mountain Cartridge makes new brass shotshell cases, it may be more simple to just reload the cases for it than to change it. Besides it ought to still be spectacular to use black powder for the loads too.

Thanks again

[Bigslug]

My Cadet's got the original bore that had been reamed out to what I call the ".32-20 Kinda-Sorta" or the ".32-20" actual, in that to accommodate the original bore, the neck gets blown out to take a .320" bullet from a custom mold. It's durn near - but not quite - a straight wall, and it shoots really well. I've got 130 grainers going 1500 fps into about 2MOA. The .32-20 sizing die doesn't get used for this one - just flare and seat.

If I had an otherwise good one with a burned original bore, I'd probably see about .357 Magnum liner, or one of the longer, hotter .32 revolver rounds to have the "simpler life" of a straightwall case. Taylor is your man for that kind of work. Don't under any circumstances sell it. . unless of course you're selling it to me.:bigsmyl2:

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That .32-20 adaptation should work very well. Of course good Cadets are now collectible, and as brass is obtainable, shouldn't be treated that way. But for anybody with one that needs restocking or refinishing, or is a conglomeration of parts, a .30 Carbine reamer would probably give a convenient way of chambering it for .32-20 brass and a bullet of suitable diameter.

I wouldn't trust a reamer with .30in. pilot by hand, or even in a lathe that wasn't ideally trued up, without some kind of guidance, and a .30 Carbine reamer with special or interchangeable pilots is an added expense. But it ought to be possible to thin down some kind of metal tubing to make a temporary bore reduction for that purpose.

[rollmyown]

If your brother wouldn't object, I'd make a 218 bee, 25/20, 32/20 or 357mag out of it. It's great to have choices!

[John Taylor]

Might want to slug the bore to see what size bullet to shoot. I have seen variations from .314 to .318. Some of the cadets were re-chambered to 32 special which has a .320 or .321 bullet. This shows the strength of the little action to take the pressure of shooting an over size jacketed bullet. The original 310 used a healed bullet that is listed at .314 diameter. Green mountain makes an octagon 32-20 barrel with .312 groove and 1 in 20 twist. Last time I talked to them about it I was told when the supply runs out they will not be making any more, must be a slow mover.

[leadman]

If the barrel is of a large enough diameter have it re-rifled to a 38 special. This way it would not be something that could be hazardous if it found its' way into someone else hands. You would probably gain about 300 to 400 fps shooting the 38 Spl. out of a rifle. Would be easy on powder and lead.

I bought a 1917 Enfield in 30-06 . Bore was terrible and would not shoot well with anything. I make up some fire-lapping cartridges with 300 and 600 grit lapping compound forced into the boolit by putting the lapping compound on then rolling them between 2 of flat steel. Took about 6 or 8 shots to smooth it out decent. After a good cleaning and my reloads it now shoots 3" to 4" groups at 100 yards. The bore is large enough to shoot a .312" jacketed bullet.

[Earlwb]

So going with a 32-20 is not a bad idea. I had visions of maybe going with a .327 Federal magnum chamber in one, then one could shoot .32 S&W shorts, .32 S&W longs, 32 H&R magnums or the .327 Federal magnums in it. The .32 H&R and 327 magnum tend to be equivalent to shooting a 32-20 Winchester. The .32's tended to make great rabbit or small game guns in the past. I used to use a pistol and .32 longs for rabbit hunting when I was young. Of course I was sort of bummed when the modern pistols chambered for the .327 Federal Magnum were all short barrel revolvers. They didn't make any longer barreled versions. I still have a H&R revolver with a 7.5 inch barrel chambered in .32 H&R magnum that is a great shooting gun.

[Bigslug]

Might want to slug the bore to see what size bullet to shoot. I have seen variations from .314 to .318. Some of the cadets were re-chambered to 32 special which has a .320 or .321 bullet. This shows the strength of the little action to take the pressure of shooting an over size jacketed bullet. The original 310 used a healed bullet that is listed at .314 diameter. . .

With bore diameters all over the map like that, it kinda makes you wonder what the story was there - if someone at BSA, Greener, or in the Aussie Cadet program got or sent the wrong memo. It's not like shooting lead bullets in falling block single shots was a new concept in the 1910's. Mine slugged out at, IIRC, .3185, and the only thing stock .32-20 ammo is good for in it is fire forming the brass to the custom chamber - even at 10 yards most of them will hit the target sideways. But the ultimate solution is a happy one:

163919 163921 163922

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Just buy more Martini's! This photo shows the .310 round against a fireformed 32/20 and a 32/20 before fireforming.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/IMG_2478_zps854c0f3b.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/IMG_2478_zps854c0f3b.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Martini_Lots_zps69a15cdd.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/Martini_Lots_zps69a15cdd.jpg.html)

[skeettx]

Interested in this thread
Tinsmith, what are you going to do?
Mike

[cwheel]

Nice thing about the Martini Cadet platform, it can sure be turned into many different cals and work well. Ours came mail order in the late 1950's or early 60's. They rebored the original barrel to .357 mag, barrel still has the original .310 stamps and other factory markings along side a .357 stamp. Works very well for noticing small differences in reloading 38 special and .357 loads and fine tuning cast reloads. The importer did the rebore work before selling them in the American Rifleman mag. .357 rebore removes enough metal to get a fresh bore and chamber but not be to large for the action. A big advantage of .357 is cases to reload are much easier to come by, I think that's why it still sits in my safe after 3 generations, and it still comes out and fires once and awhile.
Chris

[Mr Humble]

You should try fire lapping it first. I have brought back several rifles with dark bores with this method. Most recent was a 30-30 that was sold real cheap as the bore was said to be a black hole. A good cleaning brought it back to fair+ and a complete run of fire lapping brought it back to shiny, albeit a bit loose. Shoots as well as any ironsighted 94 with .313 cast boolits.

[rollmyown]

You didn't say that you have brass, dies and an appropriate sized heeled bullet mold. If you don't then by the time you buy all of that you're well on the way to re boring or re barreling. Don't get me wrong, the 310 is a nice thing to own and shoot but it's a big outlay to shoot if you're starting from scratch. I have one and the gear to reload for it but it doesn't get used because my eyes are toast and the iron sights sadly look like blurry sights. I still want to make a 218 bee or a 25/20 out of one and scope and re stock it which I guess will cost about $1500. Money is tight for me now so it will be some time away. When I do it, it will be with a cadet with a rotted out bore.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

So going with a 32-20 is not a bad idea. I had visions of maybe going with a .327 Federal magnum chamber in one, then one could shoot .32 S&W shorts, .32 S&W longs, 32 H&R magnums or the .327 Federal magnums in it. The .32 H&R and 327 magnum tend to be equivalent to shooting a 32-20 Winchester. The .32's tended to make great rabbit or small game guns in the past. I used to use a pistol and .32 longs for rabbit hunting when I was young. Of course I was sort of bummed when the modern pistols chambered for the .327 Federal Magnum were all short barrel revolvers. They didn't make any longer barreled versions. I still have a H&R revolver with a 7.5 inch barrel chambered in .32 H&R magnum that is a great shooting gun.

I'm not sure with which rifle you mean. If it is the Greener police gun, you would have about the largest and clumsiest .32-20 there is, though pretty good as a short-range benchrest rifle. If it is for a Cadet with the original bore, it could probably be loaded with bullets of the right size for the bore, but in many examples the undersized bullets of commercially loaded .32--20 would be a problem.

In a Cadet rebarrelled with the right bore diameter, the .32-20 or any of the other cartridges you mention should be excellent. The .327 Federal will give higher pressure than the others, but less than a lot of people use without mishap in the Cadet action. The firing-pin and its hole might be larger than ideal for that round, but I think a good fit of pin to hole is what matters most.

[Earlwb]

Sorry, I was thinking of the OP's original post about the Martini .310 cadet.

[tinsmith]

Been away from the computer for a few days. Went to 4-H training to become a muzzle-loading rifle instructor. Learned a lot of good info for teaching young shooters to enjoy black powder shooting. Learned a few tips to improve my shooting also! Even though I've been shooting and building muzzle-loaders for many years, with an open mind, we can all learn.
Now to my Martini Cadet: I'm amazed and thankful for all the input on this interesting project rifle! I'm considering re-lining to 32-20 or re-boring to 357 Mag. Bushing the firing pin hole is an added job probably out of my skill level. I am in any event going to retain the original stock, sights and external condition. Should make a fun cast boolet rifle.